Mideast Ceasefire

People have made various comments that don’t hold water. Most seem to hate the arabs who kill but justify the Israeli’s who kill, then when i’ve pointed out the injustice in that, and in the whole region, they’re like ‘shut up with your causality’. Sorry but it isn’t as simple as JEW GOOD and MUSLIM BAD.

This is my thread, and i’d rather there be no replies at all than 4 pages of people saying ‘don’t justify what’s happening in the middle east’. This is exactly what it’s about. This is a thread of intelligent analysis, understanding, and discussion of solutions. If you want to bitch about one racial minority or another, or how vile a violent act is, do it in another thread, or in your head please.

If we want peace- the following must happen.

We need a new agreement about the direction of the whole country (treaty). Ehud Barak said in 1998 that the aim of the Oslo discussions was to institute a “permanent neo-colonial dependency”. He was Israeli Prime Minister. That is not cool. I can see why no one would want to honour this treaty if they were on the dependency end of it.

Gaza needs to swell massively, so it’s inhabitants have living space.

Israel needs to chill with all it’s ‘targeted assassinations’ of PA leaders. Palestinian militants need to stop blowing shit up, it clearly got attention for their cause. Job done. They will never defeat the whole western world who rely upon Israel’s policing of the oil market.

Jerusalem must be divided among them, each holds it as sacred, yet each will kill endlessly over it.

ALL the policies of Ariel Sharon are to be scrapped- the wall, the ariel settlements etc in the West Bank. He was a bastard who had no concern about the value of a human life. Home demolitions must stop. Shipments of armaments by the US to Israel must stop. (surely they have enough already, more than 1 bullet per palestinian?) Aid must be restored to Hamas, who are to be controlled by a willing and able, honest and powerful mediator (not America) whom they fear the wrath of.

When they have no money (often) they go to another country and further implicate themselves, getting cash from radical fucker who want to murder a lot. With aid this would not happen. Though they may admittedly still want to blow shit up. Then we have a problem. But what’s the alternative? Not let poor palestinians eat? Israel blows up various arab countries daily, with sophisticated weaponry, and deadly effectiveness.

Both sides’ youth must be exposed to history that validates the other’s grievances, in order to keep an emotional balance, and build sympathy in the new generations, so they can be saying “mum, dad, can we stop fighting? (insert arab/jewish name here) is my friend” etc.

Palestine as a whole must get bigger. They have like 15% of their country remaining, and Israel is in the middle of it, and won’t let them go between. It’s like the Berlin Wall. Palestine is not post ww2 Germany. If Palestine is connected, not floating in a sea of Israel, Israel could better police itself, and be safe from bombings etc.

Like vroom said, “non-fanatic citizens need to assert themselves and change things to allow peace to develop” in both affected countries.

Israel cannot eternally welcome all the world jewry. The place is not big enough. If the world Jewry want a place for themselves and themselves only, perhaps they should have checked noone was living there already. Or they could buy the moon and live there, who knows

Any other ideas? Perhaps we could resolve all the shit…

LOL. Good luck “controlling” a thread!

When terrorism stops there will be a chance for movement forward…

Why not just wish for magic green fairies to come and fix everything? It would be much more likely than the silliness you typed.

Your plan is simply, “How to destroy Israel in less than 15 years.”

[quote]vroom wrote:
LOL. Good luck “controlling” a thread!
[/quote]

Just on principle, I’m gonna commit an act of terrorism and hijack this thread for a second to possibly help our friend understand real life better.

So anyway:

Returning home from work, a blonde was shocked to find her house ransacked and burglarized. She telephoned the police at once and reported the crime. The police dispatcher broadcast the call on the radio, and a K-9 unit, patrolling nearby was the first to respond. As the K-9 officer approached the house with his dog on a leash, the blonde ran out on the porch, shuddered at the sight of the cop and his dog, then sat down on the steps. Putting her face in her hands, she moaned, “I come home to find all my possessions stolen. I call the police for help, and what do they do? They send me a BLIND policeman.”

dannyrat:

