[quote]apbt55 wrote:
R@NE wrote:
probably the plan, wear him down and then win. To bad Brock got lucky. And if you think it was anything more than that, congratulations, your an idiot.[/quote]
When someone has no legitimate criticisms to level at an athlete, it is best to resort to accusing them of cheating, steroids and luck.
[quote]apbt55 wrote:
So who actually watched the fight that knows anything, Randy was in his game until, the elbow, which he recovered nicely giving up probably about 60 pounds, and then a punch he just didn’t roll enough on, lesnar is a tool did nothing to improve himself, [/quote]
First, I think I know something, I haven’t competed in MMA, but I have kickboxed competitively, and competed in nogi jiu jitsu. Randy was outmatched. Brock was obviously pacing himself, having him against the cage a decent amount of the time doesn’t mean Brock still wasn’t in control during the fight.
As for doing nothing to improve himself, how so? He’s obviously more prepared than his first fight, and shit, he’s only had what, 4 fights total?
He was gassed? How do you figure? The only time he even looked gassed was while he was against the fence, and he didn’t seem that concerned about being there to me.
He sure didn’t seem gassed any time they were standing up striking. He sure didn’t seem gassed when he was on top of Randy throwing repeated strikes as fast as he could. He sure didn’t seem gassed after the fight was stopped, and just walked around, barely breathing hard. Sure as hell didn’t come off as being “gassed” to me. Supposedly illegal?
The back of the head is illegal, and while it could be considered questionable, I wouldn’t consider it at all to be illegal, and apparently they didn’t see it your way either.
[quote]I hope they let randy fight him again, that retard was trapped against the fence by someone much older and much smaller, he couldn’t hold him down, and he wasn’t control randy’s if you know anything you would realize randy was using wrist control from the bottom to create space for an escape.
This set MMA back so far, I hope he fights Mir or Nog, and gets something broke just welcome him to the sport, for real.
He is not just a genetic freak, it is chemical enhancement, he is a disrespectful. SOB. [/quote]
He was hardly trapped, from what I could see, any more than I would be trapped when I’ve got someone 45lbs less than me pushing me against the fence or a wall.
He was taking his time, he was calm, and didn’t appear worried at all about the position he was in. He also didn’t appear to have much problem pushing Randy away and into the fence pretty much at will either.
Are you sure you watched the same fight?
Wow you guys are really serious,
There was one point on the cage where brock turned it around and picked randy because he didn’t keep his leverage.
I had a bunch of guys I train with and we all saw it the other, not outclassed in the least, randy was simply outweighed.
And at the end of the first round Lesnar was definitely gassed and frustrated.
Remember Randy is Greco not college freestyle, he was doing what a greco wrestler does,
[quote]JD430 wrote:
Just curious…why do you feel this way? He does talk some bullshit here and there but I figure that is just his pro-wrestling persona being egged on by Dana. I don’t know the man, but he seemed pretty cool to me on that all access show.
[/quote]
Being a smallish guy, I got really put off by Brock in his ESPN interviews. He basically said he used to pick on and beat up other kids when he was younger and that’s what he did for kicks. I recognize that he’s a great athlete and was respectful in winning, however I’m still uncomfortable with the fact that he was basically a huge asshole in the past.
While I’m here… I’ll agree that styles make fights and that Brock was a stylistic nightmare for Couture. Losing to Lesnar doesn’t make Couture irrelevant.
A big HW like Gonzaga has the kind of style that could dismantle Brock. But Couture could definitely beat Gonzaga again. Not that he’d hang around for Mir/Nog/Gonzaga to get the title, but it could happen.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
One more thing:
Lesnar isn’t a phantom anymore.
His next opponent will have a good idea of what to expect now.
An ass beating?
I love wrestling and and have lived in MN my entire life, so I am a bit of a Brock nuthugger, but here is my assesment.
Somebody work with him on key locks. When he had Randy down, he was doing whatever he wanted with Randy’s arm. There may not be many people that can defend against a key lock from Brock.
Bring in a huge Judo or Greco Roman champion to work with him. He should be able to toss anyone from the clinch, but only seems to like the double-leg.
Someone work with him on his Muay Tie clinch. If he gets the plumb he’s either going to break your jaw or your arms if you try and block his knees.
He should work with one of the Gillinghams here in MN. Get rid of all the machines and start training strongman-style.
The guy is genetic freak and has the potential to be unstoppable if works with the right people.
As much as I wanted to think that he wasn’t ready for Randy, I just couldn’t force myself to beleive he was going to lose this fight. I am feeling the same way about the possibility of Nog or Mir. To be frank, I think he would have more problems with Carwin or Gonzaga. Both are better strikers and should be able to defend the takedown reasonably well.
