[quote]Sloth wrote:
That’s why you try to maximize your tax revenue collection off of foreign made goods, while trying to keep the domestic tax burden as low as possible. Someone is getting taxed.[/quote]
A trade war with the EU AND China?
Brave.
Stupid, but brave.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
That’s why you try to maximize your tax revenue collection off of foreign made goods, while trying to keep the domestic tax burden as low as possible. Someone is getting taxed.[/quote]
A trade war with the EU AND China?
Brave.
Stupid, but brave.
[/quote]
Governments need revenue. Taxes provide them. Anarchists need not apply to this conversation, by the way. Now, if taxes are eventually rolled over into to cost of the product, let the burden fall–to the greatest extent possible–on foreign products.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
That’s why you try to maximize your tax revenue collection off of foreign made goods, while trying to keep the domestic tax burden as low as possible. Someone is getting taxed.[/quote]
A trade war with the EU AND China?
Brave.
Stupid, but brave.
[/quote]
Governments need revenue. Taxes provide them. Anarchists need not apply to this conversation, by the way. Now, if taxes are eventually rolled over into to cost of the product, let the burden fall–to the greatest extent possible–on foreign products. [/quote]
As I said, stupid. but brave.
You will of course lose, the same way you lost all previous trade wars with the EU.
Dont know if you have noticed it, but we are a bigger economic union than you are and if we side up with China we dwarf you.
So yeah, go back to spinning wool at your hearth or plow the fields with oxens, I wish you the best of luck, I hope you understand that we wont join you.
Hint: The Amish know how its done.
[quote]orion wrote:
I wish you the best of luck, I hope you understand that we wont join you.
[/quote]
Excellent.
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
I know, you have no examples of drastically lower prices on anything that is being outsourced, yet you insist that outsourcing is “good, because it brings the prices down”.
It doesn’t.
[/quote]
Sorry, bud, but you are confusing prices within 1 company that begins to outsource and prices within an industry as a whole. Nike does not make a homogeneous product.
For example, when Nike begins to outsource and produce their products at a lower cost (take t-shirts, for example), that will add to their profit margin because many consumers will still be willing to pay the same price. Nike has obviously done a good job with their ad campaigns because they make consumers feel like wearing a Nike t-shirt is accompanied with being the best, thus why consumers are willing to pay a premium for their products.
However, you can routinely see plain t-shirts selling for just a few dollars each, which would be IMPOSSIBLE without outsourcing. So yes, outsourcing lowers the price for industries as a whole, although that may not work on an individual company level.
And your other example, computer support, I believe, works the same way. If a company begins outsourcing while providing the same quality of service, there is no reason for them to lower prices and their profit margins will increase. However, if a competitor begins outsourcing, or a new company starts up and outsources and offers the same quality service at lower prices to steal market share, you better believe the company in your original example must follow suit or they will quickly lose clients and go out of business.
Now you can argue all day long about whether the lower prices and accompanying benefits outweigh the costs of the increased unemployment. However, to state that outsourcing does not lower prices is absolutely absurd.
Yeah, I was reading this morning that confidence in the economy has sunk even lower. Didn’t think that was possible.
Autumn of wreckage: Economic confidence plunges
I thought that Walter Russell Mead had an interesting article. It’s about WalMart but also touches on China, and the American middle class. He makes a point that future generations of Americans are going to be a situation where there is greater competition against other countries. These other places, China in particular, have citizens that are willing to work hard long hours for low wages. This competition is probably going to place a strain on the US’s middle class - not only in wages, and available jobs, but also for raw materials to produce goods in the US.
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2010/09/14/save-the-planet-shop-walmart/
Personally I think we should not allow China to manipulate her currency, stop technology transfers, and allow easier access for American goods to enter country. If an agreement can be not reached, then tariffs should be looked at. I’m for free trade, but don’t believe we have a reliable partner with China.
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Wow, a lot of the logic in here is bad. I am done.[/quote]
I know, you have no examples of drastically lower prices on anything that is being outsourced, yet you insist that outsourcing is “good, because it brings the prices down”.
It doesn’t…
[/quote]
Electronics…
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Wow, a lot of the logic in here is bad. I am done.[/quote]
I know, you have no examples of drastically lower prices on anything that is being outsourced, yet you insist that outsourcing is “good, because it brings the prices down”.
It doesn’t…
[/quote]
Electronics…[/quote]
Cars, clothes, food, software…
Has no one here bothered to go through comparative advantage with these guys? I think we need to start at the beginning to clear things up for them…
Country A can catch either 9 fish a day or 3 rabbits
Country B can catch either 4 fish a day or 2 rabbits
The cost of a rabbit for country A is 3 fish
The cost of a rabbit for country B is 2 fish
Comparatively, country B is a cheaper rabbit catcher. The opportunity cost is lower.
If they do not specialize and trade over the course of two days production is -
Country A = 12 units (9+3)
Country B = 6 units (4+2)
Total = 18 units
If they do specialize and trade over the course of two days production is -
Country A = 18 units (9+9)
Country B = 4 units (2+2)
Total = 22 units
Even though country A can produce more Fish AND Rabbits than country B they are still better off to specialize in what they are comparatively better at.