See? Doesn’t terrorism suck? It proves nothing but the ill intentions of the terrorist. You had the chance for a good thread to start up here, but now it’s all marred by my stupid hijacking. What if I decide to post another blonde joke? Are we gonna negotiate about me stopping the blonde jokes? Are we gonna debate about why I felt compelled to hijack the thread in the first place? Is it going to do any good whatsoever? :slight_smile:

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
dannyrat:

See? Doesn’t terrorism suck? It proves nothing but the ill intentions of the terrorist. You had the chance for a good thread to start up here, but now it’s all marred by my stupid hijacking. What if I decide to post another blonde joke? Are we gonna negotiate about me stopping the blonde jokes? Are we gonna debate about why I felt compelled to hijack the thread in the first place? Is it going to do any good whatsoever? :)[/quote]

To be fair, lothario was here first anyway. It was his forum and it was wrong for dannyrat to try to post here anyway.

Question: why should Israel agree to a cease-fire to an escalation that they didn’t even start?

Cease-fires are bullshit that solve nothing. Every cease-fire, every peace accord that the Israelis have agreed to has been nothing but talk, with no follow-through by the other parties. Doesn’t matter how much Israel concedes, the attacks do not stop.

There can be no peace without victory. Doesn’t matter what side you personally are on, that’s the truth. If you happen to be on the Muslim fanatics’ side, that’s a shame, because you’re going to lose.

personally i like blonde jokes. I just feel very frustrated at the moment with listening to vroom vary statements of ‘terrorism is bad’ (which we all know) and ‘israel must exist’ which is less absolute, but true anyway. If people think i’m a coward, terrorist lover, or silly idealist, fuck you. That is not true, what are your peace plans for the mideast? It seems to be established that i know a lot about the’causalities that nobody fucking cares about’. So i tried to gather some people who might want to exchange/discuss ideas. None of you that have so far posted in my hijacked thread (oh, the shame, i feel dirty and used) have said anything. Really, what has anyone except a terrorist-lover said in all of these similar topics? You’re all just indoctrinated that 1) The holocaust was bad (not forgetting the diaspora, which was almost as bad) so in your reason (?) now, noone may criticise, or restrain the vast sophisticated destruction that the israeli must generate EACH DAY, FOREVER, just to survive in his precarious, incongruous position.

I DONT HATE JEWS. I DON’T HATE ISRAELIS. I HATE INJUSTICE, MURDER, THEFT, TERRORISM. THERE WOULD BE NO TERRORISM IF THERE WERE NO STRUGGLE. DO YOU EVEN SEE THAT?

I probably would have thought the same as you you all at first, too. It seems logical that the authority (Israel) should logically put down the rebel (intifadas, leading to terrorists/freedom fighters, leading to deaths in the civilian population).

But, wait! Hang on… each side- kills- the other sides- youth- indiscriminately! Each side- wants more, and more, and more! Not just the terrorists. The ONLY DIFFERENCES between the terrorists and the IDF (both want ‘their’ land back, each will murder for it, each have murdered massive percentages of civilians, if you don’t believe, read the about the town of Jenin when they threw rocks. Oh wait, there is no town of Jenin anymore) is that one side was populated by persecuted jews, have international backing for this very same reason, and massively destructive american sponsorship. If you believe there is any great distance between the moral positions of these countries (like when the rabbi said ‘they told them to get out of dodge’ etc- so i can come to see you, say get down i’m going to shoot up your whole existence, then do it? No, it is my contention taht to preserve life, the man with the GREATER capacity for destruction (which in this case is the Israeli) must be subject to greater controls on said destruction, just because of the superiority of his weaponry (not due to a terrorist sympathy/ ‘Anti-semitism’, the speaking of which automatically disqualifies you from being an educated contributor to this, or any other thread on the matter- as the anti-semitic designates prejudice against speakers of the semitic langauges, which includes arabic- you all sound very anti-semitic to me)

Just like the terrorists of Palestine/lebanon/syria etc claim proudly (and without any reasonable capacity to fulfill their claims, you ignorant fucks) to aim to wipe ‘israel off the map’,wait, oh, oh, look!!! What is happening to this innocuous country of ‘Palestine’ ever since the jew set his eyes upon it and claimed he wanted it for himself? YES THAT’S RIGHT IT’S DISAPPEARING, ISRAEL DOESN’T JUST THREATEN, IT IS ACTUALLY WIPING PALESTINE OFF THE MAP.

