This will be my first cycle. I was initially investigating the use of GH to aid in the repair of a niggling shoulder injury. I have had it checked out by a Doc and he confirmed that it is ligament on the posterior delt which needs recup but I find it extremely hard to keep the rest I need as I hate NOT training.
To cut a long story short, after I started researching the use of GH it became apparent that the cost of treatment will be of such a nature that I might as well use it “properly” and add some AAS to the mix and make it worth my wile.
Currently just on 240 lbs, ~11% BF, been training 2 years. Since I started I have lost about 15% BF and gained 'bout 24 lbs muscle. I was only planning on doing AAS next year but with the GH I was thinking might as well.
Cycle as follows:
GH: 4iu ED 5 on 2 off Duration 12 weeks
This is where the explanation starts. I was thinking of going only GH for the first 4 weeks and then add the following:
At the risk of this becoming long winded, please discount the fact that my shoulder will be 100% by the time I start the AAS as the shoulder is still a little niggly but much better on the heavy overhead lifts and benching.
I was thinking in the lines on this cycle as I want the hyperplasia to have started by the time I am on the AAS or is this not necessary?
Any suggestions with the AAS? Will be proviron be a better anti E? Anything else the vets would rather do?
High doses of HCG are loosing favour in light of the problem of the LH receptors downgrading. 250iu EOD SQ (875iu/wk) will maintain baseline testicular function and can be done through the full cycle. This will prevent the testes from shutting down at all. Too much HCG can make the testes insensitive to your LH when it re-starts.
with the sust and Deca having such a short cycle could be counter productive depending on the ester with the deca it might be pointless. sorry not pointless, but might shut you down more then being useful. plus it takes so long to clear, if I’m not mistaken(could be)your PCT might be too soon. also why the seperate weeks for the clomid. There might be something I am missing it just seems a quick cycle for the GH and the AAS’s you chose. You might want to look at prop and Fast Deca (npp) it’s a faster clearing ester and might suit your needs better. BB
If it were me I would start the GH at a low dose like 1.5-2IU/d to start the repair work on the shoulder and then pick it up slowly to 4IU when you are ready to start your cycle. Kepp in mind it will take 3-4 weeks until your injectable to kick in.
when it is time to start your cycle I would go with something like this
W 1-14 Sust 500mg/w
W 1-10 Deca 200mg/w
W 1-4 TBol 40mg/d
W 10-14 Winny 50mg/d
W 1-14 Adex 0.5mg/d
I would taper the test from week 14…look up test tapers if you don’t know how. You will need to taper the adex along with the T for the first portion when you will still be running high.
with the sust and Deca having such a short cycle could be counter productive depending on the ester with the deca it might be pointless. sorry not pointless, but might shut you down more then being useful. plus it takes so long to clear, if I’m not mistaken(could be)your PCT might be too soon. also why the seperate weeks for the clomid. There might be something I am missing it just seems a quick cycle for the GH and the AAS’s you chose. You might want to look at prop and Fast Deca (npp) it’s a faster clearing ester and might suit your needs better. BB[/quote]
If you have, have had, might think you may ever have…sore joints I would not use Winny! I used it and hated it. I know it is supposed to just makes joints sore while on it, but I swear my knee is still fucked since using it. I only used it 20mg at a time before training along with 250mg test every 4 days. I felt the joint pain every time I used it. I will never ever use it again. In fact, I threw away 60+ 10mg tabs.
If that is your case then you could swap the winny for masteron and keep using that through your taper along with the test. it will cut you down a bit and isn’t as hard on the joints (200-300mg/w of Mast should do the trick and then taper it down 50-50 with the test).
Also, if your shoulder is not great then don’t lift too heavy on cycle (stay above the 6 rep range). I know one or two guys that have injured themselves on deca because it masked the problem while it was getting worse or they just outright tore something because they felt like a hero.
Good luck bro.
