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41

Although I think that he’s going to have some trouble with Lesnar’s size and strength, I think you could also say that Velasquez has the skill sets needed to compete with Brock. He’s got quick, powerful hands (just ask Nog), good wrestling, and great conditioning. IMO he’s too small for guys like Lesnar and Carwin though, and would probably be better off if there was a cruiserweight division. But, he’s at least another guy who matches up well from a stylistic standpoint.

And of course, there’s Mir, who has already beaten Brock. If he beats Carwin convincingly (which I don’t think he will, but if), and comes in with improved takedown defense and a better game plan, then I think he’s got a legitimate shot at beating Lesnar again.

42

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]drewh wrote:
Carwin is the only serious threat? Did you watch Dos Santos last night, who in theat division is as fast as him? And if Mir beats Carwin it means nothing about Lesnar every matchup is different.[/quote]

Dos Santo vs Lesnar? LOL, come on stop joking. Dos Santos won’t get past Mir, Velasquez or Carwin.

Yes, every match-up is different I agree with you on that one at least. But if you actually break it down Carwin has many of the same skills, including size and power, that Lesnar has and in addition he actually has an incredible striking game, no one has survived past two minutes with him. If you think Dos Santos could beat him you’re mistaken.

You’ll have to give up on Dos Santos ever being champion, that will never happen. You think he’s really good because he beat Gonzaga? Gonzaga who got his butt kicked against virtual LH Randy Couture in about 1:30? And destroyed by Shane Carwin ina bout 1:00. Come on you’re smarter than that. Stop buying into the UFC Dos Santos hype, yea he’s big and can punch but in the UFC HW division there are far better than him.

[/quote]

All you are saying is crap. [quote]

I know I hate when I say crap. From this point on I will try never to say crap again.

Dos Santos is a purple belt in BJJ. I never said he didn’t have a ground game. Did you see anywhere where I said that? Hey I just thought of something, that might be why you thought that i said “crap”. Is it?

You think so?

Here’s what I think, Crocrop is over the hill and lost his desire. Now I only say that because he himself said that he’s not sure he has the desire anymore. And he’s no spring chicken age wise or fight wise. He’s taken lots of abuse through the years. And judging by how he’s lost every one of his UFC fights except for the can they just matched him up with he’s not a tough cookie anymore. He’s more like a worn out cookie, or hmm how about a crumbled cookie? If we stick with the cookie anaologies we could also call him an over baked cookie. Okay enough.

Speaking of having too many fights Gilbert Yvel has had over 50 fights and he’s only in his mid 30’s. CouBut yea Dos Santos beat him, that was good, I suppose.

[quote]Although i have to admit that is just plain stupid about Werdum and Napao, where are those BJJ guys going, they do some standup and they think they are Super Strikers all of sudden.
[/quote]

Yea, pure BJJ guys have really gotta learn some serious stand-up or they end up the way Demian Maia did vs Nate Marquardt. Don’t get me wrong Maia is a tough guy with a great record of 12-1 and he’s beaten some reasonable strikers. But he will never be champion as his hands are just not up to par with others in that division. And that brings us back to why Dos Santos will never be champion (darn I said it again and that really ticks some people off huh?) Dos Santos is a purple belt in BJJ and while he is a reasonable striker he doesn’t have it together enough to beat people like Velasquez, Carwin, Mir and Lesnar. And if you want to go outside the UFC Fedor. Dos Santos is just not a contender.

43

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Although I think that he’s going to have some trouble with Lesnar’s size and strength, I think you could also say that Velasquez has the skill sets needed to compete with Brock. He’s got quick, powerful hands (just ask Nog), good wrestling, and great conditioning. IMO he’s too small for guys like Lesnar and Carwin though, and would probably be better off if there was a cruiserweight division. But, he’s at least another guy who matches up well from a stylistic standpoint.[/quote]

Good analysis.

Bad analysis.

44

First of all, I meant to say “Somebody besides Lesnar or Carwin.” Typing fail. I think Cain has a great shot as he has the wrestling to at least hang with Lesnar and maybe defend a takedown or two and his striking looks vastly improved. Mir has already beat Lesnar and, even though I think Lesnar will and should be a heavy favorite to win a rubber match, has a realistic shot to do it again.

In regards to Dos Santos vs Carwin, Shane is obviously the better athlete and has great knockout power, but dos Santos clearly has superior striking. Even against a guy like Gonzaga, Carwin’s striking defense was exploited and he was hurt before pulling the fight out via knockout. dos Santos has a strong kickboxing base and has shown a wide array of striking skills, not just a big right hand.

