UFC 91 - Couture vs. Lesnar

Training
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[quote]R@NE wrote:
Fucking audience booing at Lesnar even after the fight, seriously retarded in my opionion… He showed Randy Couture the appropriate respect, especially after the fight.

Couture simply didn’t have usefull offensive weapons… I thought he would have worked the submission angle more since that seems to be prettymuch “all” that one can do to Lesnar at this point(?), but his defense was still a lot better than what I personally expected it to be against someone as explosive and strong as Brock Lesnar.

It was a great fight and I doubt this was the last we see of Randy Couture. [/quote]

Agreed. Randy would give anyone else in the HW or LHW division fits. This was simply a bad match-up for him.

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I noticed that Cheick Kongo’s name was not thrown in the bunch of HW contender’s. Any specific reason?

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[quote]apbt55 wrote:
So who actually watched the fight that knows anything, Randy was in his game until, the elbow, which he recovered nicely giving up probably about 60 pounds, and then a punch he just didn’t roll enough on, lesnar is a tool did nothing to improve himself,
[/quote]
You obviously didn’t watch the fight or you know nothing about MMA. Which is it?

  1. Randy lost the first round and was on his way to losing the 2nd. Brock hit him with a couple of good shots. It was just a matter of time.
  2. Brock’s striking looked better but still rough. He hit Randy several times in the clinch and in space.

Wrong. Just becuase someone is breathing a bit heavy doesn’t mean they are gassed. Besides his breathing (which wasn’t that heavy) what other signs of being gassed did he show? How was performance in the 2nd round any different than the first?

Thank you. You just proved to us all that you know nothing about mma. Maybe you should comment on Randy’s headbutt that broke Gonzaga’s knose.

More evidence of your MMA knowledge. Thanks.

Ok. you are a complete tool. Randy is a very good wrestler and an MMA veteran. To think that he has nothing for Brock and Brock is a tool for not completely dominating him is retarded, much like your posts in this thread.

  1. Brock was never “trapped”. He pretty easily got away every time Randy mounted an offense.
  2. What do you concider rist control? Letting Brock grab his arm and do what he pleases with it?

[quote]
This set MMA back so far, I hope he fights Mir or Nog, and gets something broke just welcome him to the sport, for real.

He is not just a genetic freak, it is chemical enhancement, he is a disrespectful. SOB. [/quote]

And you’re a complete idiot. How exactly is he setting the sport back? He is going to help take the sport to the next level. He will help draw more fans, more money, and more press. Guess what all of this does for the sport?

If you are missing the old days of pure MMA, I suggest you go back and watch the earlier events and some of the pioneers of the sport. Dan Severn, Don Frye, Mark Coleman, Mark Kerr, Kevin Randleman, etc. I am excluding several people but these were all good wrestlers that did very well and evolved over time. Oh yeah, forgot about Randy. He got a title shot after 4 MMA fights.

If you are so disgusted by acts of disrespect, you are not going to like many people in MMA. Many have their little post fight antics. Many talk shit pre fight. For everything you think you hate about Brock, you find 10 fold from those you probably respect.

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[quote]apbt55 wrote:
R@NE wrote:
Fucking audience booing at Lesnar even after the fight, seriously retarded in my opionion… He showed Randy Couture the appropriate respect, especially after the fight.

Couture simply didn’t have usefull offensive weapons… I thought he would have worked the submission angle more since that seems to be prettymuch “all” that one can do to Lesnar at this point(?), but his defense was still a lot better than what I personally expected it to be against someone as explosive and strong as Brock Lesnar.

It was a great fight and I doubt this was the last we see of Randy Couture.

idiot, completely dismanteld lesnar’s offense, that was the point.

probably the plan, wear him down and then win. To bad Brock got lucky. And if you think it was anything more than that, congratulations, your an idiot.[/quote]

Yeah, the plan was to lose the first two rounds. Who’s the idoit?