Lesnar is just the start of things to come. As we start to see salaries go up, we will continue to see world-class atheletes come to MMA. MMA still has nowhere near the class of atheletes that other major sports do, but will start to see this change.[/quote]
I catch your drift but different sports select for different mental and physical attributes. This is why I don’t get it when people compare all athletes to American football players. I have seen maybe 2 legit two sport pro athletes. Bo Jackson and Deon(sp)Sanders and they were mediocre at baseball.
Guys like Tony Gonzalez and Terrell Owens are better then average but nothing special when they dabble in basketball. Fedor is a world Sambo champion, Matt Lindland is an Olympic silver medalist, Yoshida is an Olympic gold medalist as was Kevin Jackson.
Couture and Dan Henderson were both Olympic alternates. There are several BJJ world champions. There are plenty of world class level athletes in MMA and they have had varying success.
How do you even define world class athlete? Depends on your sport. Lance Armstrong and Usain Bolt are both classifeid as elite athletes but their sports select for totally opposing physical traits.
I was reading a post on Elite FTS from The Thinker and he made a good point about the difference between being a physical specimen and having talent at your sport with Brock Lesnar being a prime example. He is a physical specimen but lacked the football talent to play in the NFL.
Just like guys like Johnny Morton or Bob Sapp lacked the talent to go far in fighting. In the end talent reigns supreme. Brock won last night because his talent for fighting was greater then Randy’s edge in experience.
Then there’s the mental component. People in individual sports tend to be EXTREMELY self driven overachievers. I know there are people with freakish work ethics in team sports but all in all people in individual sports just seem to be cut from a different cloth.
In fighting having 4.2 40, a 40 inch vertical, bench pressing 400 lbs are great but can you display that athleticism when your exhausted or getting punched in the face.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
ProfessorCHAOS96 wrote:
dhickey wrote:
MMA still has nowhere near the class of atheletes that other major sports do, but will start to see this change.
I agree with everything you said, except for that line.
Maybe I should clarify. Not knocking dedication or hardwork. Really just speaking to guys that are genetic freaks like lesnar. MMA doesn’t have the physical specimens or atheletes that the NFL has. Not even close. Especially true in the HW division.[/quote]
I think you make a good point but I don’t think it is a clear cut issue.
Many NFL players would be considered HWs or at least LHWs. Linebackers, defensive ends, running backs, safeties etc. Cornerbacks and receivers probably not maybe MW and if they cut WW. So I think the impact on lighter classes will not be as great.
Lesnar wrestled. I think the guys in HS would have to pick wrestling instead of going out for football. Will they do that? I think we will se an increase but I don’t think the majority is going to. Or maybe they can train at an mma school on top of HS/college football. Though mma schools have shown to not be cheap.
You also have the issue of there being only one champ per weightclass. Even if pay rises alot in mma you would still have to keep winning and probably be the champ or contender.
Compare that contract pay in the NFL or guaranteed contracts in the NBA. And you don’t have to be the best guy on your team to be paid millions. So I don’t think the lure of mma is going to be THAT strong for these guys. You can still make millions boxing but there are no more American HWs.
Why get paid nillions to be punched in the head when you can get paid millions to play a team sport where you don’t have to be the best player?
This also does not consider other countries. The best athletes in other countries don’t have football to go to. The best brazilian athletes play soccer or I guess do BJJ/mmma.
In ten years or 20 years I kind of feel people will still make the same argument. You cannot know if a guy who decided to wrestle or do mma would not have made a great football player.
Then you might still be left with the same question as to whether mma is getting the best athletes because I don’t think the NFL is going to feel much of an impact as they will always get the best athletes who play football.
People keep saying Randy was outweighed by 40 pounds. Lesnar went from 278 the night before weighins to 265. I would guess that after rehydrating, Lesnar was back up to 280. Thats 55 pounds. Lesnar had the classic look of a guy whose body was filled with water. Bloated and bigger than shit.
He also had a 4 inch reach advantage which is odd considering they are the same height. The few times Randy did land a solid punch, he was unable to follow up because Lesnar distanced himself with his reach.
Really, in the heavyweight class, it’s any given Sunday. Even Sylvia, with his ability to keep distance and kick, has a punchers chance against Lesnar.
Personally, I would love to see someone with equal or greater reach and decent ground game go with Lesnar. I suspect he has a glass jaw, and he obviously cuts easy.
He is an enormous wrestler with FAIR standup. He is in NO way invincible.
I definitely agree with the glass jaw theory, and Frank Mir has already proven that Lesnar can be out wrestled.
