Using Your Size and Strength In a Fight

Training
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Back when I did Judo there was a new guy. Massive is the only real word I could use for him. Must have been 6ft 5+ and just… fucking massive. He was obese but very enthusiastic and willing to learn.

Afaik, no one except our sensei could do anything to him. And, even then, sensei could never move him in the manner that you normally see experts move beginners with utter ease. He was simply too big. And sensei wasn’t a small man either; I think he was like close to 6ft and over 200lbs…

I think the biggest advantage huge people (that is, both really fucking tall and very heavy) have is that they can probably break their opponent’s stance/posture at will. Just get a firm grip somewhere (back of the head with your massive meat-hands or reach around and grab their back probably works great), get close, and MOVE their entire body as one unit to generate the force to do stuff. Probably don’t even need to get close if the huge guy is that just huger than the other guy. If you got a grip on the back then just push down with your body since you’re probably towering over them. If you got a grip on their collar (jacket or sweater? Probably won’t work on t-shirts) then pull down hard with your entire body. Your opponent will probably just fall flat onto their knees.

I don’t know if this requires technique. I guess it does. You need to know how to move your entire body as a single coordinated unit to generate power. But I would imagine that, if the size discrepancy is that much, then any untrained huge person could fling me, currently 5ft7 and ~170lb, across the room once they have a grip on my back if they actually wanted to.

And how could I forget my favorite grip- the neck. The neck is an amazing place to grip. It’s my “oh fuck, shit just got real!” grip if I ever need to use it in the real world. You can choke people out with your massive meat hands or… just grip the neck and use your body to move them whichever way you want to. You can probably kill people by doing an osoto-gari. Don’t even need to know anything besides-
“Grip/grab someone by the neck, shove them in one backwards direction while simultaneously moving your leg forward to block your opponent’s leg from moving backwards.”
No need to know what reaping means or that you should normally be using your other arm to pull them down in the same direction as your gripping arm.

Seriously dude, the fact that you can palm a basketball and you’re “only” 6ft and 280lb terrifies me. Reminds me why I never want to get into a fight.

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That’s a ton of great insight from someone on the other end of things. Great post.

Mass backed by strength and coordinated movement presents a lot of problems, which you explained really well. Snap-downs and similar posture attacks against the neck probably should be in my top 10 list somewhere, but aren’t because I never used them on the job. I had good success setting up ankle picks with snap-downs in training though.

I’ve also got long-ish arms, which helped with my deadlift just as much as the occasional neck grab in ideal circumstances. Reach is really good for getting away with goon.

Big dudes that move well are scary, especially when you’re talking about 100 plus pound weight difference. I’ve been on the wrong end of that too, it’s not a situation I’d search for outside of training and competition.

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I like how this thread went from the “how to bully small people thread” to the “how not to be bullied by big people” thread

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I’d imagine that posture attacks would only be applicable when you want to take people down, and doing so outside of a gym can have unintended consequences, both good and bad. I think it’s good not to have it in your usual “go-to” as a bouncer.

Snap-downs are amazing. Either you just outright break them and they fall to the floor, or you take advantage of them trying to get out of a very vulnerable position and you do whatever follow-up you’ve trained, like an ankle pick.

What I find cool about grappling is that it’s mostly about finding ways to use technique to use physics to your advantage so that you get the ideal position to submit your opponent.

If you’re a massive person then you don’t need to be a master of the technique. Just know the basics and you’ll probably crush anyone (obligatory “except the true great masters who’ve won national/world competitions and are at the top of their game”) because the physics is so in your favor.

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At my size (6’3, 285 - refer to my log if you don’t believe me), just being this big deters many violent situations. I have used some of the ones you mentioned before bouncing college parties, name a belt grab and short guy standoff using superior reach.
I found that if you can train just enough to get a decent speed and technique behind your punches (I am okay, by no means good) being big packs a lot more wallop. There is a reason you don’t see the heavyweights in MMA going back and forth trading a lot blows because all of them are big and any one punch has great KO potential. It’s why people like the lightweight fights - they wail on each other but nobody gets KO’d (as easily).