Also, dos Santos has already demolished a top-level grappler. Fabricio Werdum has a different style, but he is a far more accomplished grappler than Carwin. Being a D2 wrestling champ is nice, but Werdum is a high-level jujitsu and judo player who has won the ADCC’s three times while beating the likes of Van Arsdale and Linland. Carwin appears to have a lot more knockout power than Werdum, but I think it is foolish to assume that Carwin will plant dos Santos on his back with ease.

The standup favors dos Santos, although Carwin certainly has to ability to win via KO. dos Santos has shown bits and pieces of a solid clinch game, while Carwin’s abilities there are unknown. The takedown game would appear to favor Carwin, but we haven’t really seen him use his wrestling yet and nobody has been able to take dos Santos down yet. Who knows what will happen on the ground? Carwin is an accomplished wrestler, but his only official grappling experience is collegiate wrestling. dos Santos is a brown belt under two of the best in the world in Maia and Nogueria, but that doesn’t mean much until he shows it. I would assume Carwin would use his wrestling and superior size/athletic ability to hold dos Santos down and deliver some ground and pound, but we have not yet seen his submission defense or top game tested.

I think if we see Carwin vs. dos Santos, it would be foolish see Carwin try to stand and trade. A smart plan would see Carwin move around, threaten a big right hand or two and try to take dos Santos down. I think there’s a very real possibility that he would be able to punish and wear down dos Santos and win a decision or tire him (I’m sure Carwin’s conditioning is great, valid point about the conditioning of wrestlers) out to set up a late-round knockout.

I do think Carwin has a very real possibility of winning, in order for him to be the favorite over dos Santos, we have to assume he has a superior ground game as the standup is, at best, a 50/50 proposition. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume Carwin would win on the ground, but it is only assumption as we just haven’t seen it yet, from either man.

And I don’t know how anybody can look at the track record of dos Santos at just 25 years old and not think that he will be in the mix for a title for the next 5 years.

45

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Bad analysis.
[/quote]

This is what baffles me. I know you are a big wrestling guy and I do agree that, if you had to pick just one, wrestling is the most important art to master in MMA.

But Mir has already beaten Brock! This is not a hypothetical, it has literally already happened. Yes, I am sure Lesnar’s submission defense is improved. But I am also sure that Mir is not going to be doing any retarded flying knees while he’s already up against the cage.

46

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Unlike Dos Santos who moves like Frankenstein, okay maybe that was overly harsh, but Carwin moves like a middleweight and hits like a super HW.
[/quote]

I think you’re getting caught up in some hype yourself. I like Carwin…he hits hard and can wrestle,but let’s not inflate some of his qualities.

Carwin moves about as well as Gonzaga. In fact,if he moved like a middleweight…how can you explain him getting caught stiff and flat-footed against Gonzaga?? Dos Santos is more technical,has quicker hands,and clearly has better footwork than Carwin. Who hit’s harder could be argued,but both have KO power.

Now as for their well-roundedness…yeah,Carwin has the edge because of his wrestling. But rattled or not,Gonzaga took him down…just didn’t keep him there long. We have yet to see Dos Santos’ wrestling/takedown defense ability. It would be silly to gauge those abilities when we haven’t seen it displayed yet EDIT…we did see a glimpse in Gonzaga fight.

Nevertheless,I still believe Dos Santos is a better pure striker(there’s more to striking than just the actual striking) than Carwin. Until proven otherwise,I will stick to that.

47

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Bad analysis.
[/quote]

This is what baffles me. I know you are a big wrestling guy and I do agree that, if you had to pick just one, wrestling is the most important art to master in MMA.

But Mir has already beaten Brock! This is not a hypothetical, it has literally already happened. Yes, I am sure Lesnar’s submission defense is improved. But I am also sure that Mir is not going to be doing any retarded flying knees while he’s already up against the cage.[/quote]
Tell BJ Penn, Machida, Anderson, Fedor and Jose Aldo wrestling is the most important.

48

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Although I think that he’s going to have some trouble with Lesnar’s size and strength, I think you could also say that Velasquez has the skill sets needed to compete with Brock. He’s got quick, powerful hands (just ask Nog), good wrestling, and great conditioning. IMO he’s too small for guys like Lesnar and Carwin though, and would probably be better off if there was a cruiserweight division. But, he’s at least another guy who matches up well from a stylistic standpoint.

