UFC 91 - Couture vs. Lesnar

KBCThird · November 17, 2008, 7:05pm

[quote]dhickey wrote:
This is retarded. go back and watch the fight. Pay attention to Randy’s “defense”.[/quote]

If the best argument you can come up with is to tell me my viewpoint is “retarded” maybe you should reevaluate which of one of us that tag applies to.

While we’re discussing things tho, i’d like to ask somehting when you made this suggestion

“4) He should work with one of the Gillinghams here in MN. Get rid of all the machines and start training strongman-style.”

had you ever had any first-hand experience with training for strongman for any extended period of time? I’m not talking about “yeah, I went over to this guys house once, threw a few kegs, flipped a tire.” I’m wondering if you have any idea of the wear and tear that week-in, week-out strongman training would put on the body. Because I do, and the last thing I’m thinking about after finishing a session is “lets go train some mma.” Granted, Lesnar is a freak, probably has better natural recovery than anyone on this thread, and as a pro athlete has the time, resources and incentive to devote to added recovery means, both active and passive.

But as has been pointed out numerous times, Brock’s strength is hardly the attribute that needs the most improvement - so why take away recovery ability to revise his strength training, essentially bringing sand to the beach? Xen summed it up - dont fix what aint broke.

I would also point out that if Brock DID want to train strongman he wouldnt be going to “one of the gillinghams.” Karl is the only one of the three who trains strongman; Brad is a powerlifter and Wade focuses on grip.

See how I was able to respond to your point rather than simply say “this is retarded”?

KBCThird · November 17, 2008, 7:19pm

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
slimjim wrote:
drewh wrote:
I hope Lesnar beats Nog just to keep all the holier than thou douche bags pissed off. You sound like a bunch of little 8 year olds crying because Lesnar beat The Rock at Summerslam.

Only a fag wwe fan would know that even happened.

Christ…fighters lose guys, they aren’t invincible. The way the mma forums around the net have blown up, you’d think the sky was falling.

Honestly now, a 16-9 fighter who came in smaller than most light heavyweights, and has lost to every big wrestler he has fought, just lost to a 280 pound stunning prospect with NCAA Championship wrestling credentials. How is this shocking?

And I did use Wikipedia to look up when Lesnar won, but I did know he beat the Rock from promos so I guess I am kind of bisexual.[/quote]

Awww man, Donut, you’re killing me here, I was just about to jump in and defend you “Donut’s one of the most knowledgable mma fans ont he board, he probably just picked two random wrestlers.” You’re killing me here, just killing me.

Honestly the other anti-Lesnar reactions are almost enough to embarass me. I just said I didnt agree with the stoppage, that’s all. Honestly yes, my feelings for Brock are moving more towards the negative (from neutral) but some of what’s being written is just illogical.

I’ll also say that while I’m hoping Nog beats mir and then lesnar, a brock victory is much more likely to me now than it was 72 hours ago. Especially (honestly) if theyre going to stop the fight because of stuff like what happened on saturday night. Nog isnt known for his evasiveness, jsut his ability to take punishment, but if they dont LET him take punishment, I’m not sure hwo that will affect things.

Seriously, just get mazzagatti back in there, he almost got two fighters killed saturday letting fights go on too long, we wont be having any early stoppages with him in (yes, thats a joke, no it’s not serious)

CaliforniaLaw · November 17, 2008, 7:53pm

Wat?

Watch the end of the fight. AFTER Lesnar gets off of Couture, Couture tries standing up. He falls right back down, where he lies down for a couple of minutes.

There is no legitimate argument that it was an early stoppage. None.

apbt55 · November 17, 2008, 8:04pm

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
probably the plan, wear him down and then win. To bad Brock got lucky. And if you think it was anything more than that, congratulations, your an idiot.

It really doesnt get much more ironic. It’s becoming so frequent I almost wonder if it’s being done for intentional comedy, as in “he’s no rocket surgeon,” etc. Sadly, I tend to doubt it
[/quote]

Yeah sorry , should have thought before I posted, It is aggrevating because I have fought and I know how promotors can be, and Brock is a big strong athletic guy, and has a skill set that is very difficult for Couture. So Randy was sticking to a gameplan, that unless you understand what he is doing, might seem futile.

I don’t think brock will have what it takes to beat either Mir or Nog, but we have people now that think he is the undipsuted champion or something, as far as I knew Nog still had the interim belt and he isn’t until he beats the winner of Nog/ Mir.

