if Mir beats Carwin convincingly…what does that say (if anything) about the dominance of Lesnar in the heavies?
Mir vs Carwin: I think Mir is going to have a real problem with Carwin. With Carwin you have almost as much wrestling ability as Lesnar, as much or more speed than Lesnar and striking that far, far exceeds Brock Lesnars, and we know what Lesnar did to Mir.
Here’s the problem for Mir, if Carwin wants to stand and strike then Mir must stand and strike as he is obviously incapable of taking Carwin down. Should Mir be a better striker that night Carwin takes the fight to the ground. And unfortunately for Frank Mir Carwin actually has about twice as many fights under his belt than Lesnar did when Lesnar destroyed Mir in their last fight.
Carwin will beat Mir and much to the surprise of most he’ll do it quickly!
I believe that Carwin is the only serious threat to Brock Lesnar.
GSP vs Hardy: I’m not going to dignify that match with an analysis. The only reason Hardy has this shot is the UFC’s lust for English PPV dollars. He is not even close to being in GSP’s class and will easily be outclassed by GSP.
Carwin is the only serious threat? Did you watch Dos Santos last night, who in theat division is as fast as him? And if Mir beats Carwin it means nothing about Lesnar every matchup is different.
[quote]drewh wrote:
Carwin is the only serious threat? Did you watch Dos Santos last night, who in theat division is as fast as him? And if Mir beats Carwin it means nothing about Lesnar every matchup is different.[/quote]
Dos Santo vs Lesnar? LOL, come on stop joking. Dos Santos won’t get past Mir, Velasquez or Carwin.
Yes, every match-up is different I agree with you on that one at least. But if you actually break it down Carwin has many of the same skills, including size and power, that Lesnar has and in addition he actually has an incredible striking game, no one has survived past two minutes with him. If you think Dos Santos could beat him you’re mistaken.
You’ll have to give up on Dos Santos ever being champion, that will never happen. You think he’s really good because he beat Gonzaga? Gonzaga who got his butt kicked against virtual LH Randy Couture in about 1:30? And destroyed by Shane Carwin ina bout 1:00. Come on you’re smarter than that. Stop buying into the UFC Dos Santos hype, yea he’s big and can punch but in the UFC HW division there are far better than him.
we’ll see
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]drewh wrote:
Carwin is the only serious threat? Did you watch Dos Santos last night, who in theat division is as fast as him? And if Mir beats Carwin it means nothing about Lesnar every matchup is different.[/quote]
Dos Santo vs Lesnar? LOL, come on stop joking. Dos Santos won’t get past Mir, Velasquez or Carwin.
Yes, every match-up is different I agree with you on that one at least. But if you actually break it down Carwin has many of the same skills, including size and power, that Lesnar has and in addition he actually has an incredible striking game, no one has survived past two minutes with him. If you think Dos Santos could beat him you’re mistaken.
You’ll have to give up on Dos Santos ever being champion, that will never happen. You think he’s really good because he beat Gonzaga? Gonzaga who got his butt kicked against virtual LH Randy Couture in about 1:30? And destroyed by Shane Carwin ina bout 1:00. Come on you’re smarter than that. Stop buying into the UFC Dos Santos hype, yea he’s big and can punch but in the UFC HW division there are far better than him.
[/quote]
To act as if Dos Santos is not a top contender is a joke in itself. There is no clear line between any of the top HW that makes them a step above each other at this point.
I will say that “Cigano” is a lot more technical and lighter on his feet than Gonzaga(as proven last night). His stand-up is eons ahead of Brock-ness Monster himself…and I wouldn’t doubt that he’s no slouch on the ground either.
If anything will be an issue for him…it would be size he gives up to Mir,Carwin,Lesnar. But you don’t have to worry about that if you’re knocking the snot out of them.
Basically,I’ve seen enough of Dos Santos to include him as a top contender than to exclude him.
Unrelated, but I’m still holding onto the hope that Cro Cop gets his mindset back on track and later this year we’ll see him launch Rothwell’s head into the crowd via left leg headkick.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]drewh wrote:
Carwin is the only serious threat? Did you watch Dos Santos last night, who in theat division is as fast as him? And if Mir beats Carwin it means nothing about Lesnar every matchup is different.[/quote]
Dos Santo vs Lesnar? LOL, come on stop joking. Dos Santos won’t get past Mir, Velasquez or Carwin.