[quote]StandTall wrote:
If you have, have had, might think you may ever have…sore joints I would not use Winny! I used it and hated it. I know it is supposed to just makes joints sore while on it, but I swear my knee is still fucked since using it. I only used it 20mg at a time before training along with 250mg test every 4 days. I felt the joint pain every time I used it. I will never ever use it again. In fact, I threw away 60+ 10mg tabs.[/quote]
Thanks for all the info. Much appreciated. I am sorry that I am only getting back now… my line of work has a bad way of interrupting life. Network failure at one of our carriers in SA and on friday I am off to Finland for four weeks… really sucks. I have however confirmed the hotel I will be staying at has a pretty decent gym…
High doses of HCG are loosing favour in light of the problem of the LH receptors downgrading. 250iu EOD SQ (875iu/wk) will maintain baseline testicular function and can be done through the full cycle. This will prevent the testes from shutting down at all. Too much HCG can make the testes insensitive to your LH when it re-starts.[/quote]
Thanks. I was under the impression that receptor downgrade only occurs after prolonged use. Is 3 wks post cycle to be considered prolonged use? Another query. As stated I am still researching my cycle and very much interested in not having my testes shut down… dumb/newb question… What is SQ?
with the sust and Deca having such a short cycle could be counter productive depending on the ester with the deca it might be pointless. sorry not pointless, but might shut you down more then being useful. plus it takes so long to clear, if I’m not mistaken(could be)your PCT might be too soon. also why the seperate weeks for the clomid. There might be something I am missing it just seems a quick cycle for the GH and the AAS’s you chose. You might want to look at prop and Fast Deca (npp) it’s a faster clearing ester and might suit your needs better. BB[/quote]
After further thought and reading in between reboots of the core network I am now also of the opinion that this will most probably only shut me down with no significant gains. I also miss typed the PCT… I was actually going to wait 1-2 weeks and then run HCG every other week twice weekly for 4 weeks (2wks in total). I have however changed my proposed cycle to something I feel more comfortable with. Will post later.
[quote]FuriousGeorge wrote:
If it were me I would start the GH at a low dose like 1.5-2IU/d to start the repair work on the shoulder and then pick it up slowly to 4IU when you are ready to start your cycle. Kepp in mind it will take 3-4 weeks until your injectable to kick in.
when it is time to start your cycle I would go with something like this
W 1-14 Sust 500mg/w
W 1-10 Deca 200mg/w
W 1-4 TBol 40mg/d
W 10-14 Winny 50mg/d
W 1-14 Adex 0.5mg/d
I would taper the test from week 14…look up test tapers if you don’t know how. You will need to taper the adex along with the T for the first portion when you will still be running high.
[/quote]
Thanks for the info FuriousGeorge. I have changed the proposed cycle. Will Post shortly.Please have a look and let me know. I did some reading on test tapers and don’t full understand the need on a long life ester? Does the half life not “automatically” taper the amount of free T in you system post cycle? Sorry if that is a dumb question.
Also, is there a formula (Unable to locate on search) that dictates the amount of anti-E you need compared to the dosage and half life of the T in your system? Also,
Proviron/Clomid/Nolva?? which is best?? I feel I’ll rather block the receptors than kill the aromatase process or does this sensitize the Estrogen receptors? Am I being stupid?
[quote]StandTall wrote:
If you have, have had, might think you may ever have…sore joints I would not use Winny! I used it and hated it. I know it is supposed to just makes joints sore while on it, but I swear my knee is still fucked since using it. I only used it 20mg at a time before training along with 250mg test every 4 days. I felt the joint pain every time I used it. I will never ever use it again. In fact, I threw away 60+ 10mg tabs.[/quote]
Thanks dude. I have chucked the Winny on my new cycle. Also found info from other people who experenced that same issues you did. Please have a look at my new cycle I’ll post later and let me know.
[quote]FuriousGeorge wrote:
If that is your case then you could swap the winny for masteron and keep using that through your taper along with the test. it will cut you down a bit and isn’t as hard on the joints (200-300mg/w of Mast should do the trick and then taper it down 50-50 with the test).
