Because Im clearly not rested and need more sleep mentioned it several times here
So you canāt feel awesome if youāre not rested.
Canāt you see the contradiction here?
So imagine how bad I felt before TRT with my low t symptoms that now underslept I feel much better
My elevated prolactin has nothing to do with e2. I mean yes it rose a bit since I started TRT but it was over the range before TRT when my e2 was very low . Now for one year Im taking caber because I have empty cella syndrome which seems to be a major factor for my testosterone deficiency
Caber is a strong DA agonist. DA plays a part in the sleep cycle, you can google it. Maybe the Caber is whatās causing the sleep issues?
What you donāt understand is that E2 makes it worse in someone that has already the tendency to have it higher. Mine was between 15-20 pre TRT with a baseline E2 of 23.
It now runs between 30-50 now that my E2 has been ranging between 2-3 times the baseline level.
You may want to have a look at this as well:
It has been done in women, but as you can see E2 has a stimulatory effect on cortisol secretion.
I have the same issue as you since on TRT. When I wake up feeling warm and wired I know itās gonna be hard time to go back to sleep. Sometimes I fee warm even before going to sleep and I have to open the window to cool down the room, otherwise no chance Iām falling asleep
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Did you manage to fix your issue?
I think my high e2 and high testosterone values are not causing the issue due to one simple reason: the wake up started only one week after I initiated TRT when my testosterone was not build up yet and e2 was even too low(somewhere around 20-30). My e2 jumped high when I added HCG but the issue has started at least two weeks ago
The cabergoline Im taking 10 months before I started TRT and I havent had sleeping issues from it
The only variable that changed when the sleeping issue appeared was adding the 20mg daily sustanon injections for one week.
Now please put you attention in this, because I think that holds the key: When I changed recently the injection time from early morning to 17.30 afternoon, for one week I didnt wake up like that and after a week it started again.
A week of time looks to me like a build up of one of the two short esters. I just see no other sensible explanation
No, I didnāt. Iāve tried all the supplements possible in different doses and Iām telling you thereās nothing that will fix it. If itās hormonal thereās no supplement powerful enough to help you on the long run. They may help it for few days in the beginning, then you go back to square one.
The best I felt was the first 2 weeks of TRT, when I was still having my endogenous testosterone, then all the issues started to build up.
Once again, I truly believe itās a T:E2 ratio as @johann77 explained in several posts and thatās the reason why several of the guys here do well on a high dose of T. E2 and DHT have a saturation point, so when you inject higher doses of T, you will start converting less, leading to a higher T:E2 ratio.
What you will pay on the long run though itās enough to make you think twice about it. The guy here spoke about it extensively:
In your case, you would probably do well if you drop HCG, but the problem is that youāre young and you need to keep your fertility.
From what Ive read my t to e2 ratio looks good. HCG also gives me a lot of other benefits.
I will try magnesium glycinate if it doesnt work will try changing to enanthate. If this does not work as well I will consider again other steps
What was considered a good T:E2 ratio years ago was roughly 25 or 30. So letās say for the average teen guy with a total T of 800 that would be at least 32 E2, if you consider 25.
Or Defy likes to mirror E2 with free T, which is a bit extreme probably.
So, in your case, your ratio would be 17.5 considering total T and E2, the half of what is observed in young healthy men. Same if you use the Defyās method.
EDIT: If you have been on Excel Male long enough, you will see that Nelson is for a ratio of 14-20, that I absolutely disagree with, since it hasnāt been observed in any clinical study on young healthy guys. So, according to him, your ratio would be totally fine.
Ok so if my total t is 1200 and e2 is 70 isnt that ratio good?
I donāt have an answer to that, no one has.
I use as my reference studies done on young men with a good endocrine system.
As an example, letās follow the Defy method for a second. You get the average Joe young guy in his early 20s with a total T of 700. His free T calculated with TruT on a standard SHBG of 25 and a standard albumin of 4.3.
What you get is a free T of 25. An E2 of 25 is pretty common in young guys of that age.
So I think they are not far after all.
The problem is to achieve that ratio without touching AIs and HCG that are other variables hard to control.
Im very very skeptical about many things written in excel male. They are not evidence based but bro science. Dr Keith Nichols has debunked many of them in his videos, especially his latest ones. And he is debunking them with studies and medical literature, not opinions and anecdotal experience. He and dr Scot Howell are working actively now to get the TRT research and medical documentation to a whole new level
In all interventional studies done so far showing benefits from TRT no harm has been shown with total t levels up to 1500 and no harm has been shown with any high level of estradiol associated with such total t levels. In fact high levels of estradiol are showing only benefits and @dbossa can concur on that. This is also the lifeās work of dr Neil Rouzier.
So based on all that evidence I see no reason to be afraid of my over the range levels of estradiol even all that evidence lets me to believe I should be happy with this estradiol levels and not chase any ratio or micromanagement. AIs are not even in my thought process regarding my protocol and never have I considered using them.
My personal evidence also points high e2 levels are not the reason for my sleep issue due to the simple fact the sleep issue started when my e2 was way way lower and rising it didnt change the problem. Even for a while initially when I started HCG and e2 jumped rapidly I got my sleep better for a while but them the problem came back.
Try the steps you said and weāll see how you will feel. But our sleep situation is similar and I can tell you Iāve already did what you are trying. I hope itās gonna work for you though.
Which ester have you used and which are you using now?
How are your levels?
Check in here, last post.
EDIT: I forgot to post the link
Did you get magnesium glycinate?
Any improvement?
Yes I received it take only 250mg and there is a huge improvement, but lets see how long it will last. I think after my body is adjusted to the supplement the shit will start again. Im now trying to get the enanthate because the border is closed and things are a bid more complicated
These days Im sleeping like a baby, 8 hours per day but during the day I am also tired and sleepy and feel like not doing anything
I dont know is it because Im working from home one week already or I got the COVID and go through it some very light form(maybe too good do be true) or some other reason
Do you have any update?
Did you switch to enanthate or did you just introduce 250mg of magnesium glycinate in the morning?
If you feel tired all day and itās because of magnesium, maybe itās better to take it at night.