Yes, every match-up is different I agree with you on that one at least. But if you actually break it down Carwin has many of the same skills, including size and power, that Lesnar has and in addition he actually has an incredible striking game, no one has survived past two minutes with him. If you think Dos Santos could beat him you’re mistaken.
You’ll have to give up on Dos Santos ever being champion, that will never happen. You think he’s really good because he beat Gonzaga? Gonzaga who got his butt kicked against virtual LH Randy Couture in about 1:30? And destroyed by Shane Carwin ina bout 1:00. Come on you’re smarter than that. Stop buying into the UFC Dos Santos hype, yea he’s big and can punch but in the UFC HW division there are far better than him.
To act as if Dos Santos is not a top contender is a joke in itself. [/quote]
That depends on where you draw the line when you refer to the “top”. Is he in the top 10? Maybe, sure could be. If he is does that mean he’s in the same league with the top 4 or 5 guys in the HW division? Not on your life.
Dos Santos brings size, power and fair to good striking. That makes him a tough guy, but not nearly good enough to be a true contender. I’m sure you’re aware that most of the top contenders at every weight division have both very good standing and ground skills.
Take a quick look at each division; Faber, Penn, GSP, Silva, Machida, Tthe only exception to that rule would be Brock Lesnar and that’s why I think he’s vulnerable to someone like Shane Carwin who can virtually match him on size, power and on the ground and also carries lethal hands. All the other champions have both ground and standing skills at a fairly high level. Dos Santos is just another good fighter who will be fodder for the real contenders.
[quote]
Basically,I’ve seen enough of Dos Santos to include him as a top contender than to exclude him. [/quote]
Well, I don’t think you could be more wrong and that’s what makes great sports debates my friend.
Lesnar is tom for beating Mir and Couture? And it’s funny how you don’t include Fedor.
Cigano has fair to good striking lmao, he’s knocked out Yvel, Gonzaga, Struve, Werdum, and Cro Cop, that’s pretty damn good striking. All but Cro Cop were finished in the first round too.
I must say Dos Santos looked good. But I don’t know if Gonzaga the fighter he once was. I think if we where in a BJJ heavyweight tourney he would hold his own but I don’t think he can hang with the top 5 in the HW devision. I think Dos Santos has a great chance against Brock, Mir, Carwin, Cain V. I mean we haven’t really seen him be rocked and come back tho the way Carwin did against Gonzaga.
This also shows tho that Carwin had more trouble with Gonzaga than Dos Santos. The fight game is a tough one to figure out but I think last night we saw that Dos Santos is a top tier HW. We also see that Brandon Vera really isnt the fighter he was when he was kneeing and kicking people into oblivion as a hw.
Also I think Kongo is pretty much done in the ufc even tho he got the win. He had his opponent grounded the first two rounds he should have finished that fight much earlier. Kongo Could be great but I just can’t see him ever beating the top guy’s…his wresling is weak and he has 0 jits. anyways thats my little rant on last night’s fights. I am looking forward to this weekend’s bouts much more! Should be a good event.
[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Unrelated, but I’m still holding onto the hope that Cro Cop gets his mindset back on track and later this year we’ll see him launch Rothwell’s head into the crowd via left leg headkick.[/quote]
He’s fighting Patt Barry next.
[quote]drewh wrote:
Lesnar is tom for beating Mir and Couture? [/quote]
I don’t think he’s tom I still think he’s Brock.
I was only talking about the UFC, but naturally if look at all HW Fedor is certainly one of the best.
I meant to type top.
[quote]drewh wrote:
I meant to type top.[/quote]
Okay, sorry about that I really had no idea what you were trying to say so I thought I’d be a wise guy. Did you get a chukle out of that? No probably not.
Anyway, Lesnar has proven himself in and outside the Octagon. He’s a very highly skilled NCAA Division One champion Wrestler. He’s also proven that he could easily destroy a highly skilled BJJ guy like Frank Mir. Lesnar brings more to the table in skill than Dos Santos ever thought of bringing. What’s Dos Santos a purple belt? So we have a guy who is a fair striker with a purple belt in BJJ and he’s going to rule the HW division of the UFC? Just admit that you bought into the hype a little, hey it’s a common error.
Remember when they were pushing Kongo? Joe Rogan (in his obnoxious over the top ring side voice): “This guy Kongo has got incredible hands and his conditioning is second to none, bla, bla, bla”. Then suddenly Velasquez and Mir push him around like he’s a little punk. Yes he beat a can the other night. Did you see that cans guard? No? Right, he didn’t even have one.