And of course, there’s Mir, who has already beaten Brock. If he beats Carwin convincingly (which I don’t think he will, but if), and comes in with improved takedown defense and a better game plan, then I think he’s got a legitimate shot at beating Lesnar again.[/quote]
Velasquez wrestled HW so he’s used to being smaller he can hang with the bigger dudes.

49

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

I think Cain has a great shot as he has the wrestling to at least hang with Lesnar and maybe defend a takedown or two and his striking looks vastly improved. [/quote]

He is very good, but I don’t think his wrestling pedigree is even close to Lesnars. In addition to that he’s giving away a lot of size and while size isn’t everything when all else is equal size matters. And in this case all else isn’t even equal.

[quote]
Mir has already beat Lesnar and, even though I think Lesnar will and should be a heavy favorite to win a rubber match, has a realistic shot to do it again. [/quote]

Mir had his day with Lesnar that was BEFORE Lesnar figured out how to stay tight and use his wrestling ability (via Hughes, Couture and many others) to nullify the BJJ ground game. That doesn’t mean that Mir couldn’t catch Lesnar but it’s highly doubtful.

Superior striking? He’s too slow have you looked closely at that “superior striking”? Even Gonzaga as clueless as he was the other night dodged many of Dos Santos punches and only got into trouble because he tried to play kick-boxer, how foolish was that? But no Dos Santos will not have near the speed he needs to avoid being destroyed by a superior Carwin. And if for some reason Carwin decides he wants to fight on the ground, down goes Dos Santos.

I agree Carwin has no real defense when striking. He goes after people with a vengeance and that has worked so far. A superior striker (not Dos Santos) may take advantage of that. But what happened after he took that punch from Gonzaga? Did he quit? Did he back-up? No he attacked and put Gonzaga down. That was a great test for not only Carwins ability to take a punch but his heart as well.

He also has shown that he is slow and plodding. Even the over the hill Cro Crop was able to move away from many of Dos Santos punches.

[quote]Also, dos Santos has already demolished a top-level grappler.
Fabricio Werdum has a different style, but he is a far more accomplished grappler than Carwin. Being a D2 wrestling champ is nice, but Werdum is a high-level jujitsu and judo player who has won the ADCC’s three times while beating the likes of Van Arsdale and Linland. Carwin appears to have a lot more knockout power than Werdum, but I think it is foolish to assume that Carwin will plant dos Santos on his back with ease.[/quote]

Don’t confuse “grappler” with an actual American Collegiate champion wrestler. Each has their strengths, but with a really good wrestler the fight goes where he wants it to. And in Carwins case he has the lethal hands to go along with it.

Also, never said that Carwin would plant anyone on their back with ease. But, he will beat Dos Santos quite convincingly.

[quote]
The takedown game would appear to favor Carwin, but we haven’t really seen him use his wrestling yet and nobody has been able to take dos Santos down yet.[/quote]

Gonzaga took him down the other night, with ease. He just didn’t keep him down Carwin could easily take dos santos down and I bet he’d keep him there.

Right you are and that’s where it would end if not before. (By the way Dos Santos is a purple belt, not a brown belt as you suggested earlier-unless he’s had a very recent promotion)

[quote]
I do think Carwin has a very real possibility of winning, in order for him to be the favorite over dos Santos, we have to assume he has a superior ground game as the standup is, at best, a 50/50 proposition. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume Carwin would win on the ground, but it is only assumption as we just haven’t seen it yet, from either man.[/quote]

I’m so sure that Carwin would defeat him that I’d lay about 6-1 odds if I were a betting man. I’m either crazy on this point, or I see something that you don’t, one or the other.

Maybe I was overly harsh saying that Dos Santos will never be champion. Maybe if he vastly improves his ground game and trains with the Olympic wrestling team as GSP did, and maybe if he improves his striking ability and maybe if he improves his hand speed and maybe if…naw he’s never going to be champion I’ll stick with my prediction. You can always point and laugh at me if he does become champion and I will have to eat crow. But, I just don’t think that day will ever come.

50

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Bad analysis.

This is what baffles me. I know you are a big wrestling guy and I do agree that, if you had to pick just one, wrestling is the most important art to master in MMA.[/quote]

Right you are.

But Mir has already beaten Brock! This is not a hypothetical, it has literally already happened.[/quote]

Yes, and Hughes has already beaten GSP this is not hypothetical it has already happened. Think he could do it again? And I don’t think Mir has a really good shot at Lesnar again.