Sorry, I will apologize, I don’t think he should have gotten a title that soon, he hasn’t proven himself against multiple opponents. So I guess I should be more disappointed in the UFC then anything, but he will eventually have to fight Mir or Nogera so then I will be happy,

And yes if Randy is up for it I would like to see them fight again,

Donut62 · November 17, 2008, 8:26pm

The fact that Randy had the title was just as much of a sham as Brock winning it. He got beat by Liddell twice, retired for a year and half, and then got to fight for the belt in weight class he hadn’t been in for 4 years? And then throws a hissy fit, retires again, then sues to breach his contract, and finally after realizing how far his shit was about to get pushed in in the courts comes back as the champion even though the belt he vacated had already been fought for in his absence?

Let’s not pretend this belt has some sacred lineage that was violated by a 3-1 guy winning it.

dhickey · November 17, 2008, 8:16pm

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
dhickey wrote:
This is retarded. go back and watch the fight. Pay attention to Randy’s “defense”.

If the best argument you can come up with is to tell me my viewpoint is “retarded” maybe you should reevaluate which of one of us that tag applies to.
[/quote]
If the shoe fits…

While we’re discussing things tho, i’d like to ask somehting when you made this suggestion

“4) He should work with one of the Gillinghams here in MN. Get rid of all the machines and start training strongman-style.”

had you ever had any first-hand experience with training for strongman for any extended period of time? I’m not talking about “yeah, I went over to this guys house once, threw a few kegs, flipped a tire.” I’m wondering if you have any idea of the wear and tear that week-in, week-out strongman training would put on the body. Because I do, and the last thing I’m thinking about after finishing a session is “lets go train some mma.” Granted, Lesnar is a freak, probably has better natural recovery than anyone on this thread, and as a pro athlete has the time, resources and incentive to devote to added recovery means, both active and passive.

I don’t compete. just goof around with it.

I have my own tire that I flip once a week.

I have a car tire and rim that I filled with sand to carry around like a huseafeld stone. It’s only about 200lbs.

I was doing fingle fingers with some dead elms I cut down. I chopped those up for firewood. I have to cut another one down soon to continue doing that.

I throw logs and rocks around quite a bit.

I have built and used other strongman type devices for training.

Hopefully that fills your need for info about me. As far as recovery, training is training. I happen to think he would be better off doing more powerlifting or strongman type training. Just the opinion of some anonymous guy on a web forum.

If he replaced bodybuilding with some sort of functional strength training, how would recovery be any different? I have seen write-ups on his weight regiment and it seems like more of weekend warrior type program. If he replaced this with PL or strong man type training, wouldn’t he be even stronger? Didn’t think this would be such a hottly contested subject.

[quote]
I would also point out that if Brock DID want to train strongman he wouldnt be going to “one of the gillinghams.” Karl is the only one of the three who trains strongman; Brad is a powerlifter and Wade focuses on grip.

See how I was able to respond to your point rather than simply say “this is retarded”?[/quote]

If I could reach accross the web and give you a pat on the back I would. Good job.

Schwarzfahrer · November 18, 2008, 1:31am

Wow. This thread has gone to shit.
I strongly want to distance myself from any type of nuthuggery here; I’m certainly not a Brock fan since most of the time I’m rooting for the technical (I know, Brock isn’t Sapp, he’s “technical”, too) guys rather then the specimen. But:
Brock has proven his mettle.

dhickey, you misunderstood me here:

I meant: Before this fight, a lot of questions were still pending. (can he really box or was the Herring punch just a lucky one, how is his clinch etc.)

I think Nog will find it too tempting and trade punches with him anyway…

dhickey · November 17, 2008, 8:46pm

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Wow. This thread has gone to shit.
I strongly want to distance myself from any type of nuthuggery here; I’m certainly not a Brock fan since most of the time I’m rooting for the technical (I know, Brock isn’t Sapp, he’s “technical”, too) guys rather then the specimen. But:
Brock has proven his mettle.

dhickey, you misunderstood me here:

One more thing:
Lesnar isn’t a phantom anymore.
His next opponent will have a good idea of what to expect now.

An ass beating?

I meant: Before this fight, a lot of questions were still pending. (can he really box or was the Herring punch just a lucky one, how is his clinch etc.)

I think Nog will find it too tempting and trade punches with him anyway…

[/quote]

I didn’t misunderstand you. I was just being a smart ass.

DoubleR · November 17, 2008, 9:16pm

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
DoubleR wrote:
I definitely agree with the glass jaw theory, and Frank Mir has already proven that Lesnar can be out wrestled.

