Unbalanced Arimidex/Anastrozole dosing?

Pharma TRT
21

SC VS IM: When I switched EOD IM to EOD SC my TT/FT numbers did not change. I made this change a long time ago. Again, the “Canadian clinical SC vs IM study” showed less peaks and higher troughs and the subjects, I believe, felt better. But I think that that study was IM once a week VS SC once a week. When injecting EOD, levels will be very steady with SC or IM. So SC vs IM when injecting EOD will really be a comfort issue and reduction of cumulative muscle damage from needles.

SC injecting provides an option to IM and one can then use whatever method one is more comfortable with. This is all a long way from sticking a 1.5" #22 or #23 in ones butt ever week or two weeks! You cannot expect to find doctors concerned about the effects of T levels variations or injection discomfort. The experiences of others is your best guide.

22

I’ve been on SC injections for weeks now and will never return to IM.

23

Has anybody noticed any difference in Libido between SC and IM? How about DHT, hair loss etc?

24

T–>DHT is driven by T levels, if T ,levels are the same, no difference.

Hair loss for those who are genetically prone is driven by DHT. T–>DHT takes place in the skin and hair follicles [and elsewhere], not in tissue directly involved in SC or IM injections. Let me know if you have local hair loss over your SC quad injections.

Libido is affected by DHT levels and other things. Where the DHT is created is immaterial. The effect is probably the direct effect of DHT on the brain.

DHT can be increased by applying topical T to skin. This effect is quite strong on the scrotum, perhaps because T absorbs there very well. Guys on transdermal T have more DHT than guys who inject, if they are good absorbers. 1% T gels will create more DHT than 10-20% T creams as more skin area [and hair follicles] is covered with T. However, that also means that there is more T–>E with T gels, compared to creams, from large skin areas aromatizing T–>E.

25

I switched to SC in the middle of the thigh today. Very painless and since my tan line is below the injection spot, I can see the blood vessels to avoid. I have no pain, lump, or even a drop of blood after the injection.

I am a little worried however that when my body fat % drops that it will be hard to pinch enough fat there. I barely have enough there now to get maybe an inch pulled up. You would think that I would have a lot of fat there but it all seems to be on my belly and chest. Maybe the skin will get looser?

I did my injection about the middle of the thigh right in the center. How far up and down can I go when rotating sites? I look at all the videos and websites I could find, but they all inject in roughly the same place and don’t address rotation.

Anyway, thanks again for all of your advise.

26

You can inject SC where ever it is comfortable. Some areas have less sensation than others.

Reminder for those who are passing by: IM injections have very important injection site restrictions that need to be understood.

27

I’m getting some redness around the SC injection site and it feels a little firm underneath. (about a 1.5" diameter area with a slightly asymetrical border) An infrared thermometer tells me there is about a 3 degree temp difference between the red area and the normal colored surrounding tissue. It’s been 32 hours since the injection. Has anyone else had any similar experiences? Cellulitis?

28

One can get low grade infections like that. They mostly resolve by themselves by immune function. But do keep an eye on it. Your injection technique could be the problem.

When you remove the cap from the needle you can wipe the needle across the tip of your thumb if you are not holding things right. Your thumb needs to be back from the gap.

Was this your first SC inject? As I stated, SC in my abs created inflammation, but not over my quads. There can be issues that are not infection.

29

It was my first SC injection. I marked the red border yesterday as soon as I noticed it and it has only grown slightly as of this morning. There is still a slight temp difference between the injection spot and the healthy surrounding tissue, but that can probably happen with any inflamation. I’m not as worried about it today as I was yesterday.

I’m pretty cautious about sterility so I don’t think I touched the needle. However, I did transfer the Test from the large syringe to the insulin syringe so maybe that process has to be looked at more carefully. I would assume that the cypionate has some form of bacteriostatic component so exposing the cypionate to the atmosphere would pose little risk of contamination. I had absolutely no problem with the last IM injection using an insulin syringe that was filled at the same time as the one that caused this issue. My method is to pull one plunger at a time and situate that plunger between my fingers so that the black rubber does not come into contact with anything. I inject from the large syringe into the barrel of the insulin syringe adding just over the required dose. I put the plunger back in slightly and tip the syring so that the needle is pointing up and wait until the testosterone flows to the bottom and the air is between the rubber and the needle. I then push the plunger up to expel the air and any extra liquid. I need to pull the pin cover off to do this. A few drops of T drip down the needle so maybe that is the problem. Maybe I need to swab the pins after filling and before replacing the cap.