You’re a smart guy I know you know that Mir had already lost that fight at that point. What Mir has to do is be able to defend Lesnar’s takedown and HE CAN’T DO IT. Once to the ground Mir (while taking some vicious g&p) has to find a way to submit Lesnar. I think we already saw that movie didn’t we?

51

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Unlike Dos Santos who moves like Frankenstein, okay maybe that was overly harsh, but Carwin moves like a middleweight and hits like a super HW.

I think you’re getting caught up in some hype yourself. I like Carwin…he hits hard and can wrestle,but let’s not inflate some of his qualities.

Carwin moves about as well as Gonzaga. In fact,if he moved like a middleweight…how can you explain him getting caught stiff and flat-footed against Gonzaga?[/quote]

That was a testimony to his lack of defense relative to striking. I never said the guy is perfect he has a long way to go but he’d own Dos Santos that I know.

I agree

I’m laughing at that statement. But he does have quicker hands than say “The Mummy”. Ever see that movie?

Debatable.

Carwin hits harder. Better yet ask Gonzaga who took shots from both of them. Carwin hit Gonzaga with a very short right and BANG lights out.

You say that matter of factly. Tell me how many times does a wrestler lose on the ground? Yes, it happens but how many times? And when it does happen how does it happen? Think about that one.

Well, all we have to go by is that he’s a purple belt. And well, I don’t think that will cut it when it comes to matching him against a Lesnar, Carwin or Velesquez.

[quote]Nevertheless,I still believe Dos Santos is a better pure striker(there’s more to striking than just the actual striking) than Carwin. Until proven otherwise,I will stick to that.
[/quote]

If this were a boxing match I think you would may be correct. But in mma speed and striking power rein supreme. I think that’s because at any time the fight can change via a takedown. We saw Carwins weakness vs Gonzaga he was punched rattled and he still moved forward and won by KO in about a minute.

52

So much bias in your posts, do you really believe what you write? Dos Santos doesn’t have fast hands, you think Carwin has better footwork? Dos Santos is the best striker in that division bar none how can you believe otherwise he’s beaten quality strikers by out striking them, no other HW in the UFC has done this.

53

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You say that matter of factly. Tell me how many times does a wrestler lose on the ground? Yes, it happens but how many times? And when it does happen how does it happen? Think about that one.
[/quote]

Chael Sonnen has been submitted 7 times. Mark Coleman has been submitted 4 times. Randelman has been submitted 6 times. Couture has been submitted 3 times. Dan Henderson has been submitted 3 times. Matt Hughes has been submitted 4 times. Dan Severn has been submitted 8 times. Mike Van Arsdale has been submitted 4 times. Koscheck, Babalu, Volkmann and Lesnar have been submitted.

All of these guys can lay claim to superior wrestling credentials to Carwin and all have been finished on the ground. They have been finished by other wrestlers, by jujitsu specialists, by strikers who rocked them and then capitalized, or by freestyle fighters who simply saw an opportunity and capitalized. Additionally, one thread with all of those fighters is that there is no trend to when these losses occurred. It isn’t a case where they lost by submission early and then learned the nebulous concept of “submission defense” and never had to worry about it again.

There is nothing magical about being “a wrestler” that makes one invulnerable on the ground. I think the skills of wrestling (at the very least, takedown defense) are the most important in MMA, but they are not exclusive those with a background in collegiate wrestling. GSP’s takedowns and BJ Penn’s takedown defenses are both among the best in MMA and neither has much of a formal wretling background.

I’m sure Carwin has good wrestling skills. But, his credentials are less impressive than many fighters who haven’t taken home a belt and they also haven’t been seen in the octagon yet. It’s not sure thing that his grappling is better than dos Santos, who I believe was recently promoted to brown belt by two of the top grapplers in the world.

54

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Don’t confuse “grappler” with an actual American Collegiate champion wrestler. [/quote]

Good point. Gonzaga and Werdum are far more accomplished grapplers than Carwin.

Carwin has was one of the best of a small age-range of American college athletes at one specific discipline of grappling which does not involve submissions. Gonzaga and Werdum have both competed and won at the highest levels of submission grappling competitions (which encompass a wider skillset than collegiate wrestling) that are open and competed in by athletes of all ages and from around the world.

And dos Santos handled both with ease.

55

[quote]drewh wrote:
So much bias in your posts,[/quote]

That’s because I’m bias. I’m not a commentator sitting here giving everyone credit when I don’t think they deserve it. I believe that there are solid reasons why people become champion, some of them I have articulated for you. Lesnar is champion for a reason it wasn’t an accident. You can like him or hate him but ask yourself why he’s champion.