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[quote]apbt55 wrote:
Wow you guys are really serious,
There was one point on the cage where brock turned it around and picked randy because he didn’t keep his leverage.

I had a bunch of guys I train with and we all saw it the other, not outclassed in the least, randy was simply outweighed.

And at the end of the first round Lesnar was definitely gassed and frustrated.

Remember Randy is Greco not college freestyle, he was doing what a greco wrestler does,
[/quote]

getting his ass beat?

146

[quote]DoubleR wrote:
I definitely agree with the glass jaw theory, and Frank Mir has already proven that Lesnar can be out wrestled. [/quote]

Why would you guys think that he has a glass jaw? What are you basing this on?

His huge head? Oh wait, that’s a good thing for taking a punch.

His small chin? Oh wait, that’s a good thing for taking a punch.

His short thick neck? Oh wait, that’s a good thing for taking a punch.

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[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
dhickey wrote:

  1. Somebody work with him on key locks. When he had Randy down, he was doing whatever he wanted with Randy’s arm. There may not be many people that can defend against a key lock from Brock.

  2. Bring in a huge Judo or Greco Roman champion to work with him. He should be able to toss anyone from the clinch, but only seems to like the double-leg.

  3. Someone work with him on his Muay Tie clinch. If he gets the plumb he’s either going to break your jaw or your arms if you try and block his knees.

  4. He should work with one of the Gillinghams here in MN. Get rid of all the machines and start training strongman-style.

  5. He’s working with erik paulson a bit I believe. He’ll get WELL versed in subs. Possibly josh barnett as well which would solve a shiiiiiit load of his ‘weaknesses’.

  6. I agree. I’d love to see his wrestling record but I’m willing to bet this was his bread and butter. Though he kept trying to spear randy through the fence I half expected him to give a shoutout to goldberg for the spear.

  7. He’s working with literally the best in the country on his muay thai clinch- Greg Nelson. He’s easily one of the top 3 coaches in the country. Look up his bio RIDICULOUS.

  8. Imo, don’t try to fix what aint broke.
    [/quote]
    If he wants to stay competitive he is going to have to continue to evolve. They said gonzaga was training powerlifting. There will other big guys to come that will give him a run for his money if he keeps lifting like a figure competitor.

Do you think Brock will take it to the ground with Nog? Do you think Nog will take him down? Does Nog have KO power?

Completely different fight than with Nog. Gonzaga is a brute with heavy hands and good kicks. He can take a beating and pull a sub if it goes to the ground. I personally think this is a more interesting match-up. If Brock happens to get past Mir/Nog, I think this is his first title defense. If he loses to Mir/Nog, we probably won’t get to see it for some time.

I think now is his best chance. He should have the striking advantage and should be able to at least fend off a TD. As Brock gets better, the advantage goes away.

All that said I think Fedor would rape him.[/quote]

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[quote]R@NE wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
probably the plan, wear him down and then win. To bad Brock got lucky. And if you think it was anything more than that, congratulations, your an idiot.

Take your beer goggles off and watch the fight again.

At no point was Lesnar in trouble… He took that one knee that cut him slightly, but otherwise he was in control of the fight.

As far as the finish goes, it’s size that masks the speed at which Lesnar throws a left straight, right hook combo… It’s hard to see if Randy was going for a takedown or if he was simply too slow in trying to duck the hook (his guard was down), but either way Brock’s striking was spot on, caught Randy first in the temple then right behind the ear and he simply folds… Lesnar is immediately on him and you can see at least 2/3rds of his strikes (I count about 30 in total) landing unopposed on Couture’s head bouncing it at the canvas, then the “baby elbows” start to land and you can clearly see them coming down straight at the bridge of Randy’s nose. Game over.

Randy Couture has come a full circle now, but as I said before I dont think it’s the last we see of him… Well I hope anyway.