Do you think it would be safer to just purchase some sterile vials and fill them by injecting with the remaining large syringes rather than backfilling?

30

Why not simply fill the insulin syringe directly? That is what others are doing.

31

My Doc fills my script with preloaded syringes. I’ll get him to fill the next batch with my syringes unless I can talk him into just giving me the script so that I can source it myself. I can probably save a lot of money doing it that way. I’m paying $53 per month for 600mg Testosterone Cypionate, $50 per month for 5mg Anastrozole, and $50 per month for 2500iu HCG.

The redness from the first shot went away on its own with no antibiotics. Injection#2 did roughly the same thing in the other leg. The red area is a bit larger, but it is not as firm or sensitive under the surface. I’m thinking that it is not an infection, but some kind of reaction. I just did #3 this morning, so I will keep an eye on it to see if this pattern keeps up.

32

They will not fill insulin syringes with T… too slow for them.

33

jrm850

Top Sirloin is a smart man and he preaches a plan that I have been following for just about 10 months and will continue for the rest of my life. I had similar lab results to yours, it drove me to research various diets and workouts (both cardio and weight training). Christ, I even tried P90X, but no matter what I did, I was having a terrible time trying to cut weight and to top it off I felt like shit every day.

While researching on the internet, I stumbled upon this website and also on an article about Low Carb dieting by Jonny Bowden who authored the book “Living Low Carb”. In his book, Bowden gives a synopsis of various diets and the associated books written about them. The book basically explains what the diet is about and helps you decide whether a specific diet will work for you or not.

I eventually chose a book authored by Drs. Michael and Mary Eades titled “The Protein Power LifePlan”. This book explains in detail exactly what Top Sirloin has been talking about; you need to read this book. I live this book and have re-read it several times. I have cut out all white flours, bread, pastas, sugars and haven’t looked back; basically, I eat like a cave man (Fish, Chicken, lots of vegetables, select fruits, and water), no alcohol, smoke, etc.

Just as Sirloin says in so many words, live like a hunter gatherer, the world got fat with agriculture and processed foods. I thought it would be very tough adjusting because I believed that without carbs I would shrivel up, but in reality the carbs were killing me. This book will also give you great insight into the real story regarding Triglycerides and Very Low Density Lipids (VLDL), the real threat to your cardiac system.

It’s a great book, I suggest you read it. In fact read both books, several times; it will help you save your life. I am also on TRT, Arimidex, take thyroid meds, Lovaza (prescription fish oil) and I feel great. I’ve gone from a body weight of 275 to 230 at 6’2" tall and am looking to get to 215. The combination of a (very)Low Carb diet and TRT has put me on the right track.
Good Luck jrm850 and keep up the good work Top Sirloin.

34

[quote]rbarker wrote:
jrm850

Top Sirloin is a smart man and he preaches a plan that I have been following for just about 10 months and will continue for the rest of my life. I had similar lab results to yours, it drove me to research various diets and workouts (both cardio and weight training). Christ, I even tried P90X, but no matter what I did, I was having a terrible time trying to cut weight and to top it off I felt like shit every day.

While researching on the internet, I stumbled upon this website and also on an article about Low Carb dieting by Jonny Bowden who authored the book “Living Low Carb”. In his book, Bowden gives a synopsis of various diets and the associated books written about them. The book basically explains what the diet is about and helps you decide whether a specific diet will work for you or not.

I eventually chose a book authored by Drs. Michael and Mary Eades titled “The Protein Power LifePlan”. This book explains in detail exactly what Top Sirloin has been talking about; you need to read this book. I live this book and have re-read it several times. I have cut out all white flours, bread, pastas, sugars and haven’t looked back; basically, I eat like a cave man (Fish, Chicken, lots of vegetables, select fruits, and water), no alcohol, smoke, etc.