This man can take people to the ground and beat them senseless. That means that someone either has to be able to defend that takedown or be able to beat him on the ground with better wrestling or submit him while he’s ground and pounding them. Or perhaps knock him out before he shoots or in the process.

Who can do that? I know who can’t do that and his name is Dos Santos.

Am I biased? Yes, based on the facts that have been presented.

I do and so should you. But I don’t mind that you don’t because that makes for interesting debate and that’s why I’m here.

You must have my many posts on the topic confused with someone else’s I never said that.

Take a breath man, it happens to be my opinion. You think he’s good I think he’s slow, not enough ground experience and generally over rated and over hyped by the UFC machine.

The good part is we all get to see who is right and who is wrong. Fortunately it doesn’t matter what happens does it? It’s all good debate and a sharing of opinions. Sometimes I articulate my opinions forcefully and that puts some people off.

Sometimes I’m right, sometimes I’m wrong Eh.

56

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You say that matter of factly. Tell me how many times does a wrestler lose on the ground? Yes, it happens but how many times? And when it does happen how does it happen? Think about that one.
[/quote]

Chael Sonnen has been submitted 7 times. Mark Coleman has been submitted 4 times. Randelman has been submitted 6 times. Couture has been submitted 3 times. Dan Henderson has been submitted 3 times. Matt Hughes has been submitted 4 times. Dan Severn has been submitted 8 times. Mike Van Arsdale has been submitted 4 times. Koscheck, Babalu, Volkmann and Lesnar have been submitted.[/quote]

Good for you, you’ve come up with 36 submissions. Now how many times have wrestlers taken people to the ground in mma fights over the past many years? THOUSANDS.

Sure anyone can be submitted at any time we all know that. But my point is valid wrestlers are tough to beat on the ground. Every guy you mentioned above has a winning record and either was, is or could be a champion.

Not sure about that. Matt Hughes was a top 10 Division One wrestler, number 8 I think. Carwin Division Two champion probably pretty close skill wise. Randleman? Not sure of his wrestling pedigree and I’m not looking it up. But again what’s the point your driving at? That Carwin can be submitted? Who said he couldn’t? I just don’t think it will happen at the hands of a slow plodding Dos Santos who is open for a takedown every time he moves toward his opponent. Gonzaga even took him down, he let him up because he didn’t know how to control him once he had him down. But he did take him down with ease. What do you think a Shane Carwin, or a Brock Lesnar would do to him?

[quote]
I’m sure Carwin has good wrestling skills. But, his credentials are less impressive than many fighters who haven’t taken home a belt and they also haven’t been seen in the octagon yet. It’s not sure thing that his grappling is better than dos Santos, who I believe was recently promoted to brown belt by two of the top grapplers in the world.[/quote]

I heard that claim that he’s a brown belt now and he might be, last I new he was a purple belt. Either way, I think he’d get taken down and controlled by Carwin, if Carwin didn’t first knock him out, which is the most likely outcome.

57

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Don’t confuse “grappler” with an actual American Collegiate champion wrestler.

Good point. Gonzaga and Werdum are far more accomplished grapplers than Carwin.[/quote]

Darn you missed my point, I’ll try to be more clear this time around. I think College wrestlers are better at taking people down and controlling them. I don’t have to give you the many examples do I? No.

[quote]Carwin has was one of the best of a small age-range of American college athletes at one specific discipline of grappling which does not involve submissions. Gonzaga and Werdum have both competed and won at the highest levels of submission grappling competitions (which encompass a wider skillset than collegiate wrestling) that are open and competed in by athletes of all ages and from around the world.

And dos Santos handled both with ease.[/quote]

Did you forget that Carwin knocked out Gonzaga in about 1:00? What happend to Gonzaga’s wider skill set? He’s good don’t get me wrong, but when you have both wrestling and heavy hands, well ask Gonzaga.

You better tell Dan Henderson, Randy Couture, Matt Lindland, Matt Hughes, Brock Lesnar, Sean Sherk and the many, many other former college wrestlers that their skill set isn’t quite wide enough to compete with, these bad ass submission guys.

Stop it, please.

58

No doubt, but nobody is debating whether Carwin has the potential to be a champion. I think most people acknowledge that. I suppose it’s a matter of debating the odds. You seem to think that the odds of Carwin beating dos Santos are 6:1, I propose it’s closer to an even-money bet. The point of my brief Google search of the prominent wrestlers in MMA is just to show that even the best wrestlers do get beat on the ground. Obviously you know that, but I propose it happens a bit more than you are willing to admit.