It is my claim that neither side should be allowed to just take the country. If 2 peoples are to live there, there must be an agreement that is reasonable for each side. that is what my post was trying to begin/discuss.

It is my contention that the West has “salved its conscience with stolen arab land”. Nazis tried to remove the jewish race from existence. Then, once they were rescued from this dread fate, what was the next thing they do? Decide (rightfully) that they need a unified home for jews, since the history of diaspora speaks poorly of the integrations they had attempted. Notice how none of this had anything to do with the arabs of Palestine?

Then, (repeating this) the proto- eretz-Israeli’s remembered a house that their grandmother had lived in, thinking that since she wrote an autobiog about it, they were rightful claimants. IT JUST DOESN’T WORK LIKE THAT. They didn’t consider that someone was living there (they didn’t really hate the arab i’m sure, but who can say they respected him, or his wishes, as we should do for all humans, in order to avoid wars? This is the basic lesson of history).

Seriously, look at this 1949 Armistice Agreements - Wikipedia

And see particularly how Gaza (west in the picture) has diminished in size, even though this has nothing at all to do with the tribe of Israel. Know also that the eastern area ‘West Bank’ or ‘Judea and Samaria’ is supposed to be palestinian, yet the settlement rate of Israelis is 4x faster than in in Israel itself! Imagine if 70 Million Brazilians tried to fit into Manhatten. It’s just ridiculous.

Lets also remember that a conservative estimate is that Israel now has increased their control to effective authority over 73% of the land, 80% of the water, 97% of security arrangements in what was left of Palestine after the 1967 war. THAT IS APART FROM THE ISRAEL GIVEN TO THEM, AND APART FROM THE LITTLE BIT MORE THEY (RIGHTLY?) TOOK FROM THE COCKY ARABS WHO TRIED TO WAR WITH THEM. THAT IS 80% OF THE WATER, 73% LAND IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY! That is an empire

If you cannot see that some of these things must change if Arab generations to come are to forget the fanaticism which so terrifies everyone, never speak about current affairs again. Stick to weightlifting.

If anyone has anything intelligent/pertinent to say, please use this thread to say it in.

Did anyone even read the first post? |Why not? Every one’s just making savvy jokes/being oppositional. Listen, I’m on neither side. I don’t hate any race, or have any prejudice.

What the fuck kind of world do you live in Rabbi? “Question: why should Israel agree to a cease-fire to an escalation that they didn’t even start? Cease-fires are bullshit that solve nothing.” I dont even want to get into that escalation etc, but the simple answer= less people die that way. Life is precious, any life. Before you say your sanctimonious shit in ignorance, do me a favour. close you eyes and imagine the effects of a) an arab suicide bomber. make the victim a young, pretty jewish girl. Then, b) imagine a young, pretty arab girl (without rags, if you wish) who has been hit by an Israeli rocket (supplied by the US, as all Israeli munitions are). Really focus on it, see all the horrible things of war. Keep them shut, until you’re so sick of the thought you might cry. Now imagine you could, if not stop that (ambitious) at least slow/reduce the frequency of it. Now shut up about ‘ceasefires do nothing’ you fucking zealot. Does everyone agree with the rabbi’s quote here? I consider this to be evil in its neglect of human life.

“Every cease-fire, every peace accord that the Israelis have agreed to has been nothing but talk, with no follow-through by the other parties. Doesn’t matter how much Israel concedes, the attacks do not stop.” Not a historical fact. If this is the premise you build your prejudice upon, then you need to think again. The ‘devil’ Arafat on numerous occasions agreed to treaties and stuff, Ehud Barak in particular was good at only signing the treaty that looked more like a wishlist to father christams than any kind of balanced negotiation. Look it up. Don’t speak any more in ignorance. Newspaper journalists don’t know anything about this, except which missile hit where, fired by who.