Just as Sirloin says in so many words, live like a hunter gatherer, the world got fat with agriculture and processed foods. I thought it would be very tough adjusting because I believed that without carbs I would shrivel up, but in reality the carbs were killing me. This book will also give you great insight into the real story regarding Triglycerides and Very Low Density Lipids (VLDL), the real threat to your cardiac system.

It’s a great book, I suggest you read it. In fact read both books, several times; it will help you save your life. I am also on TRT, Arimidex, take thyroid meds, Lovaza (prescription fish oil) and I feel great. I’ve gone from a body weight of 275 to 230 at 6’2" tall and am looking to get to 215. The combination of a (very)Low Carb diet and TRT has put me on the right track.
Good Luck jrm850 and keep up the good work Top Sirloin. [/quote]

Thanks RB, I appreciate the encouragment.

I have cut out all breads, flours, Rice, potatos,Pasta, sugars, and alcohols for a week and a half now, with the exception of 1 cheat day over the weekend. I eat very little fruit but keep it to the lower glycemic index fruits like berries or an apple.

I initially dropped a couple of pounds in the first week, but frustratingly put a few back on and seems to be holding for the last 4 days. My diet pretty much consists of turkey,chicken,broccoli, nuts, whey protein and cheese. My caloric intake has been under 2000 everyday and some days as low as 1200.

Last week I worked out 3 days and did HiiT cardio the other two. What I noticed by the end of last week is that I am losing strength fast on my workouts so I think I am overtraining. I am going to switch the routine to 1 fullbody HIT workout per week and HIIT cardio the other 4 days.

I’m getitng very discouraged. 4 months of intense excercise has resulted in a lot of gains but very little weight loss. It was never this hard to ditch weight before. I am wondering if there is not some other metabolic problem that I am overlooking like thyroid, liver impairment or diabetes. I feel pretty healthy other than I am finding that my arms fall asleep a lot when I am laying in bed and this morning I took my temp after a cup of coffee and it was 77.0 degrees. I checked my blood sugar last night 2.5 hours after eating and it was 98. My doc never checked thyroid levels and I don’t really have any other symptoms that would lead me to believe that it was problematic, but I will ask him to get the labs on my next visit. The only other thing I can think of is that one of my liver markers was high.
Thanks for your advice…I just ordered living low carb a few minutes ago.

35

jrm850

My first thought is that you are hurting your metabolism by taking in so few calories while performing so much cardio and weight training. You may be over training, listen to your body, but you need to fuel the machine; your body will need more protein to burn especially while it’s adjusting to the carb cut back.

At the same time you will more than likely lose (weight lifting) strength if while at the same time you are doing the amount of HIIT training that you are. I would suggest that you cut the cardio down a bit and adjust accordingly until you’ve dialed in your cardio & weight training.

As I mentioned in my first post, your symptoms are very similar to what mine were and as it turned out, I was suffering from Hypothyroidism for which I am now taking medication. It may take a month or two to dial in the right dosage, but the reward is worth it; you should also look into the possibilty of Adrenal fatique. You should go ahead and order “The Protein Power Life Plan”, I guarantee you will come to the conclusion that it is the plan you need.

DO NOT get discouraged, things will come together for you. Get the right Doc, be upfront and honest with him/her. Tell him/her your problems and what you think needs to be done. I’ve read every sticky on this website and they are full of great information. Get a full panel of tests done (READ the STICKIES).

I’m no expert, but reading the information available from guys like KS Man, PureChance, Top Sirloin and others is priceless and it helps arm you with information to make suggestions or even question your Doctors actions. I learn more every time I’m on this website and have had my Dr. make changes to my meds and supplements based on what I’ve learned here.

Keep your chin up, Rome wasn’t built in a day. LOL
RB

36

[quote]jrm850 wrote:
Thanks RB, I appreciate the encouragment.

