Wacko Conspiracies

[quote]freemark wrote:

ps I do not believe the govt conspired to bomb the Murrah building. But you would have to be a nutjob not to believe the government hides and distorts information, we should have, on a regular basis.[/quote]

I agree. I am skeptical whenever I am told anything by the government, big business, special interest groups or these conspiracy nutjobs.

These conspiracy guys offer the least credible evidence. It is usually just blatantly false and they use it to try to make themselves feel better about their pathetic lives. It is not my fault, it is the Trilateral Commission!

I support the war on terror, but I also see the government has misrepresented a number of things.

Truth is the first casualty of war.

has anyone seen Alex Jones video: “911 - the Road to Tyranny”. It has a great collection of video grabs from various news broadcasts which report the findings of multiple bombs planted IN the murrah building.

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/./1/.1121283291118.OKC61.JPG

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
After review of the “report” posted indicating that 4 charges were placed to knock down the Murrah Building in OKC I see multiple flaws.

The report itself is a joke. The failure analysis report for such an event would be hundereds of pages long.

The “report” claims that it is impossible to knock down a building with a truck bomb. Since the building was still standing, this statement is irrelevant to reality.

Take a look at the picture above. Does it look like a building that has been “knocked down” as the report tries to deceive you into believing or does it look like a bomb went off in front of the building knocking its face off?
[/quote]

The failure analysis would not have to be hundreds of pages long - only If the building fell down all on it’s own would that be the case.

The only thing he had to prove was that the single bomb in question did not do all that damage. You keep saying the whole building wasn’t knocked down therefore the whole story is ridiculous. You took a generality spoken by an expert as your basis for being right.

The study was conducted based on THE DAMAGE THAT WAS DONE - not on if the whole building was knocked down.

It was not just the face that was blown off but a large portion of the interior including steel reinforced concrete supports - all the way to the FAR WALL.

The study concluded beyond a shadow of a doubt that the fertilizer bomb did not cause all that damage. It said the MAXIMUM damage would have been only 1% of the floor area - MAXIMUM of 1%.

These guys are MUNITIONS EXPERTS. The test was done to document the proof and for the average layman - Partin knew for a fact without doing the test because it was so obvious to HIM - a MUNITIONS EXPERT. He became involved because he knew just through casual observation that the official story was an impossibility. A good part of the study was recording for the record the inconsistent damage.

Obvious points:

  • Blast through air is a terribly inefficient coupling mechanism against heavy reinforced concrete beams and columns. Blast wave energy drops dramatically when traveling through air, initially falling off more rapidly than an inverse function of the distance cubed.

  • Using the official estimate of 4,800 pounds of ANFO would yield a maximum pressure of explosion of about one-half million pounds per square inch at detonation. But by the time the blast wave traveled through the air to the nearest of the building’s columns, it would have dropped off to about 375 pounds of pressure per square inch, and by the time it reached the nearest column in the second row of columns it would have been down to 27 to 38 psi. The compressive yield strength of concrete is around 3,500 pounds per square inch, far above anything exerted by the truck bomb blast on the building’s structure.

  • The asymmetrical damage to the building - i.e., the off-center “bite” - presents another insuperable problem for the official scenario, requiring that the blast wave leave standing columns that were closer to the explosion while taking out columns that were farther from the blast.

  • Inherent in the official scenario is the absurd claim that the truck blast was sufficiently strong to collapse the huge columns and beams, but not strong enough to knock down sheet rock, furring strips, and other light, fragile materials.

[quote]
And of course if you were conspiring to deceive people and blow up a building, why would you plant charges in the building and then use a truck bomb? Just use the truck bomb and leave less evidence of your conspiracy.[/quote]

Because the truck bomb WOULDN’T DO THE DAMAGE INTENDED.

But lastly, your COMPLETELY DISMISSING all the actual live news coverage of 3 or 4 unexploded bombs, confirmed by federal authorities, still in the building. On top of that, the police transcripts released of that day and the FEMA reports all mention unexploded bombs being removed.

The problem is no matter how much evidence is presented most people can’t admit what they see might be true because they don’t want to.

The OKC bombing is a blatantly obvious cover-up. If you are willing to look at the actual evidence, you will suddenly realize you sat through a stage production of “Oklahoma” for 10 yrs. It’s at that point it may dawn on you that there is a possibility that 9/11 really wasn’t what it seemed either.