This is what Dana and company do they hype these guys so that it builds peoples interest then you want to pay to see him beat that nasty Brock Lesnar, or whomever. It’s a business and they do it quite well. Dos Santos will never, ever, ever be champion of the UFC not now not ever. Wow, that sounds final doesn’t it? Okay, maybe I’m wrong, but I just don’t think so.
I think this Lesnar discussion is perfect evidence for how size and strength can help in MMA.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]drewh wrote:
I meant to type top.[/quote]
Okay, sorry about that I really had no idea what you were trying to say so I thought I’d be a wise guy. Did you get a chukle out of that? No probably not.
Anyway, Lesnar has proven himself in and outside the Octagon. He’s a very highly skilled NCAA Division One champion Wrestler. He’s also proven that he could easily destroy a highly skilled BJJ guy like Frank Mir. Lesnar brings more to the table in skill than Dos Santos ever thought of bringing. What’s Dos Santos a purple belt? So we have a guy who is a fair striker with a purple belt in BJJ and he’s going to rule the HW division of the UFC? Just admit that you bought into the hype a little, hey it’s a common error.
Remember when they were pushing Kongo? Joe Rogan (in his obnoxious over the top ring side voice): “This guy Kongo has got incredible hands and his conditioning is second to none, bla, bla, bla”. Then suddenly Velasquez and Mir push him around like he’s a little punk. Yes he beat a can the other night. Did you see that cans guard? No? Right, he didn’t even have one.
This is what Dana and company do they hype these guys so that it builds peoples interest then you want to pay to see him beat that nasty Brock Lesnar, or whomever. It’s a business and they do it quite well. Dos Santos will never, ever, ever be champion of the UFC not now not ever. Wow, that sounds final doesn’t it? Okay, maybe I’m wrong, but I just don’t think so.[/quote]
Who had Kongo beat, he nuttshotted his way to beating Cro Cop,lost to Heath Herring, and beat Hardonk, you’re the only person who ever thought Kongo was a contender. The difference is that cigano has finished good competition. I’d even say his resume is longer and better than Lesnars so far; now I’m not saying he’d beat Lesnar but saying he isn’t a top HW is just plain silly.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Dos Santos will never, ever, ever be champion of the UFC not now not ever. Wow, that sounds final doesn’t it? Okay, maybe I’m wrong, but I just don’t think so.[/quote]
That’s a bold claim considering his age.
Dos Santos is 10 years younger and has 5 wins in the UFC, all by stoppage and all but one in the first round. Carwin has 3 wins in the UFC, two of which were against nobodies. They both knocked Gonzaga out, but Gonzaga had Carwin in serious trouble before Carwin KO’d him.
We can debate skillsets all day long, but the bottom line is that Dos Santos has wins over 4 guys with winning UFC/Pride records and Carwin has one. Dos Santos is a much more proven commodity. You could easily argue that the only reason Carwin is getting a shot so quickly is so the UFC can make some coin off his hype before he’s exposed by a truly world-class fighter. Whether that’s the case or not will be proven pretty soon. I think the fight between Carwin and Mir will be a great fight and I do think that Carwin is a beast who can beat anybody on any given day.
It’s just laughable to say something like “Carwin is the only one who can challenge Lesnar” when:
a.) Carwin has one good win in his career
b.) Lesnar has already lost to Frank Mir
I predict that before Jan 2, 2012, somebody besides Lesnar or Mir will hold the belt.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]drewh wrote:
Carwin is the only serious threat? Did you watch Dos Santos last night, who in theat division is as fast as him? And if Mir beats Carwin it means nothing about Lesnar every matchup is different.[/quote]
Dos Santo vs Lesnar? LOL, come on stop joking. Dos Santos won’t get past Mir, Velasquez or Carwin.
Yes, every match-up is different I agree with you on that one at least. But if you actually break it down Carwin has many of the same skills, including size and power, that Lesnar has and in addition he actually has an incredible striking game, no one has survived past two minutes with him. If you think Dos Santos could beat him you’re mistaken.
You’ll have to give up on Dos Santos ever being champion, that will never happen. You think he’s really good because he beat Gonzaga? Gonzaga who got his butt kicked against virtual LH Randy Couture in about 1:30? And destroyed by Shane Carwin ina bout 1:00. Come on you’re smarter than that. Stop buying into the UFC Dos Santos hype, yea he’s big and can punch but in the UFC HW division there are far better than him.