I have cut out all breads, flours, Rice, potatos,Pasta, sugars, and alcohols for a week and a half now, with the exception of 1 cheat day over the weekend. I eat very little fruit but keep it to the lower glycemic index fruits like berries or an apple.

I initially dropped a couple of pounds in the first week, but frustratingly put a few back on and seems to be holding for the last 4 days. My diet pretty much consists of turkey,chicken,broccoli, nuts, whey protein and cheese. My caloric intake has been under 2000 everyday and some days as low as 1200.

Last week I worked out 3 days and did HiiT cardio the other two. What I noticed by the end of last week is that I am losing strength fast on my workouts so I think I am overtraining. I am going to switch the routine to 1 fullbody HIT workout per week and HIIT cardio the other 4 days.

I’m getitng very discouraged. 4 months of intense excercise has resulted in a lot of gains but very little weight loss. It was never this hard to ditch weight before. I am wondering if there is not some other metabolic problem that I am overlooking like thyroid, liver impairment or diabetes. I feel pretty healthy other than I am finding that my arms fall asleep a lot when I am laying in bed and this morning I took my temp after a cup of coffee and it was 77.0 degrees. I checked my blood sugar last night 2.5 hours after eating and it was 98. My doc never checked thyroid levels and I don’t really have any other symptoms that would lead me to believe that it was problematic, but I will ask him to get the labs on my next visit. The only other thing I can think of is that one of my liver markers was high.
Thanks for your advice…I just ordered living low carb a few minutes ago. [/quote]

I agree with others; you are doing an excellent job. Keep focusing on behaviors, rather than just outcomes (Charles Staley, wrote a great article about this). The list of foods you are eating is great - that should be your diet whether 160 or 360 pounds. So, don’t lose site of that fact that you ARE healthier on this plan, regardless of weight. There are lots of skinny people dying from cancer, diabetes and CVD.

The glucose is a little high post-prandial, but depends on gastric emptying and total carb load. So, not accurate; need fasting glucose upon waking. However the 98 is not anywhere near clinical diabetes, just FYI.

Averaging 1600 cals is a bit low for your body weight. Plus, you may indeed be dealing with a low thyroid and lowering cals to much may downregulate it more. Try the 1800-2000 mark for a while. You are definitely insulin resistant so thyroid tests will likely show that. But this condition CAN be reversed, so put faith in the new lifestyle before a lab test. You have made some major changes and you must give them a shot.

That body temp of 77 would mean you are dead… seriously, that cannot be accurate. A body temp below 90 and you are hyperthermic and should be headed for the hospital. I have a naturally low body temp, with a “cold” temp of around 97. Try taking your temp first thing in the AM, before even getting out of bed, sublingual. Do it three times each time you test and use different sides of the mouth each time. While you are there, also get resting heart rate. Having a consistent low temp and high HR, could mean something (over-training for one). But you need a solid week of data. Take these two things and post results.

As far as training - strength IS NOT THE GOAL! Saving your life is. You MUST continue intense cardio (barring a legit health issue). Go back to what I suggested and hit some full body training, 3xweek, low reps, medium/heavy wts. Do your HIIT ON THE SAME DAY after a 5-10 min breather. Then in between lifting days DO NOT do HIIT, do low intensity stuff. You have to give your nervous system a break. If you are lifting heavy or doing HIIT almost everyday, you will burn out.

I would also suggest posting your actual diet - record approx ounces/grams of each macronutrient and timing and post.

37

[quote]TopSirloin wrote:

I agree with others; you are doing an excellent job. Keep focusing on behaviors, rather than just outcomes (Charles Staley, wrote a great article about this). The list of foods you are eating is great - that should be your diet whether 160 or 360 pounds. So, don’t lose site of that fact that you ARE healthier on this plan, regardless of weight. There are lots of skinny people dying from cancer, diabetes and CVD.

The glucose is a little high post-prandial, but depends on gastric emptying and total carb load. So, not accurate; need fasting glucose upon waking. However the 98 is not anywhere near clinical diabetes, just FYI.

Averaging 1600 cals is a bit low for your body weight. Plus, you may indeed be dealing with a low thyroid and lowering cals to much may downregulate it more. Try the 1800-2000 mark for a while. You are definitely insulin resistant so thyroid tests will likely show that. But this condition CAN be reversed, so put faith in the new lifestyle before a lab test. You have made some major changes and you must give them a shot.

That body temp of 77 would mean you are dead… seriously, that cannot be accurate. A body temp below 90 and you are hyperthermic and should be headed for the hospital. I have a naturally low body temp, with a “cold” temp of around 97. Try taking your temp first thing in the AM, before even getting out of bed, sublingual. Do it three times each time you test and use different sides of the mouth each time. While you are there, also get resting heart rate. Having a consistent low temp and high HR, could mean something (over-training for one). But you need a solid week of data. Take these two things and post results.

As far as training - strength IS NOT THE GOAL! Saving your life is. You MUST continue intense cardio (barring a legit health issue). Go back to what I suggested and hit some full body training, 3xweek, low reps, medium/heavy wts. Do your HIIT ON THE SAME DAY after a 5-10 min breather. Then in between lifting days DO NOT do HIIT, do low intensity stuff. You have to give your nervous system a break. If you are lifting heavy or doing HIIT almost everyday, you will burn out.

I would also suggest posting your actual diet - record approx ounces/grams of each macronutrient and timing and post.[/quote]

That was a typo that should have read 97.0 degrees after a cup of coffee. I checked it the following two days right when I woke up and recorded 95.9, 96.4. The following morning my wife woke me up in an… unusual way and I measured 97.1 afterwards. This morning my temp was 96.7. It seems to be trending upwards so I will record it all week. I will also get a another thermometer to confirm the accuracy of the first. I checked my wife’s temp with the same thermometer this morning and she measured 98.2 so I am pretty sure it is working correctly.

I took a couple days off of training to relax and let everything recover. I even had a couple glasses of red wine. I have to say that I feel a lot better and even dropped a couple of pounds, which is pretty encouraging. Another weird thing is that I started getting some DOMS in my chest and arms but the onset was much later than my usal pattern. I usually start feeling sore a day after a workout and it peaks about 48 hours after. I started getting sore 3 days after the workout when I wasn’t doing any exercise. I’m not sure what that means, but I feel like I have my strength back. This afternoons workout will let me know.

I will post my diet, exercise routine, waking temps, glucose readings, waking heart rate and whatever data I can collect to help paint a better picture of what is going on. I really appreciate all of the help you guys are giving me.

Yesterday I ended the day with 1521 calories with too many of those coming from fat. 30% protein, 44% fat, and 26% carbs. I am back on the diet today and will take your advice on the exercise program starting today. I am going to have to work at getting 2000 calories eating only lean foods and veggies. That is a LOT of food :slight_smile: How much fat should I be eating?

Thanks again for the help! I will collect my data and post it on friday.

38

If you other readers are wondering, the above is the first discussion of waking temperature and thyroid concerns and there has not been a discussion of iodine intake thus far. Based on the reported temperature readings, thyroid labs would be a good idea. When waking temps are low, one should review iodine intake and switch to iodized salt if one has been using sea salt or kosher salt.

Treatment with thyroid hormones should not be used to compensate for a dietary iodine deficiency. And yes, often one still needs thyroid meds. Management of thyroid conditions is much more involved and complicated than TRT, and as with TRT, can be mismanaged by many doctors. So once again, one must take charge of their own health care. Some cases of hyperthyroidism lead to lower T levels and on some cases, restoring thyroid levels improves T levels.

There is an issue with TRT that disregards other conditions. If one has low thyroid levels, TRT can increase metabolic demands and a low thyroid hormone status may not be able to sustain the new metabolic demands. This can result in one hitting the wall [crash]. The concept of finding the next weak link must be kept in mind. More and more docs are prescribing T when drug reps prep them and they know nothing else.

Note that sore muscles can push up “liver enzymes” in your lab work. Those are not liver specific. When you do lab work that includes these items, often included as part of a complete blood count [CBC], you should try to not have any muscle soreness.