The only thing I asked when I started this thread was for someone that thought conspiracies were delusional crap to explain how the live news reports didn’t jive with the official story. I didn’t even ask about the motive.

I got plenty of insults, but not one skeptic bothered to explain what they were hearing - then I even added supporting evidence - still more insults.

No conspiracies? Like I said before, Enron shut down power to millions of people without regard to human life and suffering and stole huge profits from people who were barely able to make a living - and joked about it. How is what Enron did any different than al Qaeda? Actually Enron did far more damage. I didn’t see any of their execs being shipped to Gitmo. That was the worst act of terrorism EVER!

These are the same people running our government and who sat in on Cheney’s “secret” Energy Task Force - but seriously, I really wouldn’t worry about it…

[quote]shiny wrote:
has anyone seen Alex Jones video: “911 - the Road to Tyranny”. It has a great collection of video grabs from various news broadcasts which report the findings of multiple bombs planted IN the murrah building.
[/quote]

silencer posted the link awhile back but here it is again.

http://www.archive.org/download/911theRoadtoTyranny/911theroadtotyranny.wmv

I encourage everyone to check it out if they can (it is 245mb). No matter what you think of Jones, it’s hard to dismiss what your seeing with your very own eyes.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
PGA200X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

Everyone screws up and the more people involved the more the chance for screw-ups. That means that if this were true there is no way they could keep it from coming out.

And how long did the Catholic church hide the rapings and molesting and innocent children by priests…

P.S. Just making a statement to show that a huge orginization can keep information at bay for a great deal of time.

The Catholic Church did a poor job hiding these things. I have been aware that the Catholic Church tranferred priests that molested children for decades. It is one of the reasons I have not been involved in the Church for 20 years. (And no, I was not a victim).

This is actually a good example on how coverups and conspiracies often fail.

It is only in the last 5 or so years that the media has really took hold of this particular issue.[/quote]

Excellent point! Just because the media doesn’t report something because of political bias or whatever, doesn’t mean that it has been kept a secrete. Also, the Papacy is a much more homogenous group than the US government in that they all have similar beliefs and ideals, like little boys, etc. Not so with the US government.

The main issue is that I can’t buy that the US government could pull this off, it’s just beyond their ability. Their large bureaucratic structure that contains redundancy and inefficiencies of processes, systems, and people makes coordinated and precise actions like a conspiracy virtually impossible.

[quote]battlelust wrote:

This is not necessarily true. The ruling parties and dominant information providers have a mutually dependent relationship. The effects of a small conspiracy can be magnified by the media’s (and public’s) aversion to cognitive dissonance and need to maintain credibility. A small conspiracy that threatens the foundations of our government and system will be covered-up by the rest of the government and information-control system. The government has a built-in damage control.

[/quote]

Not so, because when a small conspiracy is uncovered in the government there is always someone who will benefit from it being brought out to the public. So those responsible get canned or resign and the one who discovers it quietly gets more power, a better job, or gets elected to office.

Welcome to politics my friend! In all aspects of government it is CYA! You screw up and there are ten people waiting in line to take advantage of it.

JTF, you don’t have a clue.

A failure analysis report for something like this would be massive.

I have helped put together 300 page failure analysis reports for wastewater treatment equipment. Sure it was over a million dollars worth, but OKC is a much larger scale so I would expect the report to be massive.

Regarding the phantom bombs. Face the facts, they never existed. Some mistaken news reports don’t change that fact.

The facts don’t bear it out. The conspiracy is a pack of lies.

If it makes you feel better to believe it go ahead.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
battlelust wrote:

Not so, because when a small conspiracy is uncovered in the government there is always someone who will benefit from it being brought out to the public. So those responsible get canned or resign and the one who discovers it quietly gets more power, a better job, or gets elected to office.

Welcome to politics my friend! In all aspects of government it is CYA! You screw up and there are ten people waiting in line to take advantage of it.

[/quote]

I think we’re discussing different levels of conspiracies. Some issues may be large enough to damage the ENTIRE government.

That said, the command structure of the armed forces (and non-legislative, non-judicial branchs of government) is such that three or four generals or high-ranking officials are all that is needed for an effective conspiracy. The environment of cut-throat competition is not necessarily present in unelected officals and officers. Patriotism is not be overlooked either.

This is a factor that I neglected to mention in my initial post: hierarchy. The effects of a command and control hierarchy, compounded by my initial theorizing of the “automatic damage-control,” could very well, IF the conspiracy was damaging enough, override any other selfish, un-patriotic demands for personal gain.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
JTF, you don’t have a clue.