The two countries can then trade so they have both rabbits and fish. Both countries are wealthier then they otherwise would have been or both will be equally wealthy but have more free time.
When you say that countries should not trade you are saying that we should ignore the benefits of the division of labor and comparative advantage.
Same thing in more detail - Cooperation: How a Free Market Benefits Everyone | Mises Institute
Oh, and the Nike t-shirt has no doubt gotten cheaper.
CPI in 99= 166
CPI in 09= 214
(214-166)/166 = .29
30 x 1.29 = 39
So a t-shirt priced @ $30 10 years ago would be worth $39 in todays $. It has to be remembered to that this doesn’t account for any increase in quality over the last ten years. The fact that the t-shirt now sells for $35 means that the REAL price of the shirt has gone down by 11.5 %.
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Wow, a lot of the logic in here is bad. I am done.[/quote]
I know, you have no examples of drastically lower prices on anything that is being outsourced, yet you insist that outsourcing is “good, because it brings the prices down”.
It doesn’t…
[/quote]
Electronics…[/quote]
I can’t believe you even wrote this…
Yes - electronics, clothing, furniture, tools etc .
My dad is always shocked at the amount the price of two particular items have come down - Tools and Furniture. I don’t have any numbers for this one but in his opinion the cost of a leather couch today is less than half of what one would be (of similar quality) 10-15 years ago and this is in NOMINAL terms. Adjust for inflation and we have an even bigger drop.
Could you buy a nice 100 piece, decent quality tool set for $200 10 years ago?
[quote]Sifu wrote:
How are you going to pay off the amount of college loans needed for a PhD on $4/hr? [/quote]
I just wanted to comment on this statement.
If you are earning a PhD in America in anything other then medical, you should be getting a stipend by doing research which PAYS YOU (albiet at the poverity level) but you should not have any real debt.
That said I know plenty have have debt, but that is because they need a new car, new clothes, new computers every year and cant budget. I have the same stipend, drive my same old car (it runs fine) and even put away money every month for retirement. I also did this during my Masters.
The only thing a Masters or PhD requires over a Bachelors is time and motivation.
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
I’m not saying Nike will make more because the shirt is more expensive, taking inflation etc into consideration $35 now is probably roughly the same or even slightly less then $30 ten years ago. That’s not the point. The point is - by outsourcing Nike is increasing their profit margin, not lowering the prices.
Another example - I know of quite a few IT companies that outsource their development to India and China.
Do they charge their customers less because of that? Nope. Do they make more money? You bet.
Yes, there are examples when outsourcing is basically the only way for companies to avoid going belly up if the demand drops drastically or their competitors start the price war. But the mere fact of outsourcing does not lead to lower prices.
[/quote]
if they were always lowering costs and not lowering price, then its a great time for an upstart to make the same product at a lower price, sell it at a lower profit margin and make $$$$$$$.
People are just too lazy to do it… and thats why so few people have real wealth.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
That’s why you try to maximize your tax revenue collection off of foreign made goods, while trying to keep the domestic tax burden as low as possible. Someone is getting taxed.[/quote]
A trade war with the EU AND China?
Brave.
Stupid, but brave.
[/quote]
Governments need revenue. Taxes provide them. Anarchists need not apply to this conversation, by the way. Now, if taxes are eventually rolled over into to cost of the product, let the burden fall–to the greatest extent possible–on foreign products. [/quote]
Maybe a VAT tax with deductions for exports at the border, while levvying VAT on imports…
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Wow, a lot of the logic in here is bad. I am done.[/quote]
I know, you have no examples of drastically lower prices on anything that is being outsourced, yet you insist that outsourcing is “good, because it brings the prices down”.
It doesn’t…
[/quote]
Electronics…[/quote]
you’re not gonna tell me that you can buy an iPhone 3 right now cheaper than 1 year ago because of outsourcing are you? (both made in China of course)
there are technological advances in some fields that drive prices down, has nothing to do with outsourcing.
aluminum was considered more precious than gold 200 years ago, was it outsourcing that made it cheaper?
food? the same cut of grass-fed australian beef I’m buying once in a while is cheaper these days, reason being that it’s gotten more popular so they can lower the price because of higher sales volume, etc etc.
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Wow, a lot of the logic in here is bad. I am done.[/quote]
I know, you have no examples of drastically lower prices on anything that is being outsourced, yet you insist that outsourcing is “good, because it brings the prices down”.
It doesn’t…
[/quote]
Electronics…[/quote]
you’re not gonna tell me that you can buy an iPhone 3 right now cheaper than 1 year ago because of outsourcing are you? (both made in China of course)
there are technological advances in some fields that drive prices down, has nothing to do with outsourcing.
aluminum was considered more precious than gold 200 years ago, was it outsourcing that made it cheaper?
food? the same cut of grass-fed australian beef I’m buying once in a while is cheaper these days, reason being that it’s gotten more popular so they can lower the price because of higher sales volume, etc etc.
[/quote]
There were multiple posts after this one that exposed your nonsense as just that, nonsense. It seems like you’re just trying to save face by responding very selectively.