I have been on back (sucker attacked) in a fight and used my strength to lift the attacker off me. Get 'em off balance with a good hip thrust and then bench press with intent to flip them off to one side.

The basic grab of a thick shirt (or leather jacket). If you can pick someone off the ground by their clothes, their will to fight is going to dwindle tremondously.

Stay silent, if your big, the less you talk the more intimidating you are. Small guys tend to talk a lot (don’t know why). Scariest M’fers I have ever met rarely say anything.

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As a big guy - this works

Edit: There is one type of person this doesn’t work on and that is very good Judo practitioners who understand using their opponent’s momentum.

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That’s actually the only take-down I won in competition against that 400 lb monster. That broke his posture and a sprawl sealed the deal. It was our last match, we were both smoked and about 4:30 went by with both of us struggling on our feet. I didn’t get anything meaningful going in that last 30 seconds on the ground, and neither did he. It was a grueling struggle far more intense than anything I experienced on the job.

Snap-downs by the neck and the gi was one of the early “goon moves” I learned on the mats and it can almost be unfair, especially in the gi. In my first year I was overly concerned about making sure I wasn’t seen as a mat bully, but as a serious student. It is something I should work on more at some point, because it really does work well and lead to a lot of different paths.

I know a little dive bar that likes hiring white collar professionals who want to bounce for one or two days a week, if you’re interested.

Oh absolutely, and I should probably consolidate my list a bit and get that detail included with the beard grab. It’s something really fundamental in BJJ when training in the gi.

Here in Maine, Carharts and similarly sturdy jackets are worn for nearly half the year and can behave almost exactly like a gi. Even a t-shirt can work as a grip point. It’s a fight, who cares if you rip his Hypercolor t-shirt.

That brings to mind another key technique that belongs in the goon handbook.

Grip stripping. I did not tolerate anyone having grips on me at any point on the job. You shouldn’t let people grab you, either. There’s a lot of ways to grip strip, but the basic goon move is to grab the hand that has you gripped by both hands while simultaneously pushing with your arms towards them and popping backwards with your legs. Use your whole body in a coordinated way to make them let go of you.

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Lol six foot is short to you? The avg height in USA is 5’9. Average weight is like 190lbs (isnt that awful. 190 on a sedentary 5’9 male isn’t gonna look great lol

I think these “goon tactics” would be quite effective. The scenario wherein it gets iffy (you’ve adknowledged this) is wherein you unexpectedly experience say… a grappler who is fifty pounds lighter, but he’s a brown belt in BJJ with wrestling experience.

A good example of this would be a family friend of mine. He’s short, around 5’4 and weighs say 150.

He’s an absolute nugget of muscle, can deadlift almost 400lbs despite hardly ever lifting weights. He’s a pro freestyle wrestler, like olympic games/commonwealth games good, he dominates for his weight class and has no problems tapping out those who are many weight classes above him… seriously the guy is a genetic phenom considering his size, he’s naturally strong as fuck and he never gets tired.

I’ve seen him take down and tap out a wrestler (with only a few months of experience) who was 260lbs. Thats over 100lbs weight difference, granted the guy has been training for a decade and this is a fringe extreme.

The guy also has a mediocre striking game, as in… basic understanding of striking fundamentals.

I wrestled with him back when I had around 25lbs on him, could deadlift 405x7 etc and understood basic takedowns and whatnot. The guy absolutely demolished me, it was hilarious.