“There can be no peace without victory.”
I agree. why does your victory have to be one of bloodshed. i propose that we could try harder to find a solution that each side will be satisfied with, but for this to happen we have to stop listening to our prejudices, and rationalise carefully. Lives are at stake.

“Doesn’t matter what side you personally are on, that’s the truth. If you happen to be on the Muslim fanatics’ side, that’s a shame, because you’re going to lose.”

The Muslim fanatics would definitely lose in any open war, i agree. Luckily i’m thousands of miles away from this war, and don’t play any part in contributing to it. My govrenment hasn’t even given them weapons for a long time. I feel quite detached from the outcome, i just know far more of the truth than you apparently do, and feel saddened by such constant despair. Don’t act as if i’m a muslim/commie/scapegoat of the week

dannyrat … have you NOTHING better to do with your time?
Your understanding of history is flawed, your reading of theology minimal, your grasp of International Relations poor and your knowledge of politics abysmal.

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
…why does your victory have to be one of bloodshed. i propose that we could try harder to find a solution that each side will be satisfied with, but for this to happen we have to stop listening to our prejudices, and rationalise carefully.[/quote]

You aren’t paying attention yet. That’s okay, maybe I can help:

We’ll get you a hat or something, and then stuff will start to make more sense maybe.

Big Hint: it takes two to tango, but only takes one to start a fight. As soon as the respective military/terrorist folks start thinking “wow this dying stuff really sucks,” then it will calm down over there. No amount of yelling for a ceasefire is going to help if they are still lobbing grenades and shit at each other – all you do is look useless and impotent.

There is NO REASONING with a combatant who doesn’t use logic. Make sense?

[quote]dannyrat wrote:

What the fuck kind of world do you live in Rabbi? “Question: why should Israel agree to a cease-fire to an escalation that they didn’t even start? Cease-fires are bullshit that solve nothing.” I dont even want to get into that escalation etc, but the simple answer= less people die that way. Life is precious, any life. [/quote]

What kind of world do I live in? The real one.

Cease fires, in this situation, have been anything but. There is a demonstratable pattern on the part of the Muslim terrorists to attack, call for a cease fire, re-arm and re-group, and then start attacking again. Tell me, what cease fire has held without being broken by a Muslim attack?

The people that start the most shit are now asking to stop what they have started? Nonsense. Cowardly, deceptive nonsense. They started it, they now get it finish it.

I don’t like seeing innocents die on either side. I DO like seeing Hezbollah and Hamas members die particularly gruesome deaths, and the sooner enough of those particularly gruesome death occur to make Hezbollah and Hamas stop trying to bring about the destruction of Israel, the sooner peace can come and the sooner no more innocents will have to die.

It’s rather hard to avoid civilian casualties when your enemy almost exclusively hides among the civilian population.

Right… fuck this. Nah coolexec i ain’t got anything better to do, just got laid off at work and i was trying to bring a little light to this discussion. You’re right, my reading of theology is minimal, but I know there’s some stuff going down to the effect of psalm 167- “Happy is he who pays you what you’ve done to us! Happy is he who takes your little ones and smashes them on the rock!” (from the bible, a prophecy if you will about bitter Judaeans after being conquered by Babylon).

I don’t want to waste my time any more to this end, the truth remains, i’ve articulated it at length (more than i wanted to) And your whole answer is a war that can never end (since all arabs blend together or something).
I know what i know, I don’t need anyone to validate it.

I actually agree with what you wrote in your later paragraphs lothario, If you read what i wrote in my first post above, these are preconditions of people not wanting to fight. You all seem to think that you can just push through any resistance whatsoever, and everyone will bow to authority. I don’t believe a subjugated race will bow. Realistically, the best that can happen for Israel in such a scenario- The Arabs are militarily crushed (like the Jews of the middle east 2800 or so years ago) then will ferment their bitterness into a religious book (like the old testament) and will through the cyclical nature of history again arrive at a favourable position in teh world, then they’ll act just liek Israel does now- with impunity and hatred of all goyim

Now you can use this thread to all suck each others cocks in a row, i don’t care i’m bored of your ignorance

Danny, poor soul, you aren’t extolling the truth, you are instead giving us your opinion and stating it is “the truth”.

