A few of us got into a discussion at the gym today about whether 2.5, 5, 15, 35 pound plates were even necessary for most people that go to the gym.
To get to 405 on a lift this would be the progression over time:
95 / 115 / 135 / 155 / 185 / 205 / 225 / 245 / 275 / 295 / 315 / 335 / 365 / 385 / 405
Guy 1 at gym : Thinks this is stupid
Guy 2 at gym: Thinks this will force people to go for it instead of going up 5lb at a time
Guy 3 at gym: Thinks people have been doing this forever, because back in the day weights were more fixed or limited
Guy 4 at gym: Thinks if only using 45/25/10s that double progression should be the method used to increase weights since it forces you to increase reps first.
Me: I currently doing this, and I find it great to only use 45/25/10ās. It forces me to use volume and more reps to build my strength up, but also allows me to take some bigger jumps and face my fear of being under a heavier weight.
If any of you were doing this, how would you program this?
How many reps or sets or total volume would you get to on a particular lift before making the jump?
Just wanting to see how the rest of you would setup, alter, or adjust to only having to use 45, 25, 10lb plates.
EDIT: I know plenty of you are very strong and 45/25 are probably all you really need. Iām just wondering for people that are weaker (for example under a 405 squat) how would you pound the reps before making a jump?
I think if you are reasonably strong you can get by quite well with just 45ās and 25ās for most of your big lifts. Most times I squat or deadlift nothing else goes on the bar.
When I wasnāt following 5/3/1 progression, I still just worked up to one top set for reps, then maybe some drop sets for reps. Some days that would be 495 for 7-10 reps on the deadlift, 545 for 3-5 or even 585 for 1-3. I didnāt really lift with a plan at the time, my partner and I just agreed on a top set weight for the day, and then hit it. It was still pretty close to 5/3/1 with a top set pushed for reps (5/3/1 set) and drop sets pushed for reps (FSL) and the occasional heavy single (Joker). Just not as rigid with the progression scheme.
I think as long as you are adding weight to the bar or reps to your set you are doing fine. When you make the jump up probably depends on the rep range you want to be working in. Maybe you make the jump when you can hit 5 reps at the next weight, maybe 3, maybe 8, maybe 20. Whatever you think gets you where you want to go.
For me the advantage was simplicity and no real need to plan. I just started loading the bar, working up, and deciding what my top set would be based on how I felt that day.
Sounds great man! Thatās exactly what Iām doing right now basically. Dealing with the percentages for me personally is a pain in the ass. But the principles of the program I believe in 100%, so Iāve adjusted to better suit me. So happy I got away from a 3x a week 3x5 lol.
I think if you do most of your training for sets of 8 or more reps I think this approach is fineā¦if you are going for high-end strength using almost exclusively reps of 5 or less this probably isnāt going to work so well.
Dan John has written about this some, and while I like a lot of things from the man, my feelings on the matter are somewhat mixed.
I think that it can be a good idea in the sense that it kinda cuts the bullshit and keeps people from worrying too much about micro-jumps when thereās little difference in the training stimulus between squatting 275 pounds versus 280 pounds, but I also feel that, in my personal strength journey, several times it has been valuable to take some smaller incremental PRās, if for no other reason than the mental boost of hitting a āPRā on a given day.
My deadlift PR over time has gone as follows:
455
475
500
515
550
565
585
600
Thereās something to be said for Dan Johnās school of thought, which is that after hitting a milestone like 455, you shouldnāt re-test your max until youāve built a reserve amount of strength such that youāre ready to hit 495, so it would be fine to do all of your training with 365/405 (or even occasionally 455) until you are ready to go at 495.
My brother has started lifting with me on Saturdays after a long (>5 years) layoff from barbell lifting. Right now, hitting a new āPRā every week seems to be fun and keep him engaged, so I like having the small plates around for that purpose. Heāll hit a 5 or 10 pound PR almost every week for the next month or two, I am guessing. Once heās squatting 315 for a couple reps, then maybe weāll settle into something a little different.