I suppose what I’m getting at is, if you’re a goon who only understands basic fundamentals of grappling, you get into an altercation with a smaller guy but notice he has the worst case of cauliflower ear you’ve ever seen, be careful…

Imagine @T3hPwnisher with a purple belt in BJJ. He’s only 5’9, but would be an absolute force to be reckoned with. I imagine he’d give most six foot + guys a run for their money

Now obviously there’s a point where size beats all (provided said size is associated with strength, endurance and athleticism). My friend and @T3hPwnisher are never going to take out Brian Shaw at his peak because that guy was strong, athletic, reasonably agile and had good cardio despite weighing over 400lbs

A skill gap can only net so much advantage. You can watch BJJ videos, a black belt with a standup game can submit a much bigger guy in sparring because they are experts at pitting an opponents leverages/biomechanics against them. But if the guy has 150lbs on the black belt and said weight is associated with strength… not some dude on a mobility scooter who can hardly walk… there’s only so much advantage skill can net you

I have a very hard time believing a big guy could knock out Bukuaw, world famous extremely aggressive Muay Thai fighter (170lbs) who is also a blue/purple belt in BJJ and can cut down thick bamboo trees with a few kicks.

The easiest remedy for this is… don’t get into fights. Being big helps, but if you can’t fight it might not be able to save you. There are SO many videos of “pro fighter fighting bodybuilder” where the bodybuilder gasses out in 20 seconds or ends up on the ground because he just doesnt know how to use his strength and/or doesn’t have any endurance.

If size was the be all/end all, people would get into bodybuilding to get better at fighting.

I do believe however that most bouncers (such as yourself, but you’ve already gone above and beyond here) would greatly benefit from having basic grappling knowledge. 6 months of grappling training + being a massibe guy = you can handle yourself very well unless knives or guns are involved in which case the 100 metre dash is the best mode of self defence (actually thats hands down the best self defence move)

In Aus you can do security even if you aren’t a big guy. I’ve seen bouncers smaller than I am, so i assume/hope they know how to fight however my best friend (purple belt BJJ, borderline pro wrestler, 6 foot 1, 185lb…) has told me most bouncers he works with haven’t the slightest clue how to defend themselves

This I find worrying. I assume the dynamic is different where you live? He has a friend who is 5’4 and working in security… however not exactly a dealbreaker. The family friend I talked about may be small, but his aura, demeanour is somewhat intimidating. Perhaps not to you, but i doubt the average 5’9 male would mess with him.

Complete buzz cut, serious cauliflower ear, frequent visible bruises and scrapes visible from training, VERY muscular (that 150lbs is associated with single digit BF at 5’4). I imagine he could hold his own very well considering ive seen him smash guys twice his size.

There’s also the question of brute strength. @twojarslave Some people are stronger than others. Anecdotally prior to my latest injuries (severe, need imminent and invasive surgery, i’m devastated) I was able to outlift guys my age who were far bigger than me (including one prior rugby player who was 270lbs)

Some people have a penchant for tensile strength such as myself. Hence it was always commented on (particuarly my boxing coach)… for my size, my punching power was tremendous, I was known for being explosive and being able to hit very, very har… and I had a decent chin, so I was able to spar with people bigger than me.

Going against people my size with a similar skill level typically led to me outmuscling them with ease.

Not to say I think I would have stood a chance against someone much bigger than me, but provided skill levels were equitable/the opponent was less skilled I think I would have faired okay with someone having 20lbs on me.

How important is the strength component? Or is the size barrier what is important and not necessarily the strength component?

I’ll never be a big guy given my genetic limitations unless I decide to wolf down hormones like candy. But being the strongest guy (in terms of lifting) in the room would certainly be possible. I’ve been there before, not sure if I’ll ever be there again… depends on whether I’m able to recover from what I’m dealing with…

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@unreal24278 I think you’re missing the point of the thread all together.

I’ve never been the big guy in a fight either and could share plenty of stories. Still I would never engage with a guy 80-100lbs heavier. Also, bouncers not only tend to be large for this reason but also their ability to control someone smaller without truly hurting them = liability for their establishment. Your 150lb friend I’m sure is a great fighter but he would not be able to control somebody even middle sized without likely causing great harm.