Out wrestled? How did Mir out wrestler Lesnar? You’re saying that because Lesnar was caught in a leg lock? [/quote]

It’s pretty simple…Lesnar tried to out wrestle Mir by using his no doubt superior strength and he got caught slippin. He even said so himself after the fight that he was not prepared for a wrestler/grappler of Mir’s level at that time. Don’t take it personally dude, Mir beat him and that’s that. I was just making an observation.

DoubleR · November 17, 2008, 9:21pm

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
R@NE wrote:
Where do these glass jaw theories come from?

Frank Mir was outwrestling Brock Lesnar… Reeeally!?

Exactly they must have been watching a different fight. [/quote]

I never said he was out wrestling him, I said Mir proved he “could” be. Anyway enough already, I personally don’t like either one of em so I could care less, the fact is he lost to Mir because he thought he was going to destroy him on the ground and he got cocky. Case closed

HangerBaby · November 17, 2008, 9:43pm

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
3rdegreebyrne wrote:
Fedor would still beat him I believe.

Really? You sure you want to go out on a limb like that and say that you think the best fighter and the best p4p fighter might beat brock? Do you wanna go out on another limb and say that Obama will win last week’s election?
[/quote]

Lol my thoughts exactly

apbt55 · November 17, 2008, 10:21pm

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
DoubleR wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
DoubleR wrote:
I definitely agree with the glass jaw theory, and Frank Mir has already proven that Lesnar can be out wrestled.

Out wrestled? How did Mir out wrestler Lesnar? You’re saying that because Lesnar was caught in a leg lock?

It’s pretty simple…Lesnar tried to out wrestle Mir by using his no doubt superior strength and he got caught slippin. He even said so himself after the fight that he was not prepared for a wrestler/grappler of Mir’s level at that time. Don’t take it personally dude, Mir beat him and that’s that. I was just making an observation.

No I’m not taking it personally. It’s just that Mir didn’t out wrestle Lesnar. He was better at submissions and caught him in a knee bar. But in terms of actual wrestling Lesnar was in control.[/quote]

yepp mir is not a wrestler,

If the mir of old would star showing up people would be in trouble, the way he did before he broke his femur

analog_kid · November 17, 2008, 10:36pm

Some of you guys are getting a little too worked up over this. If you don’t like that Brock won, go fight him and prove he can’t beat someone with l337 MMA skillz.

I wanted Randy to win too, but I don’t think there is much to complain about here. The stoppage was a good call, Randy got beat. Move on.

vikingpride · November 18, 2008, 1:13am

MMA fights are all about styles (as many have said)

Randy just fought a bigger stronger more athletic wrestler who also has some wrestling skills.

Overall it was a bad matchup for Randy.

Brock is gonna win that matchup 9 times out of 10.

The only type of fighter who will stop a physical specimen like brock is a top of the line jitz/submission guy(Nog,mir, gonzaga). It would also help if the guy is big and can take a punch. Thats why i think someone like nog/ gonzaga will give him the biggest threat in the UFC.

3rdegreebyrne · November 18, 2008, 2:10am

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
3rdegreebyrne wrote:
Fedor would still beat him I believe.

Really? You sure you want to go out on a limb like that and say that you think the best fighter and the best p4p fighter might beat brock? Do you wanna go out on another limb and say that Obama will win last week’s election?
[/quote]

Hahaha, sarcasm - you funny. Read the whole post and contribute something thoughtful next time - like a comment on your opinion of different styles and how they affect fight outcomes perhaps? Or maybe something about my future fight predictions.

KBCThird · November 18, 2008, 2:30am

[quote]3rdegreebyrne wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
3rdegreebyrne wrote:
Fedor would still beat him I believe.

Really? You sure you want to go out on a limb like that and say that you think the best fighter and the best p4p fighter might beat brock? Do you wanna go out on another limb and say that Obama will win last week’s election?

Hahaha, sarcasm - you funny. Read the whole post and contribute something thoughtful next time - like a comment on your opinion of different styles and how they affect fight outcomes perhaps? Or maybe something about my future fight predictions. [/quote]

I read the whole post, and chose not to point out the inconsistency that you wanted brock to lose against mir because he hadnt paid his dues, but now, two whole fights later, that is apparently not an issue.

What else did you want me to comment on, you repeating that styles make fights? No kidding?

Or the future possibility of randy vs fedor? well, while it’s even more unlikely to happen now, i’d still pay to see it

Tallguyy76 · November 18, 2008, 2:43am

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Tallguyy76 wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:

I catch your drift but different sports select for different mental and physical attributes. This is why I don’t get it when people compare all athletes to American football players. I have seen maybe 2 legit two sport pro athletes. Bo Jackson and Deon(sp)Sanders and they were mediocre at baseball.