The stoppage was just. Randy would’ve taken permanent abuse had it not been stopped. He was out. Couldn’t get up.
[quote]apbt55 wrote:
probably the plan, wear him down and then win. To bad Brock got lucky. And if you think it was anything more than that, congratulations, your an idiot.[/quote]
Take your beer goggles off and watch the fight again.
At no point was Lesnar in trouble… He took that one knee that cut him slightly, but otherwise he was in control of the fight.
As far as the finish goes, it’s size that masks the speed at which Lesnar throws a left straight, right hook combo… It’s hard to see if Randy was going for a takedown or if he was simply too slow in trying to duck the hook (his guard was down), but either way Brock’s striking was spot on, caught Randy first in the temple then right behind the ear and he simply folds… Lesnar is immediately on him and you can see at least 2/3rds of his strikes (I count about 30 in total) landing unopposed on Couture’s head bouncing it at the canvas, then the “baby elbows” start to land and you can clearly see them coming down straight at the bridge of Randy’s nose. Game over.
Randy Couture has come a full circle now, but as I said before I dont think it’s the last we see of him… Well I hope anyway.
Edit: Want more proof of the damage Couture took, take a look at the locker room footage after the event… loose tooth, bruises all over his face… Still grinning though. Damned if he ain’t one cool dude.
Where do these glass jaw theories come from?
Frank Mir was outwrestling Brock Lesnar… Reeeally!?
[quote]R@NE wrote:
Where do these glass jaw theories come from?
Frank Mir was outwrestling Brock Lesnar… Reeeally!?
[/quote]
Exactly they must have been watching a different fight.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
drewh wrote:
Its basic science really, the more muscular one is the more they need oxygen. Sprinters are great examples of this long vs short track physiques.
Plus Bob Sapp tires out, Sokoudjou tires out etc… all very muscular but they tire out fast. The only reason Brock did not look tired was because all he did was lay and pray.
wrestlers tend to defy basic sport science.[/quote]
i REALLY like this quote
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Somebody work with him on key locks. When he had Randy down, he was doing whatever he wanted with Randy’s arm. There may not be many people that can defend against a key lock from Brock.
Bring in a huge Judo or Greco Roman champion to work with him. He should be able to toss anyone from the clinch, but only seems to like the double-leg.
Someone work with him on his Muay Tie clinch. If he gets the plumb he’s either going to break your jaw or your arms if you try and block his knees.
He should work with one of the Gillinghams here in MN. Get rid of all the machines and start training strongman-style.
[/quote]
He’s working with erik paulson a bit I believe. He’ll get WELL versed in subs. Possibly josh barnett as well which would solve a shiiiiiit load of his ‘weaknesses’.
I agree. I’d love to see his wrestling record but I’m willing to bet this was his bread and butter. Though he kept trying to spear randy through the fence I half expected him to give a shoutout to goldberg for the spear.
He’s working with literally the best in the country on his muay thai clinch- Greg Nelson. He’s easily one of the top 3 coaches in the country. Look up his bio RIDICULOUS.
Imo, don’t try to fix what aint broke.
[quote]
As much as I wanted to think that he wasn’t ready for Randy, I just couldn’t force myself to beleive he was going to lose this fight. I am feeling the same way about the possibility of Nog or Mir. To be frank, I think he would have more problems with Carwin or Gonzaga. Both are better strikers and should be able to defend the takedown reasonably well.
Lesnar is just the start of things to come. As we start to see salaries go up, we will continue to see world-class atheletes come to MMA. MMA still has nowhere near the class of atheletes that other major sports do, but will start to see this change.[/quote]
same. on paper, I really couldn’t see how randy would win. I mean he could have potentially tried to sub him but that would NOT be randy’s strategy (especially from what you could see in videos of his training camp)… of course that implies he could keep him on the ground. he could outwork him and make him gas, but that assumes he WOULD gas or would come in unprepared which was anyone’s guess. No one really knew. If the heath fight was any measure then he’s not getting tired very easily.
Imo if they would have made it out of the 3rd round it was randy’s fight to win. Just based on experience alone. But the problem was the striking.
From the BEGINNING of the fight they were trading one for one. That is NOT something you want to do with a guy who put Rob Kaman’s protege on his ass multiple times with punches he really didn’t put anything on. Randy was on a losing battle the entire time trading one for one with Brock.
Nog can do it, because if Brock has one weakness it’s going to be submissions. Also Nog has considerably better standup than couture. I seriously doubt mir could do that shit again though. I feel that fight was more of a fluke than anything else. He was getting destroyed up until that pt.