A failure analysis report for something like this would be massive.

I have helped put together 300 page failure analysis reports for wastewater treatment equipment. Sure it was over a million dollars worth, but OKC is a much larger scale so I would expect the report to be massive.

Regarding the phantom bombs. Face the facts, they never existed. Some mistaken news reports don’t change that fact.

The facts don’t bear it out. The conspiracy is a pack of lies.

If it makes you feel better to believe it go ahead.[/quote]

“A second and third bomb were located in the building. The second bomb was disarmed and the third bomb was evacuated.”
-FEMA Report

“There is another bomb on the south side of the bldg. Need to get away as far as possible. Evacuate the area of the bldg immediately, evacuate the s side of the bldg immediately.”
-OKC Hwy Patrol records

BTW, I was wrong on one point. The 56pg “Eglin Blast Effects Study” was separate from Gen Partin’s own conclusions.

The Eglin study was the GOVERNMENT’s own commisioned study conducted by the Armament Directorate, Wright Laboratory at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida
http://tinyurl.com/cqomo

Their conclusion:
“It must be concluded that the damage at the Murrah Federal Building is not the result of the truck bomb itself, but rather due to other factors such as locally placed charges within the building itself… The procedures used to cause the damage to the Murrah Building are therefore more involved and complex than simply parking a truck and leaving…”

One of the independent civil engineers commissioned to review the Eglin Blast Effects Study:

"Alvin Norberg, a licensed professional engineer in Auburn, California with over 50 years of engineering experience on over 5,000 construction projects, writes that evidence from the Eglin Test Structure data “verifies that the severe structural damage to the Murrah Building was not caused by a truck bomb outside the building,” and that “the collapse of the Murrah Federal Building was the result of “mechanically coupled devices” (bombs) placed locally within the structure adjacent to the critical columns.”

I think your helping me to prove my point Zap. You tell me I don’t have a clue yet I’ve presented more than enough solid info to support my argument.

Meanwhile your strongest argument - “the report wasn’t long enough” - somehow proves this conspiracy is a pack of lies.

What happens when you take the study off the table? We’re still left with the news reports and the FEMA records and the OKC HiP records and the eyewitness testimonies and expert opinions.

What can I say, it’s not an easy thing to think about.

To die, or not to die?
2001 WorldNetDaily.com
In less than two weeks, barring a dramatic change of heart in Attorney General John Ashcroft, the most important piece of evidence in the Oklahoma City bombing six years ago will be destroyed.

That “evidence,” as ironic as it sounds, is Timothy McVeigh. Only McVeigh can piece together the rapidly-changing puzzle that is the OKC bombing case, yet Ashcroft wants to kill this evidence despite lots of other evidence that is beginning to refute what we thought we knew about the Alfred P. Murrah Building attack April 19, 1995.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=23037

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Conspiracies do exist. The destruction of the WTC and the mass transit bombings in London and Madrid are certainly part of a global conspiracy.

Islamic extremists are conspiring against us.
[/quote]
seriously.

adopting these conspiracy theories flies right in the face of that which is already in our faces.

isn’t it quite obvious that Islamic extremists ARE conspiring against us? but no, let’s come up with some idea about what’s “really going on”.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
The main issue is that I can’t buy that the US government could pull this off, it’s just beyond their ability. Their large bureaucratic structure that contains redundancy and inefficiencies of processes, systems, and people makes coordinated and precise actions like a conspiracy virtually impossible. [/quote]

Actually Lorisco most of the people involved end up being just as surprised as anyone else. Only a small number of people “actually” need to know what’s going on.

While it’s true many people are involved, it’s a matter of PUBLIC RECORD that they were conducting drills or sting operations (by amazing coincidences) in the OKC bombing, both WTC attacks, and now London - at the EXACT MOMENT the attacks occurred.

The first WTC bombing was an FBI terrorist sting operation which was supposed to use a fake bomb.
Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast
http://billstclair.com/911timeline/1990s/nyt102893.html

On 9/11, NORAD was conducting at least 3 to 5 wargames involving hijacked jets flying into buildings on that exact morning.