While some of the Arab world still haven’t accepted the fact that a chunk of land was carved out for Israel, it was.

Since the beginning of the carve out, people have been pissed off (as you are so astutely bringing to our attention). These people threatened and attacked the newcomers, who responded in kind.

This has spiraled in an ongoing way because, and this is important, some people in the Arab world still haven’t accepted the fact that a chunk of land was carved out for Israel.

There is virtually nothing Israel can do, and continue to exist, that will placate the terrorist element that is not willing to suffer the existance of Israel.

Populations in the region support these extremists, implicitly or explicity, and then whine about the fact that warfare is inconvenient to their lifestyle. Well, surprise, terrorism is war, so if you support one, you get the other.

As you have been educated many times now, when the Arab world decides to allow Israel to exist in peace, the region will have peace. Until then, you can tell us why you think terrorists are pissed off until the cows come home, but it doesn’t change the facts.

Anyway, I am sure there are other people with greviances on the planet, maybe you could read a few books and tell us the history of their greviances so we can feel sorry for them and then they can start conducting terrorist activities for evils perpetrated generations ago?

I mean, there’s still peace on the planet somewhere isn’t there? Your work can’t be done yet!

This isn’t the first time in the history of the world this sort of thing has happened. People fight for and take land. It may not be pretty, but it was a big way of life very recently and still goes on today.

Hezbollah are terrorists. They are supported by Damascus and Tehran. If you ask me, it is Lebanon that shouldn’t be allowed to exist. The Lebanese suck the coin out of everyone and allow their country to be a haven for every thug, terrorist, you name it, in the world. Talk about a puppet regime.

Saudi Arabia wants us to step in and help. Why don’t you rich arabs help police your own? And don’t get me started on your sponsorship of terrorism, just because you are great at money laundering doesn’t mean everyone doesn’t know you are in on it and playing both sides so as to save your royal asses.

Peace in the Middle East. I don’t think so.

What would happen if Israel would cease to exist? Would the fighting stop, would the world become a different and utopic place? I doubt it. Sunni vs. Shiites for one. The economy of oil and war is what keeps this region rolling. When the oil dries up or the need dries up, then we’ll start to see some change towards peace. Oddly enough that will coincide with our meddling asses pulling out of there.

Danny - Your idea about the moon is probably the best.

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Did anyone even read the first post? |Why not? Every one’s just making savvy jokes/being oppositional. Listen, I’m on neither side. I don’t hate any race, or have any prejudice.
[/quote]

You demonstrate your hatred of Israel in just about every post you have made regarding the middle east.

You seem to want to paint Israel with the same brush as the Arabs/Islamo-nazi-terroists.

Personally - I could care less how many damn term papers you have written on the subject. It doesn’t prove you know anything about the middle east, other than you know how to find books in a library and do internet searches.

Israel is a sovereign country - like it or not. They have every right to exist within their borders.

Beginning with the war of 1967, on through the 70’s - Israel has taken land that would create buffers between them and their enemies.

No where do you find any record (in modern times) of them living to destroy an entire race of people. The same cannot be said of the Islamo-nazi-terrorists. In fact, Iran’s “president” who is a terrorist in his own right has publicly called for the destruction of Israel.

Peace in the middle east will come when Israel defeats their enemies. Right now - Lebanon needs to be leveled, and the Israeli flag raised there. Then Syria needs to meet the same fate.

The middle east is scared shitless of Israel. That’s why the Islamo-nazi-terrorists target little girls and old women - they are to scared to stand up and fight like men.

For that - I have no respect for them, and hope they meet the painful agonizing death that they have coming.

I really wnat to get away from this subject because, as at least one has noticed, i’ve spent far too long.
I far prefer talking to you, vroom, than some others. At least you have some moderation in your expression of what is a biased and self-fulfilling prophecy.

I admit i have expressed my own opinion. That much is sure. but my opinion is stuff like the 1st post in this thread. This is my ideals being typed, and you can dismiss it. What irritates me is that not one person has read all the evidence i’ve quoted of the maladies suffered by arabs, and said something like "Yeah, maybe we should tell Israel not to bully/enslave whole races, as well as simply identifying that said enslaved races act irrationally, violently, and generally in ways i don’t endorse.