Guys like Tony Gonzalez and Terrell Owens are better then average but nothing special when they dabble in basketball. Fedor is a world Sambo champion, Matt Lindland is an Olympic silver medalist, Yoshida is an Olympic gold medalist as was Kevin Jackson.

Couture and Dan Henderson were both Olympic alternates. There are several BJJ world champions. There are plenty of world class level athletes in MMA and they have had varying success.

How do you even define world class athlete? Depends on your sport. Lance Armstrong and Usain Bolt are both classifeid as elite athletes but their sports select for totally opposing physical traits.

I was reading a post on Elite FTS from The Thinker and he made a good point about the difference between being a physical specimen and having talent at your sport with Brock Lesnar being a prime example. He is a physical specimen but lacked the football talent to play in the NFL.

Just like guys like Johnny Morton or Bob Sapp lacked the talent to go far in fighting. In the end talent reigns supreme. Brock won last night because his talent for fighting was greater then Randy’s edge in experience.

Then there’s the mental component. People in individual sports tend to be EXTREMELY self driven overachievers. I know there are people with freakish work ethics in team sports but all in all people in individual sports just seem to be cut from a different cloth.

In fighting having 4.2 40, a 40 inch vertical, bench pressing 400 lbs are great but can you display that athleticism when your exhausted or getting punched in the face.

They compare athletes to American football because American Football uses the most athletic qualities of any sport within the multiple positions required to play the game. Offensive lineman tend to have very high IQ’s, quarterbacks have to be able to handle pressure situations, safety’s need endurance, strength speed, the ability to read a persons eyes, quickness, toughness, anticipation, and concentration. I’d put someone Polamulu athletic prowess up against anybody.

Did you even semi look at the crazy shit you just typed? Bo and Deon were average baseball players? How many people play ONLY baseball year round (including camps) and can’t make it to the pros? Making a pro team is not average, making a pro team as a side job is definitely not average. Your practically making the point for dhickey that MMA doesn’t have the genetic freaks, because at some point you do need skill to win, and if you have a genetic freak spending 6 days a week for 10 years on football, try wrestling or MMA for 3 months then lose a fight, he’s going to be like “fuck this it’s not meant for me”. Who knows what he may have done if he spent 10 years training.
[/quote]

My post was not a slide against the talent it takes to make the professional level of any sport. I meant compared to other baseball players at the elite level they were average. Would you call either hall of fame players? That does not detract from the fact that they were freak of nature alactic athletes and incredible football players. Would either win a marathon?

Would someone with the anatomy and physical talents of an NFL defensive end ever have the tools to beat Roger Federor in a tennis match? Linebacker? Eh maybe a corner? My point was that people gravitate towards sports they are naturally good at and at the elite levels competition selects those who have the most natural talent and gifts to succeed. You can’t use the same measuring stick for all athletes.

3rdegreebyrne · November 18, 2008, 2:54am

[quote]KBCThird wrote:
3rdegreebyrne wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
3rdegreebyrne wrote:
Fedor would still beat him I believe.

Really? You sure you want to go out on a limb like that and say that you think the best fighter and the best p4p fighter might beat brock? Do you wanna go out on another limb and say that Obama will win last week’s election?

Hahaha, sarcasm - you funny. Read the whole post and contribute something thoughtful next time - like a comment on your opinion of different styles and how they affect fight outcomes perhaps? Or maybe something about my future fight predictions.

I read the whole post, and chose not to point out the inconsistency that you wanted brock to lose against mir because he hadnt paid his dues, but now, two whole fights later, that is apparently not an issue.

What else did you want me to comment on, you repeating that styles make fights? No kidding?

Or the future possibility of randy vs fedor? well, while it’s even more unlikely to happen now, i’d still pay to see it[/quote]

All I’m saying is that you picked out a pretty insignificant comment out of my post that had nothing to do with the main theme of what I was saying - when you could have just left it alone. If you thought my post redundant - than fine, keep it to yourself. About my inconstancy. I virtually knew nothing about Lesner when he vs’ed Mir, all i knew was it was another technique vs muscles match and I wanted technqiue to win. Seeing him a couple more times - I think he has got what it takes, only just a little bit more down the road.

dhickey · November 18, 2008, 2:58am

[quote]Tallguyy76 wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
Tallguyy76 wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote: