The problem with saying that a fighter in the UFC would do great in pride is the huge amount of diffrence in the competition strategies. Few people ever realize how much different that cage is from a boxing ring until they are in one. The entire ground game of a fighter has to be very different. That is one of the reasons that Chuck Liddell did so poorly in his Pride fight, he has always trained to fight in the cage. Try watching some of the videos of older matches and see how he always gets off the ground.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
slimjim wrote:
ZEB wrote:
By the way Matt Hughes is a very serious power in the welter weight division. Currently I don’t think anyone in the world at 170lbs. can beat him!
Bj Penn…been there, done that,
Did you somehow miss the word “CURRENTLY?”
[/quote]
Did you somehow miss BJ kicking his ass all over the mat? His ground game was fifty thousand times better than Hughes, which really sucks for Hughes cause he’s a grappler, so I don’t see much changing if Dana White were to stop being a pussy and let him back in. Also,do I have to remind everyone that BJ came up from a lower weight class specifically to fight Hughes and stomp all over his ass?
Rickson Gracie, for his credentials just ask any of his brothers who the best fighter of them was and pretty much all of them will say Rickson which is a pretty good stamp of approval I’d say.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
ZEB wrote:
slimjim wrote:
ZEB wrote:
By the way Matt Hughes is a very serious power in the welter weight division. Currently I don’t think anyone in the world at 170lbs. can beat him!
Bj Penn…been there, done that,
Did you somehow miss the word “CURRENTLY?”
Did you somehow miss BJ kicking his ass all over the mat? His ground game was fifty thousand times better than Hughes, which really sucks for Hughes cause he’s a grappler, so I don’t see much changing if Dana White were to stop being a pussy and let him back in. Also,do I have to remind everyone that BJ came up from a lower weight class specifically to fight Hughes and stomp all over his ass?[/quote]
Wow you really have a difficult time with the word “CURRENTLY” don’t you? The Penn fight was darn near two years ago. I take nothing away from Penn, he’s a great fighter. But Hughes has gotten far better since that experience. Have you followed the evolution of his training? Probably not. Do you think great fighters stay the same? Do you actually think Hughes would fight Penn the same way? No seriously…
I trained under (both literally and figuratively lol) Royce Gracie for a while one summer back in the late 90’s. He did in fact tell me that the entire family thought Rickson was the best of the group. But what does that actually prove?
A great fighter is only “great” if he beats the best fighters of the day (in his weight class). Tell me now (and please feel free to look it up), who did Rickson beat?
I’m not saying Rickson is not a great Jiu-Jitsu stylist. What I’m saying is that he is far from the best, as he never beat the best of this day.
I want to be in Pride FC when I’m older. How the hell do you get into organizations like this anyway?
dl-
Think about this…why do most international fighters skip the UFC and go straight to Pride?
- Money
- Better fighters
- No Idiot fans who BOOO when they start grappling
- Better rules (i.e. pride allows knees on the ground & kicks to the head while someone is on the ground)
This topic has been gone over in great detail on www.sherdog.net
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Wow you really have a difficult time with the word “CURRENTLY” don’t you? The Penn fight was darn near two years ago. I take nothing away from Penn, he’s a great fighter. But Hughes has gotten far better since that experience. Have you followed the evolution of his training? Probably not. Do you think great fighters stay the same? Do you actually think Hughes would fight Penn the same way? No seriously…
[/quote]
How can you say Hughes is better without a rematch? currently or otherwise, until he beats Penn he can’t be considered better. Look at his competition currently, besides GSP, he doesn’t have much in the UFC to back up your statement…Frank Trigg? no! BJ’s only loss in the UFC came via decision that I thought was way off the mark. And his only other loss was to a guy that outweighed him by thirty pounds and pulled a lay and pray.
Well it initially sounded like you were knocking on the Gracies as has become popular today in the absence of a dominant fighter out of their family. Rickson fought a lot of guys, but is too old to fight in today’s MMA when he really could’ve made a name for himself, so I guess we’ll never really know if he was as good as they say.
[quote]dl- wrote:
I want to be in Pride FC when I’m older. How the hell do you get into organizations like this anyway?
dl-[/quote]
Start training with a local school or martial arts center. Eventually when you get good enough (unless you are like Brad Imes it will take quite a while) you can start entering some amateur competitions which allows you to meet people and improve your skills.
If you prove yourself you will eventually be asked to compete in the pro levels in small competitions which will either get you seen by some of the important people or will at least give you some good video coverage.
It is the video coverage from smaller competitions that will usually get people the chance to fight in the big leagues. The websites of some of the competitions will give addresses on where to send the tapes.
Good luck,
Monster
[quote]slimjim wrote:
You are a funny guy. It is my OPINION that no one could touch him CURRENTLY. That includes Penn, and any one else who steps in the Octagon with him. Pure conjecture, but isn’t that what being a sports fan is all about?
I am basing my opinion on his training. By the way how many people ever beat Hughes in his entire career? Answer that one…
Wrong!
We do know exactly how good he was. All we have to do is look at the people he beat. Did he beat the best of the best, like all the great fighting champions did? NO! He earned his reputation fighting nobodys. It’s a fact that Gracie lovers (and I am one of them by the way) hate to admit, but it happens to be the truth.
You probably didn’t realize that he had the first opportunity to fight in the UFC back in 93’ when it first launched. Rorian talked to him first as he was considered the best fighter in the Gracie family, by the members of the family. He turned it down cold! He didn’t want to step into the Octagon against the likes of Kimo, Shamrock, Severon and the rest of the unknowns(the best of their time). Instead Royce took up the challenge and did a great job in showing the world the mastery of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.
If it were not for the Gracies everyone would still be walking around thinking that stand up Karate fighters were untouchable. I think the world of Martial Arts owes a debt to the Gracie family. BUT…that does not mean that Rickson was anywhere near the best MMA fighter of his time as he fought nobodys! Cherry picked nobodys!
I hope this clears it up for you…
Hitting my head on the wall would more productive than arguing with you Zeb. Hughes has less than five losses, I’m not saying he isn’t good because obviously he is, all I’m saying is he isn’t better than Penn.
As for the statement that Rorion went to Rickson first, there’s so many rumors about why Royce was the one to enter, they wanted the smallest Gracie to demonstrate BJJ against larger individuals, Royce and Rorion were training together in america already, so on and so on. I said we’ll never know how good Rickson really was and your answer is wrong? How can you say just how good he was if he never lost or fought the best fighters of his era? Please enlighten me there. It’s like performing a alternating series test on a sequence and finding bn+1 larger than bn, it’s inconclusive.
Come on… you do realize that Rickson made his reputation fighting nobodys right?
If you think I’m wrong please give me a list of Ricksons “400” opponents. They were fake wrestlers, guys looking for a quick buck and other stellar contenders.
Please don’t beat the “Rickson was incredible drum” because there really is nothiing to back that up.
There is no way you can match up Rickson to any fighter today. Most fighters today are juiced up and just ungodly huge. If not for the popularity BJJ would not be as popular as it is today and Rorion founded the UFC. Rickson put Pride on the map.
Rickson is a 7th Degree Black Belt Open Class Champion of the Gracie Family, whose technique is considered to be the finest expression of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in the world. His innate talent and early mastery of the sport have resulted in an impeccable undefeated record in more than 400 fights, including Jiu-Jitsu tournaments, free-style wrestling, Sambo, open weight free-style competitions, and no holds barred challenge matches. Rickson is a two time Brazilian Champion in free-style wrestling, a Gold Medal Winner of Sambo, and for almost two decades he has been the middle-heavyweight and no weight division World Jiu-Jitsu Champion. Most recently, he conquered Japan’s elite fighting in a tournament, the Japan Open Vale Tudo, winning both in 1994 and 1995. At this time, Rickson was acknowledged by the Japanese for possessing the Samurai Spirit.
In the 1997 Pride 1 Vale Tudo match in Japan’s Tokyo Dome (before 47,860 spectators), he defeated Japan’s top ranked fighter, Nobuhiko Takada, in 4:47 of the first round. A year later, to the day, in the 1998 Pride 4 Vale Tudo match, Rickson defended his title. In the most awaited rematch in martial arts history, drawing an overwhelming 50,000 spectators to Japan’s Tokyo Dome, Rickson defeated Takata once again. At Colosseum 2000, held at the Tokyo Dome, broadcast to 30 million TV Tokyo viewers (the highest viewed television program for its time slot), Rickson fought Japan’s number one fighter, Masakatsu Funaki. He defeated his opponent with a rear naked choke in 11:46 of the first round.
[quote]samsmarts wrote:
^Silva makes even more per fight. And then there is Bob Sapp making nearly a million per fight.
Not to mention Royce Gracie is charging K-1 nearly a million to fight in their upcoming New years show.
UFC is in a rebuilding mode and at the moment they just cant afford big names. Seriously look at their heavy weight division, its a joke.
Hopefully as MMA becomes mainstream and UFCs pockets get deeper we will see more and more of the best fighters actually fighting in USA.
[/quote]
Royce Gracie is charging a million? That’s kinda sad, considering he hasn’t beaten a decent opponent in ten years.
[quote]MAKO068 wrote:
There is no way you can match up Rickson to any fighter today. Most fighters today are juiced up and just ungodly huge. If not for the popularity BJJ would not be as popular as it is today and Rorion founded the UFC. Rickson put Pride on the map.
[/quote]
Uhh…there are weight classes.
[quote]MAKO068 wrote:
Rickson is a 7th Degree Black Belt Open Class Champion of the Gracie Family, whose technique is considered to be the finest expression of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in the world. His innate talent and early mastery of the sport have resulted in an impeccable undefeated record in more than 400 fights, including Jiu-Jitsu tournaments, free-style wrestling, Sambo, open weight free-style competitions, and no holds barred challenge matches. Rickson is a two time Brazilian Champion in free-style wrestling, a Gold Medal Winner of Sambo, and for almost two decades he has been the middle-heavyweight and no weight division World Jiu-Jitsu Champion. Most recently, he conquered Japan’s elite fighting in a tournament, the Japan Open Vale Tudo, winning both in 1994 and 1995. At this time, Rickson was acknowledged by the Japanese for possessing the Samurai Spirit.
