[quote]otoko wrote:
BlackSabbath wrote:
If you are a HW you know you might face the possibility of fighting somebody significantly bigger. Or you could just cut to LHW. Also while there may be big weight differences at HW they for the most part all have the ability to knock each other out. Also height is not as big an issue compared to a LW fighting a LHW(a 50 pound difference). I am aware that mma is different than boxing, my comparison is that the argument is not new and usually is more of a knee jerk reaction. It was Randy who lost to Lesnar. A single fight. It was not entirely surprising for Randy to lose to big, strong fighter(Rodriguez, Barnett). Also many guys who are 230 and under are already cutting to LHW. The other fighters are for the most part over 230 at least. It seems to be a self correcting problem. [/quote]
Indeed, that is what the current HWs face. But they shouldn’t have to. No other class has to face the possibility of an opponent 60lbs heavier. Yes, mainly due to the gloves, they all have knockout capability. The weight comes into play more with grappling, and as rounds go on when two fighters are on opposite ends of the weight spectrum. And no, I personally am not basing this solely on the lesnar/coture bout. I brought it up now as it is relevant.
I am predicting it to become more of an issue once more fighters of Lesnar’s bodytype enter the game. I think it has self corrected in the past because guys like josh and rico are large, but not physical specimens of Lesnars caliber. They were more skill based than physical. Once more Lesnar body types come in and actually reach skill levels comparable to that of coture, fedor, etc, it will become an issue. They have awhile before they can do anything about the class though, as the requisite depth will only be reached with growth in time.
As far as some guys cutting to 205, for vera types with extra fat mass, this is a positive thing. I could even see fedor making 205 without detriment if he wanted to. Compare that though to a guy like Arlovsky. No extra fat mass to lose, 205 would leave him drawn and weak, but still only a middle of the road HW in poundage. I just think that the division of the weight classes should be fairly equal; not like the current trend of all claaes but HW favoring the most skilled fighter, but HW class alone giving the weight too much of an advantage.
[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
It makes plenty of sense
if you knew anything about NCAA wrestling
but your in the midwest, so you should have that covered.
Heavyweight is always the weakest division skill wise and fields fewer athletes then
the other weight classes.
More so when you view the rest of the world’s
heavyweight wrestlers.
Yes he “dominated” and won an NCAA title.
he is a two time NCAA all american
and really he only lost a few times.
so yes he did well.
Its easier to win the NCAA title at heavyweight then other weight classes,
less competition, and less volume.
Lesnar won 105 matches in college
and lost five
most smaller dudes wrestle its allot closer to 200.
Same with MMA how many heavies are their really real ones?
two dozen?
not saying he isnt a freak
kmc
[/quote]
The best HW wrestlers are just that, the best HW wrestlers. That’s his pedigree. How is that hype? Did someone say he was the best P4P wrestler in 2000? No, they say he was the best colligiate HW wrestler in 2000. This argument is silly.
The best HW MMA fighters are just that, the best HW MMA fighters. They are no more or less “real” than any other MMA Fighter. Until someone argues for a HW being the best P4P, there is no argument here.
He was a two-time NJCAA All-American, two-time NCAA All-American, two-time Big Ten Conference Champion, and the 2000 NCAA heavyweight champion with a record of 106-5 overall in four years of college. That means he is the best wrestler in the HW division right now. That’s all people are saying. It’s not hype, it the truth.
I didn’t get a chance to read through all of this, so I’m sure it’s been said.
I like Lesnar, he’s the kind of fighter I will pay to see. I cannot remember the last time a heavyweight fighter has the stuff he seems to have, Tyson maybe? I realize that BJJ is a HUGE part of the MMA, but I yet to see a heavyweight besides Brock that wants to actually come out and beat people up. Everyone talks about it, then they get in the cage and the game changes. The guy is obviously an athlete, trains like hell, and from I’ve seen is likeable and humble. How many guys could beat him up in a bar fight? Not too many. I feel once he gets better at the submission stuff he will be untouchable.
The best HW wrestlers are just that, the best HW wrestlers. That’s his pedigree. How is that hype? Did someone say he was the best P4P wrestler in 2000? No, they say he was the best colligiate HW wrestler in 2000. This argument is silly.
The best HW MMA fighters are just that, the best HW MMA fighters. They are no more or less “real” than any other MMA Fighter. Until someone argues for a HW being the best P4P, there is no argument here.
He was a two-time NJCAA All-American, two-time NCAA All-American, two-time Big Ten Conference Champion, and the 2000 NCAA heavyweight champion with a record of 106-5 overall in four years of college. That means he is the best wrestler in the HW division right now. That’s all people are saying. It’s not hype, it the truth.
[/quote]
I don’t think you’re understanding his point. He is not saying Lesnar was not a great collegiate HW, he is saying that the HW division is typically not as accomplished skill-wise as the lower weight classes. If you’d ever wrestled, you’d know this to be true.
Right. That was pretty obvious. Reading comprehension is not the strong suit of many.
It’s the basic law of human diversity. Heavy weights are a deviation from the norm. So you are going to have fewer heavy weights. Fewer heavies means less competition among heavies.
155 and 170 divisions will always be the most competitive, since most people will fall into that weight range.
Of course, you already know this. And the guys who don’t probably won’t comprehend it.
It just not as big nor does it have the poplulation.
I did far over 200 matches in college-
NJCAA and NCAA d1 and 200 plus is par for the course for any other division.
Brock did half. yes he won 95% of them,
but the competition is weak at heavyweight.