My point was not that l33t submission guys will always pwn wrestlers. My point is that a submission grappling tournament like the ADCC is a much better test of MMA-applicable grappling than collegiate wrestling is. Even then, it’s not nearly as good as seeing what a guy can do grappling-wise in the octagon. Henderson, Couture, Lindland, Hughes and Lesnar, have proven a much wider skill-set than what Carwin has shown so far, which amounts to:

a.) Drop right hand bombs on mostly overmatched opponents
b.) Show the ability to come back after being hurt by the one legit opponent he’s faced.

That counts for something, but it doesn’t automatically mean you can lump him in with the champion wrestlers who have been successful in transitioning their ground game to MMA. He might have it, but he hasn’t shown it yet. On the other hand, take a guy like Jacob Volkman who was a 3-time D1 All-American and who just got submitted by Martin Kampmann who is known more for his Muay Thai.

I think Henderson is the best-case scenario for Carwin. An athletic, dominant wrestler with a monster right hand. However, let’s not forget that Henderson was a much higher-caliber wrestler than Carwin and he was facing higher-level competition much earlier in his career than Carwin. By the time Henderson was 35, he had already beaten the likes of Yvel, Big Nog, Babalu, Renzo, Murilo Rua, Gono, etc.

It’s not out of the question, but I’m waiting to see what Carwin does against Mir before I anoint him.

59

I am pretty sure Carwin has a tough match up this weekend. By Sunday everyone will have new points to argue with on one side or the other.

60

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
But my point is valid wrestlers are tough to beat on the ground. Every guy you mentioned above has a winning record and either was, is or could be a champion.

No doubt, but nobody is debating whether Carwin has the potential to be a champion. I think most people acknowledge that. I suppose it’s a matter of debating the odds. You seem to think that the odds of Carwin beating dos Santos are 6:1, I propose it’s closer to an even-money bet. [/quote]

I fully understandy your point of view as I’ve said that’s what makes good debate, it also allows me to make money from you if I was a betting man.

It actually happens less than either of us realize. Think about how many times the guys you named have been tapped out. What did we say? 36 times? How many times have just those guys fought? Matt Hughes alone fought 50 times. So how many fights did they all fight combined? 200 or more? I think that’s a very good ratio don’t you? Now you should check how many BJJ guys that those wrestlers beat. I bet their win loss ratio is stellar here.

I see your point, but in reality I have to disagree with you. A really good wrestler might just execute an exceptional takedown (something collegiate wrestlers are best at) and then administer the old ground and pound. How many times have wrestlers won like that? Many. Rand Couture for one has beaten his opponents mainly with this style instead of submission. So, we don’t need ADCC to see who the best mma grapplers are, we already know don’t we?

With the exception of Lesnar Carwin doesn’t have as many fights as any of them. Also, I don’t think Lesnar has shown a wide skill set do you? He has simply taken his opponents down and beaten them senseless. It’s basic, but it works.

[quote]
That counts for something, but it doesn’t automatically mean you can lump him in with the champion wrestlers who have been successful in transitioning their ground game to MMA. He might have it, but he hasn’t shown it yet.[/quote]

I didn’t lump him in, you did when you posted your list of wrestlers who have been submitted. All I’m saying is that wrestling skill wise Carwin is certainly right up there with a few of them and shows even more potential via striking than any of them during the earl stages of their careers.

[quote]
I think Henderson is the best-case scenario for Carwin. An athletic, dominant wrestler with a monster right hand. However, let’s not forget that Henderson was a much higher-caliber wrestler than Carwin and he was facing higher-level competition much earlier in his career than Carwin. By the time Henderson was 35, he had already beaten the likes of Yvel, Big Nog, Babalu, Renzo, Murilo Rua, Gono, etc.[/quote]

Henderson was and still is truly incredible. The beat down he administered to Bisping was a thing of beauty. But yea there are similarities, but keep in mind that Henderson was a Greco Roman wrestler and Carwin freestyle.

I think that’s a wise decision. I predict he’ll beat Mir, but mma is sometimes unpredictable especially with a top notch guy like Frank Mir, he’s tough as nails and very tricky on the ground.

By the way, I don’t think for a second that Carwin could fight Lesnar tomorrow and beat him. In fact I think that Lesnar would win that fight. My earlier point is that Carwin is (eventually) the best hope of dethroning Lesnar.