39

[quote]jrm850 wrote:
That was a typo that should have read 97.0 degrees after a cup of coffee. I checked it the following two days right when I woke up and recorded 95.9, 96.4. The following morning my wife woke me up in an… unusual way and I measured 97.1 afterwards. This morning my temp was 96.7. It seems to be trending upwards so I will record it all week. I will also get a another thermometer to confirm the accuracy of the first. I checked my wife’s temp with the same thermometer this morning and she measured 98.2 so I am pretty sure it is working correctly.

I took a couple days off of training to relax and let everything recover. I even had a couple glasses of red wine. I have to say that I feel a lot better and even dropped a couple of pounds, which is pretty encouraging. Another weird thing is that I started getting some DOMS in my chest and arms but the onset was much later than my usal pattern. I usually start feeling sore a day after a workout and it peaks about 48 hours after. I started getting sore 3 days after the workout when I wasn’t doing any exercise. I’m not sure what that means, but I feel like I have my strength back. This afternoons workout will let me know.

I will post my diet, exercise routine, waking temps, glucose readings, waking heart rate and whatever data I can collect to help paint a better picture of what is going on. I really appreciate all of the help you guys are giving me.

Yesterday I ended the day with 1521 calories with too many of those coming from fat. 30% protein, 44% fat, and 26% carbs. I am back on the diet today and will take your advice on the exercise program starting today. I am going to have to work at getting 2000 calories eating only lean foods and veggies. That is a LOT of food :slight_smile: How much fat should I be eating?

Thanks again for the help! I will collect my data and post it on friday. [/quote]

Fat is the primary human fuel!! With your situation, I would recommend a macro something along these lines: pro 35%, carb 25% (from mostly veggies), fat 40%… looks like you were not far off on yesterday’s meals. Also, remember 44% of 1521 is not the sam as 44% of 2500 or 3000, especially considering you are eating “clean.” Since you are hypo-caloric 670 cals from GOOD fats is GREAT.

Dietary fat should come from 1/3 or less saturated (both animal, e.g. eggs, and vegetal, e.g. coconut oil), 1/3 polyunsaturated but lean toward the omega 3’s here (GLA and CLA are great omega 6’s though) and 1/3 or more from monounsaturated (nuts, avocado, olive oil, etc). Reduce as much pro-inflammatory omega 6 as possible such as cottonseed oil, soy bean oil (eliminate all soy for that matter), canola oil is okay in small amt since it has a fair bit of omega 3 and 6, and “vegetable” oil. BTW, it’s easy to increase cals on clean foods - just add fat to each meal like nuts and olive oil.

I think you were over-training based on how you bounced back after taking a break. And, being a degree and a half or so from normal body temp, you do appear to be hypothyroid. But, I will say again, that is to be EXPECTED when you have not been eating/exercising properly for some time. That is like getting sand in your shoes while walking across a beach… it is par for the course. You need to give the TRT and new lifestyle some time to kick in the thyroid. I highly recommend as KSman mentioned to ensure iodine is part of your diet. I hate the taste of iodized salt (will only use sea salt), but my multi has a decent dose.

TS

40

I have been eating sea salt without any Iodine supplimentation for years until I started reading the this forum and the stickys from KSman. I try not to add any salt to my diet because of the blood pressure issue (Which is pretty much under control now).

My Multi V, that I started taking about a month ago, has 150mcg of Iodine in it and I assumed that was enough. Should I take kelp as well? Would it take some time to overcome a couple of years of Iodine deficiency in the diet? My temps are definitely low. 96.5 yesterday, 96.4 today. My fasting glucose was 85 yesterday, 83 today.

I got to 1885 calories yesterday by adding more nuts, whey protein, and a couple more eggs. I have been either grilling or using Olive oil only for cooking.

My workout went well yesterday, but I definitely do not have the energy I had when I was eating more calories. I lowered the weights a bit and really concentrated on form. It felt like a really good workout. I did 15 minutes on the treadmill afterwards. I run at 10mph until my heart reaches 160bpm and then slow it down to 4mph until it drops to 130bpm then repeat. I think I had 5 sprint sessions during the 15 minutes and covered 1.35 miles. I have a long way to go on the cardio.