I have a question for you vroom. are your family jewish? You seem blind to anything other than Israel-good, Palestine-bad. Please speak to me with some respect (nothing special, just know i’m not a liar/cunt/terrorist/pussy/idiot), as i try to do the same for you.

what is fact, is stuff about the historical patterns which emerge when you study this intensely (and depressingly, i might add) as i had to to pass my course.

It’s just like cassandra, i’ve read forests worth of material showing the sequence of a) pathetic arab attacks, b) comprehensive arab defeat at the hands of the Israeli military might, and c) the arabs evolve an entirely insidious next stage, like bacteria. This has all lead to nothing

The conflictts of the past give me no doubt that the arabs who fight the |Israeli’s in a military way have no hope of succeeding (or even living), yet, as i’ve tried to show, this situation is immensely complex and ambiguous, and can’t be reduced to a maxim or position.
It is predicated upon hugely inferior arab living conditions, and internationally recognised war crimes, which are as bad as terrorism (in my opinion). When you reread my posts (if you do, i don’t presume) you’ll see a prevailing air of confusion, simply because there is no peace

The above is the qpassage i wish you’d quote in your reply if there is one, not just taking a weak expression and applying it out of context so i look like i love terrorism. This is the foundation of my understanding0 anyone who summises the war in 2 paragraphs or less isn’t worth listening to.

I have been treated like shit, criticised, degraded, all kinds of non-topic insults. I can take this. I’d like to see some of you in the street though, i don’t care how much you can press…
The point is, I feel now like i’ve been demonised, for the sole reason that i tried to describe the futility and murky ambiguity of the situation

“As you have been educated many times now, when the Arab world decides to allow Israel to exist in peace, the region will have peace. Until then, you can tell us why you think terrorists are pissed off until the cows come home, but it doesn’t change the facts.” Ok, i’ve been educated. I knew this already, not to diminish your influence on my youthful mind (so you don’t get shitty).

But just as i accept that, don’t feel i have an alterior motive for saying- the balance presented by Palestinians/and other jew resistant arab just submitting, would not be acceptable in any kind of ethical way. as i’ve shown, basic needs have been hijacked.

Israel holds 80% of all the water available to this ‘bination’, and sells it at a far greater price to arabs, than it does to jews. This is a fact. Combined with the fact that they have complete (military and economic) control over whoever gets jobs in the region, things are desperate. They also have captured all of Jerusalem, depriving the arabs of worship. I know this is probably due to a terrorist threat, but that is not the starting point for the conflict.

Certainly, if someone deprived me of water (forgetting the past, the evil of terrorism/ everything else) I would surely fight them. Answer me unconditionally. Wouldn’t you? You are in a DESERT, and due to wars your ancestors foolishly got into, and lost, in the hope of expelling a new ‘neighbour’, current generations have no indigenous crops, water or jobs, that aren’t controlled by Israel. Like Ehud barak said (oops) “Israel are setting up a permanent neocolonial dependency.”
Read that. He was Israeli PM, at the time when the current treaty for movements toward peace were signed. (oslo)

“This has spiraled in an ongoing way because, and this is important, some people in the Arab world still haven’t accepted the fact that a chunk of land was carved out for Israel.”
They should accept this. It’s there, they’re not going away. The chunk of land has swelled due to arab intransigence and isareli military, from 20% in 1947, to what is represented on the map in a link in an earlier post (and more)

Please put aside your prejudices. I doubt you will show me anything new (bet you quote that) only because i have been exposed to such intense study of it, but if you listen, you’ll enrich your understanding, then we can discuss this, and i’ll hear you out

Rainjack, actually hear what i’m saying.I hate terrorist murderers just as much as i hate israeli generals who order murders. It’s very much the same, they have different resources, but each murders, don’t doubt that.

BTM, i fully agree, lets see what happens to the region when the oil runs out. US military aid to Israel will too, i bet. Like i said in an earlier post, no doubt Israel are hard as nails now… in 5o years, they’ll be bullies floating in a sea of arabs who hate them for all their power.