Edit: Want more proof of the damage Couture took, take a look at the locker room footage after the event… loose tooth, bruises all over his face… Still grinning though. Damned if he ain’t one cool dude.
[/quote]

Don’t drink, never said couture dominated him,

I said couture was sticking the gameplan he needed to, in order to win, and yes I do feel he was doing a good job until that point, he even recovered nicely after the first elbow given the risk involved with being dazed.

And all of us watching the event at my place that night thought this way, that if it had continued the way it was before he got caught randy would have stuck to his gameplan and pulled it off.

Personally I prefer big strong wrestler, especially high school or collegiate. They tend to have certain attributes ingrained into them that leave them more susceptible to submissions, sweeps and strikes.

And I also the luxury of one of my training partners being a former college wrestler that walks around around 290 now, completely shredded. actually very similar in stature to brock.

And I know if I can weather the first couple onslots, I will be fine. And trust me I walk around at 235 and cut to 205, he is the only person I know that push me around like a little baby doll. Just have to follow your gameplan and not make mistakes.

I think a Mir and a Randy are very good match ups to brock. how many takedowns was he able to pull off on his first attempt. I don’t believe any, I think he got randy down twice but it took him a lot, and randy worked his way back to his feet, even out of positions a good 185lb jiu jitsu guy would have had him trapped in. That is why I say he was doing good, because he was doing what he had set out to do.

He is smaller and tie up greco style wrestler he wasn’t going out there to slam brock around and waste energy,

And no he was not out at the end. he lost it was over he had no reason to keep trying, the ref made a good stop for the safety of randy. it was good call Brock won, but I don’t think Brock dominated the fight, and was definitely frustrated at the end of the first round, when he was against, the fence it wasn’t a look of awe this guy has nothing it was, what the hell can I do, this little guy is pinning me here and the only way I move him is if his from slips, and everytime I get him down he gets up.

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[quote]Tallguyy76 wrote:
dhickey wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:

I catch your drift but different sports select for different mental and physical attributes. This is why I don’t get it when people compare all athletes to American football players. I have seen maybe 2 legit two sport pro athletes. Bo Jackson and Deon(sp)Sanders and they were mediocre at baseball.

Guys like Tony Gonzalez and Terrell Owens are better then average but nothing special when they dabble in basketball. Fedor is a world Sambo champion, Matt Lindland is an Olympic silver medalist, Yoshida is an Olympic gold medalist as was Kevin Jackson.

Couture and Dan Henderson were both Olympic alternates. There are several BJJ world champions. There are plenty of world class level athletes in MMA and they have had varying success.

How do you even define world class athlete? Depends on your sport. Lance Armstrong and Usain Bolt are both classifeid as elite athletes but their sports select for totally opposing physical traits.

I was reading a post on Elite FTS from The Thinker and he made a good point about the difference between being a physical specimen and having talent at your sport with Brock Lesnar being a prime example. He is a physical specimen but lacked the football talent to play in the NFL.

Just like guys like Johnny Morton or Bob Sapp lacked the talent to go far in fighting. In the end talent reigns supreme. Brock won last night because his talent for fighting was greater then Randy’s edge in experience.

Then there’s the mental component. People in individual sports tend to be EXTREMELY self driven overachievers. I know there are people with freakish work ethics in team sports but all in all people in individual sports just seem to be cut from a different cloth.

In fighting having 4.2 40, a 40 inch vertical, bench pressing 400 lbs are great but can you display that athleticism when your exhausted or getting punched in the face.

[/quote]
They compare athletes to American football because American Football uses the most athletic qualities of any sport within the multiple positions required to play the game. Offensive lineman tend to have very high IQ’s, quarterbacks have to be able to handle pressure situations, safety’s need endurance, strength speed, the ability to read a persons eyes, quickness, toughness, anticipation, and concentration. I’d put someone Polamulu athletic prowess up against anybody.