[/quote]
We’re talking about MMA, not jui-jitsu or Sambo. Whether he’s good at these things is besides the point. and who the hell cares if he has the “Samurai Spirit”?
[quote]MAKO068 wrote:
In the 1997 Pride 1 Vale Tudo match in Japan’s Tokyo Dome (before 47,860 spectators), he defeated Japan’s top ranked fighter, Nobuhiko Takada, in 4:47 of the first round. A year later, to the day, in the 1998 Pride 4 Vale Tudo match, Rickson defended his title. In the most awaited rematch in martial arts history, drawing an overwhelming 50,000
spectators to Japan’s Tokyo Dome, Rickson defeated Takata once again. At Colosseum 2000, held at the Tokyo Dome, broadcast to 30 million TV Tokyo viewers (the highest viewed television program for its time slot), Rickson fought Japan’s number one fighter, Masakatsu Funaki. He defeated his opponent with a rear naked choke in 11:46 of the first round.
[/quote]
Takada is a joke. His record is 2-6. He lost to Rickson at the very first Pride fight, to call him Japan’s best is kinda silly. The best at what?
I will give you that Funaki is decent, but you need to fight more than one good fighter to be considered one of the best.
The fact remains that we’ll never really know how good the Gracies were, because they were only winning fights against decent opponents when MMA was in its infancy and few knew the ground game.
According to MMA sites Rickson only beat the following in legit MMA fights:
Funaki: A solid fighter.
Bud Smith: Who?
Nobuhiko Takada twice: Takada’s only major accomplishment was beating Mark Coleman and now being part of the Pride wigs.
Yuki Nakai: He has an impressive Vale Tudo and Shooto record.
David Levicki: The Kung Fu gaint was a can.
Yoshinori Nishi: Who?
Yamamoto: A legit fighter who actually Beat Mark Kerr. But Yamamoto was very new to MMA when Rickson choked him out.
Kimura: Infamous for a submission move, but that is about it.
Rei Zulu: The guy only has one win in his MMA career.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
Hitting my head on the wall would more productive than arguing with you Zeb.[/quote]
Well, if you must…
And all I’m saying is that I think he is better than Penn…CURRENTLY.
I’m not sure but I think most of the Gracies at that time were pretty small guys. And if you wanted to pick the smallest one he might go about 145lbs.
You have missed my point in trying to win an argument-You do that a lot!
My point: We will never know how good Rickson really was as he never fought the best of his day. I am not trying to say how “good” or “bad” he was, as you imply. However, no one can determine how GOOD he was if he did not take on the best. Get it yet?
I could be 200-0. All I have to do is take on my son’s elementary school one by one (and trust me that’s the only way I would ever be 200-0).
200-0 is darned impressive until you look at who I fought to obtain it.
Finally, I think we are both respectful of the Gracies. I am just trying to point out that Rickson’s record is hyped. If you look into it you will agree, you are a bright guy do a google search and see who he fought.
Wahaha thanks for the laugh.
Takada was (and still might be) a fake wrestler in Japan…
Also, lately I have been seeing advertisements for King of the Cage. What is this about? Is it another fighting organization similiar to UFC?
^KOTC is very good if you cant afford UFC ppvs check out KOTC they are very entertaining. And i believe Vito Belfort will be fighting on their next event.
[quote]samsmarts wrote:
^KOTC is very good if you cant afford UFC ppvs check out KOTC they are very entertaining. And i believe Vito Belfort will be fighting on their next event.[/quote]
nope he’s fighting in the next cage rage. cage rage…13 i think it is???
[quote]CS wrote:
samsmarts wrote:
^KOTC is very good if you cant afford UFC ppvs check out KOTC they are very entertaining. And i believe Vito Belfort will be fighting on their next event.
nope he’s fighting in the next cage rage. cage rage…13 i think it is???[/quote]
Yes i stand corrected he will be in Cage Rage 14 against Antony Rea.I am looking foward to Vitor fighting again.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
And all I’m saying is that I think he is better than Penn…CURRENTLY.
[/quote]
And you’re wrong!
It’s all conjecture at this point.
I didn’t miss your point unless you stated your position unclearly. Part of your post stated that Rickson had nothing to back up his skills. If you have the approval from the a family of fighters like the Gracies that recognize you as the best out of their family, that is good enough for me. His brother, Relson, makes fun of his record too, but he concedes that he was a great fighter. I do dislike the way you trivialize his record by comparing the fighters he fought to elementary school students. In that many fights against men, he at least ran the risk of getting caught with a lucky shot or two, but never did. While he was doing all of this there wasn’t much of an organization for MMA as there is today, so I won’t hate him for taking on less than stellar talent.