What is even funner is that you just wrote that prices of grass fed australian beef went down because demand went up. You absolutely, positively don’t know shit about economics.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Wow, a lot of the logic in here is bad. I am done.[/quote]
I know, you have no examples of drastically lower prices on anything that is being outsourced, yet you insist that outsourcing is “good, because it brings the prices down”.
It doesn’t…
[/quote]
Electronics…[/quote]
you’re not gonna tell me that you can buy an iPhone 3 right now cheaper than 1 year ago because of outsourcing are you? (both made in China of course)
there are technological advances in some fields that drive prices down, has nothing to do with outsourcing.
aluminum was considered more precious than gold 200 years ago, was it outsourcing that made it cheaper?
food? the same cut of grass-fed australian beef I’m buying once in a while is cheaper these days, reason being that it’s gotten more popular so they can lower the price because of higher sales volume, etc etc.
[/quote]
There were multiple posts after this one that exposed your nonsense as just that, nonsense. It seems like you’re just trying to save face by responding very selectively.
What is even funner is that you just wrote that prices of grass fed australian beef went down because demand went up. You absolutely, positively don’t know shit about economics.
[/quote]
I replied to concrete examples of ppl claiming that shit got “cheaper because of outsourcing”. Have absolutely no desire to argue with “theories”.
And btw - if you think that higher demand always drives retail prices higher and vice versa (which is evident from your last post) - you’re just plain wrong, or in your own words “don’t know shit about economics”.
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Wow, a lot of the logic in here is bad. I am done.[/quote]
I know, you have no examples of drastically lower prices on anything that is being outsourced, yet you insist that outsourcing is “good, because it brings the prices down”.
It doesn’t…
[/quote]
Electronics…[/quote]
you’re not gonna tell me that you can buy an iPhone 3 right now cheaper than 1 year ago because of outsourcing are you? (both made in China of course)
there are technological advances in some fields that drive prices down, has nothing to do with outsourcing.
aluminum was considered more precious than gold 200 years ago, was it outsourcing that made it cheaper?
food? the same cut of grass-fed australian beef I’m buying once in a while is cheaper these days, reason being that it’s gotten more popular so they can lower the price because of higher sales volume, etc etc.
[/quote]
There were multiple posts after this one that exposed your nonsense as just that, nonsense. It seems like you’re just trying to save face by responding very selectively.
What is even funner is that you just wrote that prices of grass fed australian beef went down because demand went up. You absolutely, positively don’t know shit about economics.
[/quote]
I replied to concrete examples of ppl claiming that shit got “cheaper because of outsourcing”. Have absolutely no desire to argue with “theories”.
And btw - if you think that higher demand always drives retail prices higher and vice versa (which is evident from your last post) - you’re just plain wrong, or in your own words “don’t know shit about economics”.
[/quote]
It’s no theory that generic t-shirts produced in foreign countries are cheaper than generic t-shirts produced here. You’ve got to look at homogeneous products to be able to compare.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
[quote]Big Banana wrote:
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Wow, a lot of the logic in here is bad. I am done.[/quote]
I know, you have no examples of drastically lower prices on anything that is being outsourced, yet you insist that outsourcing is “good, because it brings the prices down”.
It doesn’t…
[/quote]
Electronics…[/quote]
you’re not gonna tell me that you can buy an iPhone 3 right now cheaper than 1 year ago because of outsourcing are you? (both made in China of course)
there are technological advances in some fields that drive prices down, has nothing to do with outsourcing.
aluminum was considered more precious than gold 200 years ago, was it outsourcing that made it cheaper?
food? the same cut of grass-fed australian beef I’m buying once in a while is cheaper these days, reason being that it’s gotten more popular so they can lower the price because of higher sales volume, etc etc.
[/quote]
There were multiple posts after this one that exposed your nonsense as just that, nonsense. It seems like you’re just trying to save face by responding very selectively.
What is even funner is that you just wrote that prices of grass fed australian beef went down because demand went up. You absolutely, positively don’t know shit about economics.
[/quote]
I replied to concrete examples of ppl claiming that shit got “cheaper because of outsourcing”. Have absolutely no desire to argue with “theories”.
And btw - if you think that higher demand always drives retail prices higher and vice versa (which is evident from your last post) - you’re just plain wrong, or in your own words “don’t know shit about economics”.
[/quote]
It’s no theory that generic t-shirts produced in foreign countries are cheaper than generic t-shirts produced here. You’ve got to look at homogeneous products to be able to compare.[/quote]
how much we’re talking ?
I bought a bunch of US made shirts @ the Army Surplus store for like $4 + tax.
I do, however, agree (this is captn obvious territory) that outsourcing cuts costs in most cases. The point is - this doesn’t always mean lower prices for the consumers.
What’s interesting is that massive outsourcing undermines local consumer base to the point where companies begin to discover that it’s more and more difficult to sell their products and services and are forced to cut production/lay ppl off - because they can’t lower prices any more and still be profitable.
In some cases they actually raise the price (yep, despite lower demand) to try and make up for losses of volume.