The best HW in the year 2000
was the 1999 champion NCAA Steve Neal
who won the US, Pan Am and world freestyle titles at 286
Now he plays for the patriots.
but if you follow wrestling you would get that.
Its easier to be the best at heavyweight
less competition.
It just not as big nor does it have the poplulation.
I did far over 200 matches in college-
NJCAA and NCAA d1 and 200 plus is par for the course for any other division.
The best HW in the year 2000
was the 1999 NCAA Steve Neal
who won the US, Pan Am and world freestyle titles at 286.
Now he plays for the patriots.
but if you follow wrestling you would get that.
The best HW wrestlers are just that, the best HW wrestlers. That’s his pedigree. How is that hype? Did someone say he was the best P4P wrestler in 2000? No, they say he was the best colligiate HW wrestler in 2000. This argument is silly.
The best HW MMA fighters are just that, the best HW MMA fighters. They are no more or less “real” than any other MMA Fighter. Until someone argues for a HW being the best P4P, there is no argument here.
He was a two-time NJCAA All-American, two-time NCAA All-American, two-time Big Ten Conference Champion, and the 2000 NCAA heavyweight champion with a record of 106-5 overall in four years of college. That means he is the best wrestler in the HW division right now. That’s all people are saying. It’s not hype, it the truth.
I don’t think you’re understanding his point. He is not saying Lesnar was not a great collegiate HW, he is saying that the HW division is typically not as accomplished skill-wise as the lower weight classes. If you’d ever wrestled, you’d know this to be true. [/quote]
I did wrestle. Every weight class from 135 in 8th grade to 189 as a senior. He said Brock’s wrestling pedigree is overhyped. I said he is exactly what everyone says he is. a two-time NJCAA All-American, two-time NCAA All-American, two-time Big Ten Conference Champion, and the 2000 NCAA heavyweight champion with a record of 106-5 overall in four years of college. How is that overhyped?
Great avatar but reading comprehension needs some work.
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
slimjim wrote: I don’t think you’re understanding his point. He is not saying Lesnar was not a great collegiate HW, he is saying that the HW division is typically not as accomplished skill-wise as the lower weight classes. If you’d ever wrestled, you’d know this to be true.
Right. That was pretty obvious. Reading comprehension is not the strong suit of many.
It’s the basic law of human diversity. Heavy weights are a deviation from the norm. So you are going to have fewer heavy weights. Fewer heavies means less competition among heavies.
155 and 170 divisions will always be the most competitive, since most people will fall into that weight range.
Of course, you already know this. And the guys who don’t probably won’t comprehend it. [/quote]
An those with lacking in any kind of logic will not recognize how this is completely irrelavent to the statement that Brock’s wrestling is overhyped. Good job.
It just not as big nor does it have the poplulation.
I did far over 200 matches in college-
NJCAA and NCAA d1 and 200 plus is par for the course for any other division.
Brock did half. yes he won 95% of them,
but the competition is weak at heavyweight.
The best HW in the year 2000
was the 1999 champion NCAA Steve Neal
who won the US, Pan Am and world freestyle titles at 286
Now he plays for the patriots.
but if you follow wrestling you would get that.
kmc
[/quote]
Jesus christ, go read your post that I was commenting on. You are proving to be a pretty dim one.
Who said he was the best wrestler in 2000? Or even the best HW. You said he was overhyped. I said he is exactly what people say he is. Why is this so complicated for some of you to understand? Amazing.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
kmcnyc wrote:
Thanks Slim and C-law,
and Dhickey your still missing the point.
Its easier to be the best at heavyweight
less competition.
It just not as big nor does it have the poplulation.
I did far over 200 matches in college-
NJCAA and NCAA d1 and 200 plus is par for the course for any other division.
The best HW in the year 2000
was the 1999 NCAA Steve Neal
who won the US, Pan Am and world freestyle titles at 286.
Now he plays for the patriots.
but if you follow wrestling you would get that.
Kurt Angle won the NCAA hvwt title 2x at 208 pounds, as well as the Olympic gold medal.
Size helps, but its not everything.
I once read that the best heavyweight boxer on the planet is playing defensive end or tight end in the NFL. I’d say that holds true for the best MMA fighter as well.
A point I tried to make earlier, but some are not quite able to comprehend this. Something about sprinters not being able to run marathons got us off topic.
All sports complete for the genetically gifted. MMA being more popular and more profitable will get it a larger share of these atheletes. Not terribly complicated.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
All sports complete for the genetically gifted. MMA being more popular and more profitable will get it a larger share of these atheletes. Not terribly complicated.[/quote]
Yup. Right now the top echelon of MMA is composed almost exclusively of brazilians, weird white guys and ex-wrestlers who still want to compete.
What really irks me is everyone assuming he is going to hang it up after this. Even Joe Rogan asks him if he is going to fight again, right after the fight.
Randy looked really good in this fight and would be a handfull for anyone at HW or 205. He is still one of the best fighters at either weight class and I hope we get to see him fight a bunch more fights. I can’t think of anyone else he wouldn’t have a very good chance at beating. What did people see in this fight that made them think he can’t complete anymore? He’s handling these stupid questions far better than I would.
Not to mention he is getting the money he was looking for, continued pay per view percentage, and he’s still a huge draw. Dude looked as good as ever before the hit. They’ll probably put him against the loser of Mir/Nog while having the winner fight Lesnar. I don’t see Coture needing or wanting to waste his time with tune up fights.