Agency planned exercise on Sept. 11 built around a plane crashing into a building
Associated Press
WASHINGTON - In what the government describes as a bizarre coincidence, one U.S. intelligence agency was planning an exercise last Sept. 11 in which an errant aircraft would crash into one of its buildings. But the cause wasn’t terrorism – it was to be a simulated accident.
http://www.boston.com/news/packages/sept11/anniversary/wire_stories/0903_plane_exercise.htm

The scene at NORAD on Sept. 11: Playing Russian war games … and then someone shouted to look at the monitor
Toronto Star
9 December 2001
“The Federal Aviation Administration has evidence of a hijacking and is asking for NORAD support. This is not part of the exercise.
In a flash, Operation Northern Vigilance is called off.”
http://www.911truth.org/readingroom/whole_document.php?article_id=92

Wargames Were Cover For the Operational Execution of 9/11
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2005/090705bombingexercises.htm

Also FEMA already had their command post “coincidentally” set-up in Manhattan on Sept 10 as part of the “mock drill” as told by Guliani in his testimony to the 9/11 commission.

Good read:
The Coincidence Theorist’s Guide to 9/11
http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/08/coincidence-theorists-guide-to-911.html

And now London:
London Underground Bombing ‘Exercises’ Took Place at Same Time as Real Attack
Peter Power of Visor Consultants in BBC interview

POWER: At half past nine this morning we were actually running an exercise for a company of over a thousand people in London based on simultaneous bombs going off precisely at the railway stations where it happened this morning, so I still have the hairs on the back of my neck standing up right now.

HOST: To get this quite straight, you were running an exercise to see how you would cope with this and it happened while you were running the exercise?

POWER: Precisely.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2005/090705bombingexercises.htm

You have to start asking yourself, what’s more believable - the conspiracies or all the tremendous coincidences?

You guys, when there’s a gigantic conspiracy about everything, then life is suddenly less mundane, and reality becomes more like a movie… exciting, thrilling… with gargantuan villains and nameless heroes struggling against insurmountable odds with armies of evil arrayed against them.

I’m sorry, but life is not a TV show. Take heart, sometimes it rains frogs somewhere. Life isn’t all that boring and crappy.

Am I a sheeple because I love my country, and I’m not afraid of my government? Is it because I blindly trust our leaders, and go along with everything they say?

No… I’m just not a pussy. I am not afraid of the big bad wolf because I eat big bad wolves for breakfast. With mustard.

STOP BEING SCARED

I think we have to admit the following:

(1) JTF is sincere.
(2) The Illuminati (and its branch
office in Manhatten) runs the
world.

   --- Dale (aka Rusty Shackleford)

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:

Am I a sheeple because I love my country, and I’m not afraid of my government? Is it because I blindly trust our leaders, and go along with everything they say?

[/quote]

Tell that to the Jews that survived Nazi Germany.

Of course you are supposed to think, and wonder what kind of job the people YOU put in place to leade you are doing. Does a Co. hire a CEO and blindly follow asking no questions?
Nothing to do with being scared, but rather being aware and concerned for your nations well being. Go back to your history books.

“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty”
-Thomas Jefferson

[quote]dblbass128 wrote:

Tell that to the Jews that survived Nazi Germany.

[/quote]

It is funny you post that. Most conspiracy nuts I am exposed to try to deny the Holocaust. I am glad you are not that far gone.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
You guys, when there’s a gigantic conspiracy about everything, then life is suddenly less mundane, and reality becomes more like a movie… exciting, thrilling… with gargantuan villains and nameless heroes struggling against insurmountable odds with armies of evil arrayed against them.

I’m sorry, but life is not a TV show. Take heart, sometimes it rains frogs somewhere. Life isn’t all that boring and crappy.

Am I a sheeple because I love my country, and I’m not afraid of my government? Is it because I blindly trust our leaders, and go along with everything they say?

No… I’m just not a pussy. I am not afraid of the big bad wolf because I eat big bad wolves for breakfast. With mustard.

STOP BEING SCARED[/quote]

Did someone put you up to writing this post? I fear that there is a conspiracy behind this!
(AHHHHHHH…running from the room)

You guys realy don’t get it, do you? The BIG picture. Economy. Global Economy. Oil. Manipulation of the global/local economy through oil prices, among other things. But the price of oil is the main reason for all of this.

Do you realy know how much money does the U.S. earn because of the situation in Iraq and lately, London. WAR = PROFIT. Americans have jobs on account of the global terror the U.S. is conducting for the last 20 years. Americans have cheap oil and drive cars that use up gasoline like you do air.