Did you even semi look at the crazy shit you just typed? Bo and Deon were average baseball players? How many people play ONLY baseball year round (including camps) and can’t make it to the pros? Making a pro team is not average, making a pro team as a side job is definitely not average. Your practically making the point for dhickey that MMA doesn’t have the genetic freaks, because at some point you do need skill to win, and if you have a genetic freak spending 6 days a week for 10 years on football, try wrestling or MMA for 3 months then lose a fight, he’s going to be like “fuck this it’s not meant for me”. Who knows what he may have done if he spent 10 years training.

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I hope Lesnar beats Nog just to keep all the holier than thou douche bags pissed off. You sound like a bunch of little 8 year olds crying because Lesnar beat The Rock at Summerslam.

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Couture needs to retire - he’s 45!!

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[quote]Simba wrote:
Couture needs to retire - he’s 45!![/quote]

Humans can live to be a 1000 years old, that’s only 4.5% of his final age.

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I hope Lesnar beats Nog just to keep all the holier than thou douche bags pissed off. You sound like a bunch of little 8 year olds crying because Lesnar beat The Rock at Summerslam.

Only a fag wwe fan would know that even happened.

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[quote]drewh wrote:
I hope Lesnar beats Nog just to keep all the holier than thou douche bags pissed off. You sound like a bunch of little 8 year olds crying because Lesnar beat The Rock at Summerslam.

Only a fag wwe fan would know that even happened.[/quote]

Christ…fighters lose guys, they aren’t invincible. The way the mma forums around the net have blown up, you’d think the sky was falling.

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[quote]slimjim wrote:
drewh wrote:
I hope Lesnar beats Nog just to keep all the holier than thou douche bags pissed off. You sound like a bunch of little 8 year olds crying because Lesnar beat The Rock at Summerslam.

Only a fag wwe fan would know that even happened.

Christ…fighters lose guys, they aren’t invincible. The way the mma forums around the net have blown up, you’d think the sky was falling.[/quote]

Honestly now, a 16-9 fighter who came in smaller than most light heavyweights, and has lost to every big wrestler he has fought, just lost to a 280 pound stunning prospect with NCAA Championship wrestling credentials. How is this shocking?

And I did use Wikipedia to look up when Lesnar won, but I did know he beat the Rock from promos so I guess I am kind of bisexual.

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[quote]apbt55 wrote:
probably the plan, wear him down and then win. To bad Brock got lucky. And if you think it was anything more than that, congratulations, your an idiot.[/quote]

It really doesnt get much more ironic. It’s becoming so frequent I almost wonder if it’s being done for intentional comedy, as in “he’s no rocket surgeon,” etc. Sadly, I tend to doubt it

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[quote]3rdegreebyrne wrote:
Fedor would still beat him I believe.
[/quote]

Really? You sure you want to go out on a limb like that and say that you think the best fighter and the best p4p fighter might beat brock? Do you wanna go out on another limb and say that Obama will win last week’s election?

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[quote]Tallguyy76 wrote:
Then there’s the mental component. People in individual sports tend to be EXTREMELY self driven overachievers. I know there are people with freakish work ethics in team sports but all in all people in individual sports just seem to be cut from a different cloth.

In fighting having 4.2 40, a 40 inch vertical, bench pressing 400 lbs are great but can you display that athleticism when your exhausted or getting punched in the face.
[/quote]

i think it has to do with the fact that in team sports, there is pressure not to let your teammates down, so you work harder for that reason. When you take away that kind of (positive) peer pressure as with an individual sport there are fewer people who can push as hard as possible.

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[quote]Mick28 wrote:
40&Big wrote:

He also had a 4 inch reach advantage which is odd considering they are the same height.

They’re not the same height.[/quote]

http://www.freep.com/article/20081115/SPORTS18/81115061/?imw=Y

According to this the actual reach advantage was 81-75 Lesnar.
The pre fight TOTT on the broadcast had both at 6’3.

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Wow, what an exciting card. While I was happy to see either win, this youngster summed up my opinion of the overall event.