Have you seen the video of the skinny dude on bath salts who needed like 6 guys to hold him down?
You were almost olympic level? Thats pretty sick
Theres a video of a professional kickboxing fight
160lb muay thai fighter vs 220lb champion kickboxer. The 160lb demolished the heavier guy
Size mattersā¦ a lotā¦ but a heavy guy with little to know fight IQ/experience isnāt going to beat an advanced lightweight BJJ purple/brown/black belt.
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Have you ever watched the first UFC?
Youāre using two guys who know how to fight here.
When skill is equal, the heavier/stronger guy wins
But if someone isnt a skilled fighter, skill can level the playing field for a smaller guy.
If you donāt believe me, go into a boxing/wrestling/BJJ gym and ask to roll with a smaller brown belt, ask to wrestle with a smaller collegiate wrestler, box with a smaller guy who has a pro contract.
Yup. On VHS even 
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No, but I have easily pinned a similarly sized, similarly intoxicated man who endured a remarkable amount of punishment from five guys before I stopped them. After getting attacked for my efforts and pinning him he immediately attacked the cops when I let him up. They werenāt as nice as I was.
A 140 lb guy is still 140 lbs, even with drugs. Most men are also inept at controlling violent people.
Thatās not the scenario weāre discussing here. This is the goon thread.
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I donāt see the point arguing hereā¦ Iāve seen it play out before
One of my good friends was a very, very, very good wrestler in HS. He got into a fight with a rugby player who had 50lbs on him, rugby guy didnāt know how to fightā¦
My friend took the rugby dude down in like 20 secondsā¦
Neither were āsmallā per se. Friend was 160 and stocky/shorter, rugby guy was 210lbs or so.
I did not feel like we were.
Martial arts are great for learning how to overcome someone with a size and strength advantage.
The fact martial arts exist for the purpose is proof of concept that size and strength ARE an advantage. Itās why we have weight classes.
Martial arts skill can overcome some size discrepancies. Large size discrepancies can overcome martial arts skill.
I imagine weāre all in agreement on that.
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To be fair
BJJ has open weight comps and comps split by weight class
And very large skill discrepanciss can overtake size discrepancies
Obvioisly if we talk differences of sayā¦ 100lbs + and both parties are athletic its wishful thinking
But not all size is quality size. A morbidly obese fatass isnāt necessarily going to be able to fight.
I donāt feel thatās being fair at all. I think itās focusing on the wrong part of the story, ala Joe Dirt
You HAD to have ignore what I wrote RIGHT before that to write that
Please keep this in good faith my dude.
To bring this thread back-on-track, let me answer the question ofā¦
āWhy should I even bother with goon tactics? Iām a (insert martial artist rank here).ā
You shouldnāt, unless you can. Whether or not you can depends on the situation.
There were many opportunities on the job for me to use violent customers as grappling dummies. I could have gone for flashy and more violent hip tosses instead simple trips, clinches or wall pins. Instead of asking āAre you ready to leave now?ā after putting someone on their ass, I could have followed guys down to the ground, used grueling pressure and set up a kimura to make them say āuncleā. I could have held them down while I take my time setting up a walk-around-armbar. I could have forced the back and choked them out. I could have taken high mount and Mr. Miyagi honked some noses, too, and I kinda regret never doing that.
Why were those options available to me?
Because I was the bigger, stronger, better-trained and more experienced in those situations, usually all four and always at least 2.
Why didnāt I?
Number one, donāt go to the ground unless you need to or unless it is best to.
Number two, it is a whole lot easier and often more effective to simply try the front door first. Being big and strong compared to the person youāre fighting is what allows those āknock on the front door firstā techniques being discussed here to be effective, often moreso than any sort of technical wizardry you might learn at a Rickson Gracie seminar.
Butā¦
Only if youāve got the attributes. If not, you should start defending yourself by avoiding fights in general and specifically with those guys who are bigger and stronger than you. Especially if youāre three sheets to the wind and theyāre bouncers telling you to call a cab. Once youāve got that basic part of handling violence down pat, training is the only way forward. Strength, conditioning and combat.
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Have to appreciate the comedy as well that, instead of putting forth Rickson to represent the Gracie clan for UFC 1, despite him being the absolute golden child of the family, they hand-selected Royce because he was so small of stature. Primarily because they wanted UFC 1 to be a BJJ infomercial. But in THAT regard, itās ALSO proof of concept that even the Gracieās recognized the value in being a hoss on top of being really good at martial arts, because Rickson had BOTH going on.
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Curious, do what martial arts forms do you guys think are most beneficial for street fights/self defense? I always imagined BJJ and Muy Thai would be the magical ticket, but Iāve never trained in either (interested for future prospects).
I think youāll be a pretty complete fighter by street standards with proficiency in BJJ and Muay Thai, but only if youāre addressing stand-up grappling, takedowns and throws.
Starting rolls from the feet during BJJ training was, by far, the biggest training benefit I applied during bouncing situations. First off, it makes you hard to take down and practiced at closing the distance, getting to a clinch or a grip of some kind and then going to work. Toss in a sobriety edge, which is OFTEN a factor in violence whether youāre at a bar or not, and you get situations like the videos I linked above. Youāre totally comfortable in that struggle with another person while the other guy is panicking on the inside.
IMO this stand-up aspect of a fight is where strength training can really shine through as well. You need to get your hands on someone to goon them.
Being fast as fuck is probably the number one best thing you can do from a personal safety perspective. Just be gone.
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A glock
Question would be contextual. Are we asking āif I wanted to get street ready ASAP how should I trainā or is it āWhat would be the master of street defense?ā
For the former, boxing and wrestling pair SO well together, are quick to pick up, and give someone a LOT of valuable tools and skillsets. Even with everything else Iāve trained, itās what I tend to fall back on.
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Do you mean that thereās still a gap in training somewhere, or am i mis-reading this?
Iām not going to be the incel that open carries or feels the need to use a CCW. I would have my wife get a CCW though, but still - that doesnāt work in most situations.
Perhaps not the master of street defense, but I would like to be prepared for most situations - keeping in mind I stay away from trouble as much as possible.
I would also like to eventually have my wife and daughter be competent enough to not get man-handled if Iām not around (my daughter is 5 so this isnāt a next week-type situation) so getting them trained in a couple years is a goal too. I can get away with goon tactics, but neither my wife nor my daughter would have this capability. Do you think boxing/wrestling still apply for the ladies?
I canāt think of a single fighter that has EVER regretted learning how to box and wrestle. Irrespective of whatever direction you end up taking your fighting ācareerā, the skills you pick up there are going to transfer over. When I was teaching my kid martial arts while homeschooling them during COVID, boxing and wrestling featured.
Ideally, if someone is smaller and weaker, those skills are used primarily to create space and run away, but those 2 arts are great for that too.
I also taught my kid how to clinch, throw knees and elbows, and they have a push kick and roundhouse that I donāt want to get hit with, but our big focus was getting away.
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Depends on the schools and their programs. Iāve written a lot about this elsewhere in the Combat forum, so no need to derail here. There are places that advertise themselves as BJJ where you will not train fighting fundamentals likeā¦
Sprawls
Headlock escapes
Bodylock escapes
Strike management
Throws/Takedowns
Dive-and-clinch
Some of this stuff might get lip serviced, but if you find yourself at a school where all of the mat time is on the ground, you wonāt be gaining meaningful proficiency in most struggles youāre likely to encounter off-of-the-mats.
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