Also, if your shoulder is not great then don’t lift too heavy on cycle (stay above the 6 rep range). I know one or two guys that have injured themselves on deca because it masked the problem while it was getting worse or they just outright tore something because they felt like a hero.
Good luck bro.
StandTall wrote:
If you have, have had, might think you may ever have…sore joints I would not use Winny! I used it and hated it. I know it is supposed to just makes joints sore while on it, but I swear my knee is still fucked since using it. I only used it 20mg at a time before training along with 250mg test every 4 days. I felt the joint pain every time I used it. I will never ever use it again. In fact, I threw away 60+ 10mg tabs.
[/quote]
Once again, thanks for all the info and insight. I have chucked the Deca for fear of further injuring my shoulder, even though it feels fine now, considering I’ll inevitably be lifting heavier. Don’t want to in any way hinder my progress by fucking up my shoulder…
This is a very basic cyle and considering it is my first time I should see some significant gains. I am only concerned about the GH. Would that be enough time to kickstart the healing in the delt or am I wasting my time/money?
For a taper the long half life helps but your nuts take longer than that to adjust and grow back to full size. search P22’s test taper. It has pretty much everything you need. If you are unsure after that try posting your plan and ask for help.
There may be a way to calculate the amount of each anti-e required but i don’t have it.
You will find a lot of different opinions on anti-e meds. There have been some pretty good articles written on clomid vs nolva. i think you will find most people recommend nolva (10mg/d) or adex (0.5mg/d) during cycle as a preventative measure. I really liked masteron and I am sure I would like proviron as well. If using the anti-e post cycle many stack nolva (40mg/d) and clomid (150mg/d) for the first week and then decrease the dose to half that for the next few weeks. Clomid will make you pretty emotional though (like a PMSing girl).
I am far from the most knowledgable on these compounds though.
Re: your revised cycle plan I think you are picking good choices with Test and EQ. You may find you want to up the doses a bit though. Keep in mind you aren’t going to see the results from the gear for the first 3-4 weeks. I would stack it with an oral like proviron.
As for your HGH plan, I haven’t used it before so I am little help but most that use it will do so continuously for 6+ months so I am not sure you’ll see the results you are after in just 5 weeks. Maybe one of the vets can comment.
Good luck.
Good luck
[quote]Ceej wrote:
Thanks for the info FuriousGeorge. I have changed the proposed cycle. Will Post shortly.Please have a look and let me know. I did some reading on test tapers and don’t full understand the need on a long life ester? Does the half life not “automatically” taper the amount of free T in you system post cycle? Sorry if that is a dumb question.
Also, is there a formula (Unable to locate on search) that dictates the amount of anti-E you need compared to the dosage and half life of the T in your system? Also,
Proviron/Clomid/Nolva?? which is best?? I feel I’ll rather block the receptors than kill the aromatase process or does this sensitize the Estrogen receptors? Am I being stupid?[/quote]
Weeks 1&2: 2IU morning 5 Days on 2 Off
Weeks 3&4: 2IU Morning 1IU bedtime EOD
Weeks 5-15: 2IU Morning 2IU Bedtime EOD
AAS
Weeks 5-13: EQ 350mg Week
Weeks 14&15: EQ 250mg Week
Weeks 5-11: TestE 250mg Week
Weeks 12&14: TestE 250mg Week
PCT
Weeks 17-19 HCG 1500IU Every 5 Days
Anti-E
Nolva 20mg Daily throughout
[/quote]
Don’t think you will need 20mgs of nolvadex ed unless you are prone to gyno…Also, 1500iu’s of HCG every 5 days will be destructive to your HPTA…I would dose it at 500iu’s every 5 days if I were you…I would also look at the reason, or lack thereof of ramping down my aas doses
Thanks. Found P22’s (assuming prisoner#22?)info, thanks again. Will give it a thorough read and make sure I fully understand. After searching for more info on the anti-e’s I also found info which Mr.Shoulders posted to lower the dosage and then only up it if Estrogenic symptoms become apparent. Will be finding out more on how to be watchfull/aware of E-effects. I would like to be able to stop it before any gyno sets in but also not reduce the androgenic effects, especially noting that EQ has relatively low androgenic properties.