What would happen to the economy of the U.S. if they stop bullying other countries throughout the world and suddenly there is peace in the world. The oil prices stabilize (go up in the U.S.). The military budget halves. People start loosing their jobs. Life standard drops in the U.S… The people blames the Government. The people want a new/better government.

The U.S. Government and some very influential (loaded) people don’t want that to happen.

So, there is war in Iraq now. Tommorow it will be Iran. The day after that - Siria. And then, who knows?

I thank God that my country doesn’t have any oil because then my country, my home, would one day be on the list too.

majst0r:

What a terrific post!!! Let me guess, you are a european!!! Further, you live in a country that was bailed out by the U.S. within living memory!!! We don’t have many of those on this forum. Oh, wait, we have a ton of bitter europeans.

Welcome!!!

“You guys realy don’t get it, do you?”

Uh, oh!!!

“The BIG picture. Economy. Global Economy. Oil. Manipulation of the global/local economy through oil prices, among other things. But the price of oil is the main reason for all of this.”

Oh, really? Our gas prices have never been higher. It must be Halliburton siphoning all the oil to pay back the bribes need to elect W. You do know he received the most votes of any President, EVER?

“Do you realy know how much money does the U.S. earn because of the situation in Iraq and lately, London.”

How much? Seems like our incarnation of bitter europeans (democrats) are constantly bitching about HOW MUCH WE ARE SPENDING IN IRAQ!!!

“WAR = PROFIT. Americans have jobs on account of the global terror the U.S. is conducting for the last 20 years.”

FANTASTIC!!! Oh wait, which twenty year war were you talking about?

“Americans have cheap oil and drive cars that use up gasoline like you do air.”

Not that cheap. 12 thousand euros per gallon.

“What would happen to the economy of the U.S. if they stop bullying other countries throughout the world and suddenly there is peace in the world.”

Fantastic!!! Remember everyone, there were no wars before the United States was formed. It’s all our fault!!!

“The oil prices stabilize (go up in the U.S.). The military budget halves. People start loosing their jobs. Life standard drops in the U.S… The people blames the Government. The people want a new/better government.”

Right.

“The U.S. Government and some very influential (loaded) people don’t want that to happen.”

Halliburton!!! Cheney!!! Am I getting close?

“So, there is war in Iraq now. Tommorow it will be Iran. The day after that - Siria. And then, who knows?”

It won’t be in your backyard.

You’re welcome.

“I thank God that my country doesn’t have any oil because then my country, my home, would one day be on the list too.”

It’s too bad they don’t have libraries. Do you guys want some democrats? We have some we could send. It sounds like they would fit right in!!!

I loved this post!!!

JeffR

BOTTOM LINE! The government said there was 1 bomb BUT police reports, new casts and reporters had said there were 4 bombs INSIDE! I’ve seen the news casts first hand. Watch the link that was posted in the beginning with the 200+ meg file. It has a compilation of the news casts. I mean c’mon, how could anybody be so blind to this. Its so frigging obvious that this is a cover-up. What they are trying to cover up is meaningless. The fact that they are FLAT OUT LYING to us is.

[quote]Majst0r wrote:
You guys realy don’t get it, do you? The BIG picture. Economy. Global Economy. Oil. Manipulation of the global/local economy through oil prices, among other things. But the price of oil is the main reason for all of this.

Do you realy know how much money does the U.S. earn because of the situation in Iraq and lately, London. WAR = PROFIT. Americans have jobs on account of the global terror the U.S. is conducting for the last 20 years. Americans have cheap oil and drive cars that use up gasoline like you do air.

What would happen to the economy of the U.S. if they stop bullying other countries throughout the world and suddenly there is peace in the world. The oil prices stabilize (go up in the U.S.). The military budget halves. People start loosing their jobs. Life standard drops in the U.S… The people blames the Government. The people want a new/better government.

The U.S. Government and some very influential (loaded) people don’t want that to happen.

So, there is war in Iraq now. Tommorow it will be Iran. The day after that - Siria. And then, who knows?

I thank God that my country doesn’t have any oil because then my country, my home, would one day be on the list too.[/quote]

The war is hurting our economy not helping it.

Even if we stole all the oil in Iraq, this war is still much more expensive than if we just purchased outright.

If we eliminated our military we would spend the money on other things. New roads, cures for cancer, space exploration, etc. People would still have jobs. Our standard of living would increase. Instead of wasting our time and resources blowing things up our time and resources would be used for products and services that improve our standard of living.

Your post makes no sense, yet I suspect you will try to repeat it and defend it.