Iāve been doing something really different but itās lead to some PRs lately. I try to not know the weight on the bar until after my top sets. I go out of my way to repeat, āNo math, no mathā in my head. For example, Iāll start with 25ās and start adding 15ās or 10ās or 35ās (less 45ās because the math is too reflexive) based on bar speed and feel.
Now, I know what the bar weight is. I canāt block out basic math. However, really trying to dissociate myself from the weight on the bar has made a huge difference.
The first time I deadlifted 300lbs was due to this. My partner at the time just loaded up the bar. And then afterwards I realized the math and was like oh shit that 300lbs lol.
I uses to do this and it worked well. I didnāt even include 10lbs plates except for every 6 weeks. It worked well then but now Iām weak it would leave me with hardly any volume haha
I used to take the approach that adding 2.5% to the bar will knock off a rep to work out when to jump yo the next plate.
Like everything, this works well until it stops working haha It can be hard work to progress one rep and at that point things get complicated in how you play with volume/intensity/frequency/etc (and you run into the same issues as linear progression).
In the end you find something like 5/3/1 works jusr as well without as much mental gymnastics.
I read that same article years ago and have followed this for my squat and DL. If the next jump feels iffy, then Iāll just hit some volume at the lower increment. It worked well for me to get to my best liftsā¦ Iām sure itāll still work at my old age.
OHP is a tad different. I mostly only use 45s, 25s and 10s though.
Except for some of the sub 135 bar weights you can get every 10lb increment on the bar, For example you said 365/385/405 but you can still do 375 and 395.
Really this kind of thing effects weaker people or lifts that use less bar weight because the % jumps are so big. Like a girl doing bench press there is a big difference between 65lb and 85lb if 10lb was the lowest increment, standing OHP even more so.
Iām currently working up to sets of 8-10 before I consider adding weight for my squat. Based on my current experience, adding 20lb instead of my usual 10lb would bury me.
I would imagine that this makes sense if youāre pretty strong to being with. However, attempting stuff like this when your squat is realistically only around the mid-200s/bench in the low-100/vice versa would be unproductive.
I meanā¦ youāre adding ~9% more to the bar when you go from 225lb to 245lb. Youāre adding ~5% more to the bar when you go from 405lb to 425lb.
I think these ratios probably do matter, especially if you got into weight-lifting well into adulthood and have led a largely sedentary life/havenāt dealt to moving heavy weights beforehand.
testing maxes/hitting PRās definitely falls into a different category from training reps. Iām with you on this.
My general outlook on this is centered around higher rep sets than a single. And the point is, as others have mentioned, almost entirely mental. The people I see in the gym who tend to be the least successful are very often the ones who get bogged down in minutia. So thatās why I give this as general advice.
So the first sentence of the opening post was āare smaller plates even necessaryā. And the answer is no, they are not necessary. Like all things, they have a place in training, particularly for weaker lifters, but nothing is actually necessary outside of hard work.
I do that all the time especially if Iām making a few 20lb jumps. No point in taking off 2x 10s only to add a 25 and 5lb if that is your last set, just add a 3rd 10.
Only using ābigā plates can be cool. Double Progression is cool too. But if youāre not careful, your workout could easily degrade back to, boring, grindy, ā3 sets of 5.ā
Check out Ditillo and Hepburn, THE Double Progression dudes.
Ditillo did multiple weights in the same workout, like a few sets heavy, a few sets medium, and a few sets lighter. Or the regular lift, then some heavy partials or something crazy in the rack. He progressed gradually, and lifted the same weights for awhile before moving up, but he trained in different āintensity rangesā or used multiple weights while he did it.
According to this article, Hepburn did āpower workā heavy and āpump workā slightly less heavy in the same workout.
This morning I had two 10s and two 5s on each side for my last set (I only have four 10s at home).
I also started to approach my workout with only 45s and 25s but I prefer to make 30 lb jumps on snatch grip deads. I like generating a little volume on the way to my heavy single.
Mostly because I do % based training and if that is what Iām supposed to do for the day I donāt increase it. For example if it said to do 155, 175 and 195, your saying to do 155, 185 and 195. If I have enough 10s Iām just going to do what the program says. More plate switching simply for the sake of being against using 3 10s per side is pointless.