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Your statement describes about 90% of SF soldiers. The old quote: The silent ones are the deadly ones, is certainly true.

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Not 100lbs heavier, too difficult to throw someone that heavy.

But he would DEMOLISH someone 20-30lbs heavier in a street altercation. When it comes to wrestling, he’s routinely beaten people who have 50-80lbs on him.

His avenues to subdue his opponents would likely lead to grevious bodily injury. But he could certainly handle himself.

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That is exactly what @blshaw was saying

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Well that’s normal to me, because that’s how tall I am. As you can see in the photo above, I’m much smaller than two of the other doormen, not to mention weaker than the little 240 lb guy. Poor me.

I’m glad you think that, because they are.

I don’t need to stretch my imagination too far. I’ve trained with a couple of guys who fit that bill, albeit not quite as strong. I’ve got hundreds of sparring rounds with my coach, a 5’9" athletic unit who has competed and won in strength sports.

No need for videos to convince me of this. I’ve sparred with the head instructor where my coach trains and about half of his black belts and brown belts. Video’s don’t send you through the air and then systematically eliminate every option you have before you can get anything going.

That’s not true at all, not for the legitimate Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belts I know. There’s no such thing as a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belt with no stand-up game. Other schools have different standards, however.

There’s no special bouncer laws where I live. Anyone can do the job who gets hired for it. If that worries you, I’d suggest avoiding bars with bouncers.

This is true. Strength training is useful for developing this attribute.

A strength advantage is never a disadvantage. Size is generally an advantage up until the point where it limits your ability to move athletically. Even on top of that, size is still size. There’s a reason different positions in the NFL favor different attributes.

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I’ve got 400 lb calves that can’t grip, are not particularly ‘athletic’ and are truly without malice.

They can knock my 240 lbs around like nothing, just to get at cubes I’m pouring into a trough.
Not because they are badass, because they are 400 lbs.

1800 lb bull - fuggedaboutit. These are badass.

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I stick to finesse whenever I’m fighting domesticated animals that out-weigh me. You can rag-doll a goat easily. An alpaca is going to have a say in how it all goes down, and you really need to bring your A-game once you decide to tangle with a donkey or anything larger.

I cannot stress this enough. None of the techniques discussed in this thread will work on cattle or horses. You should not fight these creatures unless they leave you no choice.

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I don’t fight stock animals because: they are passive/wary by nature (except males on the prowl),
creatures that live outdoors are tough as a boot, and mostly my 88 year old dad has a .30-06 and a 12ga in his truck, always has a knife, and still thinks he is that 20 year old Marine in Korea. :grin:

Side story (think I shared before) We had a Billy goat that I would grab by the horns and push down by laying my weight on his head, think a front head lock. He would lift me off the ground and shake me off. My 60 lb Schnauzer could work him, but he wasn’t scared of men

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I’ve always wondered how I’d do against a large alligator. Like a lot of small guys who pick fights with the bouncer, I think believing in yourself is the most important part of coming out on top against a 15 foot long gator.

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Jeez. I used to bounce and never put this much thought into how fights go. Probably because neither I or anyone I ever had to shove around ever had any clue what we were doing. Good thing I didn’t have to go up against anyone who knew what they were doing, haha.

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If you ever get bit by the martial arts training bug you’ll start putting LOTS of thought into how things like bouncing encounters go, which is part of what makes training martial arts so much fun. Back when I bounced whatever fuckery took place on-shift was always debriefed with my coach and gamed-out on the mats. BJJ training under qualified coaches who lead from the front is awesome. You’d probably dig it.

I’ve also been on the very wrong end of bare-handed violence long before I ever lifted or trained BJJ, and things that might seem obvious to anyone who has successfully worked bar security were absolutely not obvious to me back then.

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Do you know the website BJJfanatics?

Great tutorials/info.