It’s as much in the interest of israel to find peace as it is for palestine. Remember that

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
I admit i have expressed my own opinion. That much is sure. but my opinion is stuff like the 1st post in this thread. This is my ideals being typed, and you can dismiss it. What irritates me is that not one person has read all the evidence i’ve quoted of the maladies suffered by arabs, and said something like "Yeah, maybe we should tell Israel not to bully/enslave whole races, as well as simply identifying that said enslaved races act irrationally, violently, and generally in ways i don’t endorse.[/quote]

I don’t think your characterizations are correct. Yes, there have been tough conditions imposed on people in the region, on both sides, but due to the conflict there hasn’t been much choice. I think you are allowing yourself to demonize Israeli’s just as you accuse me of demonizing the Lebonese (more on that it in a moment).

I don’t even have a Jewish relative in my extended family tree. Anyway, why would I imagine Palestine to be bad? I think terorrists, and those that conduct terrorism, are bad. Unless you are saying everyone in Palestine is a terrorist? The tactics chosen to resist Israel have forced us down the path we have taken to today. Yes, at times Israel might have been able to make different choices as well.

Again, I don’t think drumming up sympathy, for either side as it is very easy to do, really amounts to a hill of beans. Yes, I am a left-leaning and I have argued that the western world creates conditions that lead to terrorism in the past. However, in no way does that mean I can justify terrorism under any circumstances.

I believe the Arab world feels that the rest of the world has advanced and they haven’t. They seem to feel that they deserve something or are owed something for their place in history. They are wrong. They need to let go of their misplaced persecution complex and simply learn to coexist with everyone else. Their leaders need to put the current oil wealth to wise use and build a future for their people.

When the oil runs out, or the rest of world stops depending on it so much, where will the Middle East be then? If it’s a mass of unrest now, what will it turn into in the future.

The Arab world needs to start thinking about the future. This has been a theme I’ve been repeating in all of my posts. The past is over. It’s time to let go of some things and begin the healing process. Or not. The Arab world can be relegated to the scrap heap of history if it so insists.

It’s not complex at all. The history is intricate but basically immaterial.

The inferior living conditions are because they won’t simply live in peace. Warfare is incredibly destructive on the lifestyle of the populace that supports it or lives within it. Especially when they continue to unwisely engage in warfare with a militarily superior opponent.

Hey, that’s half the fun of this place. If you can surive this academia will be a cakewalk, though of course you can’t bring the same type of heat from here back to academia.

Funny, I don’t think basic needs have been denied. I don’t hear of people dying of starvation or of thirst. While you can certainly try to paint a propaganda supported picture of the evils of changes that have taken place, it is simply a way to justify ongoing fear and hatred.

So what? I mean really? Nobody is denied of worship. Many people don’t live “right there” and they worship just fine. Hell, if the place was peaceful I’m sure they’d have full access to anyplace they wanted. This is what people don’t seem to get. The road to access and sharing is not through violence and terrorism. Of course they will be denied all kinds of shit on the path they have chosen.

The Arab world seems to allow themselves to be driven by emotion and face. This is incredibly out of date, stupid, and leads to horrible consequences. Maybe it is time for some segments of the Arab world to adapt a less childish outlook on how the planet should operate?

Not owning the land or water access points does not mean you have been denied water.

I’d probably move to a more suitable location, but that is just me. Others would choose to throw their lives away instead.

Enriching my understanding is not going to change my opinion that some segments of the Arab world are 500 years behind the times, that they act like children on the International scene and they make very poor choices such as resorting to terrorism and then complaining when it results in warfare and poor living conditions.

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Rainjack, actually hear what i’m saying.I hate terrorist murderers just as much as i hate israeli generals who order murders. It’s very much the same, they have different resources, but each murders, don’t doubt that.
[/quote]

Because I fundamentally disagree with your opinion does not mean that I am ignoring what you are trying to say.

I don’t see the Israeli military as murderers on the same level as the baby killers on the other side. That is where we diverge, and where your obvious sympathy for the terrorists makes the rest of your opinions invalid as far as I am concerned.