Stacking proviron initially, will that effectively be doubling as my anti-E or should I still use Nolva?
Thanks.
[quote]FuriousGeorge wrote:
For a taper the long half life helps but your nuts take longer than that to adjust and grow back to full size. search P22’s test taper. It has pretty much everything you need. If you are unsure after that try posting your plan and ask for help.
There may be a way to calculate the amount of each anti-e required but i don’t have it.
You will find a lot of different opinions on anti-e meds. There have been some pretty good articles written on clomid vs nolva. i think you will find most people recommend nolva (10mg/d) or adex (0.5mg/d) during cycle as a preventative measure. I really liked masteron and I am sure I would like proviron as well. If using the anti-e post cycle many stack nolva (40mg/d) and clomid (150mg/d) for the first week and then decrease the dose to half that for the next few weeks. Clomid will make you pretty emotional though (like a PMSing girl).
I am far from the most knowledgable on these compounds though.
Re: your revised cycle plan I think you are picking good choices with Test and EQ. You may find you want to up the doses a bit though. Keep in mind you aren’t going to see the results from the gear for the first 3-4 weeks. I would stack it with an oral like proviron.
As for your HGH plan, I haven’t used it before so I am little help but most that use it will do so continuously for 6+ months so I am not sure you’ll see the results you are after in just 5 weeks. Maybe one of the vets can comment.
Don’t think you will need 20mgs of nolvadex ed unless you are prone to gyno…Also, 1500iu’s of HCG every 5 days will be destructive to your HPTA…I would dose it at 500iu’s every 5 days if I were you…I would also look at the reason, or lack thereof of ramping down my aas doses
[/quote]
Thanks. I also found that regarding HCG,Nolva but no specifics on the dosage. Usage guidelines are relatively vague but I opted to use the lowest “recommended” dosage I could find that was noted on more than 1 board/info page. Will 500IU’s HCG and 10mg Nolva be enough? I obviously would like to use as low as possible dosage which remains effective.
The Reason I opted on such low dosages of AAS is firstly to minimize the andro sides and secondly that according to alot of info I found, stacking EQ and TestE wll have good synergestic effects without having to up the dosage. Also, this being my first cycle I would prefer to err on the side of caution unless I am being cautious to the extent that my cycle would be futile.
What would you consider a good dosage on the selected gear?
As for your HGH plan, I haven’t used it before so I am little help but most that use it will do so continuously for 6+ months so I am not sure you’ll see the results you are after in just 5 weeks. Maybe one of the vets can comment.
Good luck.
[/quote]
As I stated I am only using the GH to sort out the shoulder. From what I have subsequently read, GH will be able assist in the repair of the tendon in such a “short” period of time. I will be running it for 16 weeks which should be enough.
The reason I am now adding the AAS is that I was planning on using gear next year and I am now going to use the GH. The positive effects on your body GH has, motivated me to get the most bang for my buck and throw AAS in the mix.
Besides the positive effects on ligaments, bone density, cartilage etc. GH has, from the info I found, it will also induce hyperplasia on such a relatively short cycle. However, this hyperplasia will not match a 6+ month cycle. The AAS will definitely be more than helpful in inducing hypertrophy in the newly added muscle cells. The gains will also continue to hypertrophy post cycle so, besides some water and assuming I get my PCT right, I should be able to hold on to, and add some gains, in the future. Well thats the theory.
From John Berardi’s articles and some others, I am now formulating a diet which will keep my insulin levels up to maximize the production of IGF-1. I will not be even considering the use of insulin. I will most probably add some Cytomel T3 as I want condition to be as close to perfect as possible.
I am now also of the opinion that this will most probably only shut me down with no significant gains. I also miss typed the PCT… I was actually going to wait 1-2 weeks and then run HCG every other week twice weekly for 4 weeks (2wks in total). I have however changed my proposed cycle to something I feel more comfortable with. Will post later.