[/quote]
All you are saying is crap. We didn’t see a GLIMPSE of his ground game. The guy got straight 5 K.O. in the UFC, that must be a record or something. And he isn’t beating any chumps.
Crocop, Gilbert Yvel are tough cookies. Although i have to admit that is just plain stupid about Werdum and Napao, where are those BJJ guys going, they do some standup and they think they are Super Strikers all of sudden.
[quote]drewh wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]drewh wrote:
I meant to type top.[/quote]
Okay, sorry about that I really had no idea what you were trying to say so I thought I’d be a wise guy. Did you get a chukle out of that? No probably not.
Anyway, Lesnar has proven himself in and outside the Octagon. He’s a very highly skilled NCAA Division One champion Wrestler. He’s also proven that he could easily destroy a highly skilled BJJ guy like Frank Mir. Lesnar brings more to the table in skill than Dos Santos ever thought of bringing. What’s Dos Santos a purple belt? So we have a guy who is a fair striker with a purple belt in BJJ and he’s going to rule the HW division of the UFC? Just admit that you bought into the hype a little, hey it’s a common error.
Remember when they were pushing Kongo? Joe Rogan (in his obnoxious over the top ring side voice): “This guy Kongo has got incredible hands and his conditioning is second to none, bla, bla, bla”. Then suddenly Velasquez and Mir push him around like he’s a little punk. Yes he beat a can the other night. Did you see that cans guard? No? Right, he didn’t even have one.
This is what Dana and company do they hype these guys so that it builds peoples interest then you want to pay to see him beat that nasty Brock Lesnar, or whomever. It’s a business and they do it quite well. Dos Santos will never, ever, ever be champion of the UFC not now not ever. Wow, that sounds final doesn’t it? Okay, maybe I’m wrong, but I just don’t think so.
you’re the only person who ever thought Kongo was a contender.[/quote]
No, you’ll have to take another look at my post. I said that they hyped Kongo early on as being something that he wasn’t. Not me, I never thought he was a contender as my post above states.
[quote]The difference is that cigano has finished good competition. I’d even say his resume is longer and better than Lesnars so far; now I’m not saying he’d beat Lesnar
[/quote]
I agree with you on this he isn’t beating Lesnar either.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Dos Santos will never, ever, ever be champion of the UFC not now not ever. Wow, that sounds final doesn’t it? Okay, maybe I’m wrong, but I just don’t think so.
That’s a bold claim considering his age.[/quote]
I agree, but doesn’t this make for a far better debate?
[quote]
We can debate skillsets all day long,[/quote]
Not really, I don’t think it would take that long. Shall we try it? Carwin is a College Wrestling champion with devastating hand skills and incredible speed. Dos Santos is a purple belt in BJJ and has fair to good hand skills and below average speed. Carwin wins.
See that was fast. Oh wait, you still have to respond to that huh? Okay, maybe your right it will take all day, let’s forget it.
[quote]
I think the fight between Carwin and Mir will be a great fight and I do think that Carwin is a beast who can beat anybody on any given day.[/quote]
You probably think that because you’ve seen him move around in the cage. Unlike Dos Santos who moves like Frankenstein, okay maybe that was overly harsh, but Carwin moves like a middleweight and hits like a super HW.
I know I just now laughed about it, but when I got done laughing I thought the following:
Carwin moves with the speed of a middle weight and has harder hands than anyone in the division. He can also take a punch as we saw when Gonzaga hit him. He is a high caliber wrestler and while none of his fights have gone past 2:00 according to those who train with him his conditioning is second to none (While this is yet unproven have you ever seen a high level wrestler who didn’t have great conditioning?).
Here’s why I say that Carwin presents the only clear challenge to Lesnar. A pure striker will never beat Lesnar as Lesnar will take the fight to the ground. The best BJJ guy will never beat Lesnar as he’s learned how to deal with BJJ the same way that Matt Hughes and Randy Couture did. Therefore, you need someone who can strike and also be able to defend a Lesnar takedown. Now let me see who is that person? Right, Carwin. And he’s the ONLY one.
[quote]
I predict that before Jan 2, 2012, somebody besides Lesnar or Mir will hold the belt.[/quote]
Is this something that just came on you? Would you like to say who that person might be?
Okay, I’ll give it a shot, if your prediction is correct it will be Shane Carwin.