Seriously… if you think Gonzaga can do it, then Nog can do it in a round lol. Imo, Brock could take out Gonzaga but it is an interesting matchup. Gonzaga has a damn good chance. He’s not defending the takedown though. he just has the possibility of subbing brock.
the 2011 version of Carwin, definitely. right now I wouldn’t throw him at brock the tatted cock.
All that said I think Fedor would rape him.
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
drewh wrote:
Its basic science really, the more muscular one is the more they need oxygen. Sprinters are great examples of this long vs short track physiques.
Plus Bob Sapp tires out, Sokoudjou tires out etc… all very muscular but they tire out fast. The only reason Brock did not look tired was because all he did was lay and pray.
wrestlers tend to defy basic sport science.
i REALLY like this quote[/quote]
I think it’s an issue of muscle control and being able to switch between muscle groups as they begin to tire.
Fighters like Bob Sapp who rely on brute strength (maximal muscle contraption) alone and lack the ability to pace themselves don’t last very long againt more dynamic and fluid opponents. Their hope is to quickly crush the adversary with overwhelming force, but where the fightgame is at today they don’t stand a snowballs chance in hell to succeed in that manner alone.
[quote]KBCThird wrote:
dhickey wrote:
KBCThird wrote:
Tyrant wrote:
edit: and CLaw, just because your wife is pregnant is no reason to stay with her if you were going to leave her anyway. I’ll never let myself have a marriage that I hate because she got pregnant.
Please, please do not try to justify leaving a pregnant woman for another chick. a) there are far better things to argue about, especially on a mma forum b)if you’re really so uncertain about the relationship that you mey very well be leaving her within the next nine months, knocking her up is probably not a good idea
I was just pissed because the fight got stopped on these stupid flurry punches. I honestly dont believe they were causing much damage. watching the replays about a third didnt land, and none of them were really wound up, just rapid fire from short distance.
Randy was out. He stayed down for awhile.
Randy was responding to punches and moving about to change his defense - that’s why brock switched to the flurry of elbows. He didnt get up either becuase they didnt let him, or because he knew it was over and would do no good, not because he was out cold.[/quote]
This is retarded. go back and watch the fight. Pay attention to Randy’s “defense”.
[quote]otoko wrote:
dhickey wrote:
ProfessorCHAOS96 wrote:
dhickey wrote:
MMA still has nowhere near the class of atheletes that other major sports do, but will start to see this change.
I agree with everything you said, except for that line.
Maybe I should clarify. Not knocking dedication or hardwork. Really just speaking to guys that are genetic freaks like lesnar. MMA doesn’t have the physical specimens or atheletes that the NFL has. Not even close. Especially true in the HW division.
I think you make a good point but I don’t think it is a clear cut issue.
Many NFL players would be considered HWs or at least LHWs. Linebackers, defensive ends, running backs, safeties etc. Cornerbacks and receivers probably not maybe MW and if they cut WW. So I think the impact on lighter classes will not be as great.
Lesnar wrestled. I think the guys in HS would have to pick wrestling instead of going out for football. Will they do that? I think we will se an increase but I don’t think the majority is going to. Or maybe they can train at an mma school on top of HS/college football. Though mma schools have shown to not be cheap.
You also have the issue of there being only one champ per weightclass. Even if pay rises alot in mma you would still have to keep winning and probably be the champ or contender.
Compare that contract pay in the NFL or guaranteed contracts in the NBA. And you don’t have to be the best guy on your team to be paid millions. So I don’t think the lure of mma is going to be THAT strong for these guys. You can still make millions boxing but there are no more American HWs.
Why get paid nillions to be punched in the head when you can get paid millions to play a team sport where you don’t have to be the best player?
This also does not consider other countries. The best athletes in other countries don’t have football to go to. The best brazilian athletes play soccer or I guess do BJJ/mmma.
In ten years or 20 years I kind of feel people will still make the same argument. You cannot know if a guy who decided to wrestle or do mma would not have made a great football player.
Then you might still be left with the same question as to whether mma is getting the best athletes because I don’t think the NFL is going to feel much of an impact as they will always get the best athletes who play football.
[/quote]
It’s really not this complicated.
The best pure atheletes in the world are not (for the most part) in MMA. Where are all the olympic gold medalists in Judo or wrestling? Where are the very best of college wrestling? Why don’t we have more gifted athletes like Lesnar in the HW division? Why don’t we have more gifted atheletes like GSP?
Pro football, hockey, basketball, baseball, soccer, and rugby draw many more gifted atheletes than MMA. Many of the best wrestlers are not in MMA. As the sport grows and the money grows, this will change.