Ufc 110

[ZEB]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
the huge strength advantage that Lesnar had in the last fight didn’t play an important role in his domination of Mir is kidding themselves.

[/quote]

I don’t want to revive our old argument that took us 5 or 6 pages to have but you’ve really got that wrong. It was his wrestling ability which caused him to control Mir on the ground, that’s what wrestlers do. Take Matt Hughes for example, yes he was (and is) a strong guy, when he was champion he controlled many people on the ground who were as strong or stronger than him. The same goes for Randy Couture as he too has the ability to control people on the ground, because of skill not strength. GSP, who learned wrestling later in life none the less controls his opponents on the ground because of his new found grappling skill. He was certainly not stronger than Alves, yet controlled him on the ground. Surely a wrestler of Lesnars caliber which is better than Hughes, GSP and most of the others can control people on the ground with SKILL.

I usually don’t disagree with many of your posts, but I don’t think you give wrestlers the credit that they deserve when it comes to their ability to get people on the ground and control them. When you add that to your extreme dislike of Brock Lesnar, well you have a real blind spot.
[/quote]

Yes, his wrestling ability played a big role. But it was his strength which allowed him to manipulate Mir into that tie up position at will and hold him there helpless.[/quote]

Wow, Sentoguy, you are just never going to understand wrestling are you? I’ve given you a multitude of examples of wrestlers who were equal in strength to their opponent or even at a stength disadvantage yet held their opponent helpless on the ground. But for some reason you just can’t get over the whole Brock Lesnar is big thing can you? I’ll just have to chalk this up to a wrestling/Lesnar blind spot that you have.

I understand wrestling just fine. [/quote]

I don’t think you do otherwise you wouldn’t be talking about Mir being able to fend off Lesnar’s ground and poung because he (Mir) has gain some muscle. People who are Knowledgable about wrestling don’t talk that way, they know better.

[quote]You on the other hand seem unwilling to admit that Brock’s huge size/strength advantage is one of the reasons he is such a dominant fighter/wrestler. What’s the first thing that Randy said after losing to him?[quote]

Wrong, I’ve already said it’s better to be big and strong than small and weak. No brainer my friend. That’s when I gave you all of the examples of wrestlers who don’t have Brocks size advantage but still do the same thing on the ground.

Hard one for you to explain I know.

Randy: “That’s one big sumbitch”

You mean Randy the LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT? That Randy? Yea, I heard him say that.

[quote]How about Mir’s thoughts about why he lost?

Mir: “I think 245 was a good weight as far as maybe everybody else in the heavyweight division, but fighting Brock, there was too much of a size difference, due to the fact that he had great technique also.”

"It wasn’t just because of his size that he was able to nullify my technique, but he used his size.[/quote]

Yes, Mir thought that it was size, his answer to that notion was to go out and hire a first rate strength trainer and gain some muscle. But, how many world class wrestlers has Mir fought other than Lesnar? Answer that one for me.

Mir is mistaken. His new found strength is a good thing and I wish him well with it, but world class wrestlers who have trained mma will still pound him senseless, regardless of his size or strength.

(Psst, it’s what wrestlers do)

That’s pretty much exactly what I’ve been saying, straight from the horses mouth(s).

Yes, you have been saying that from the very beginning, you are consistent, and you and Mir are both wrong.

I’m not disregarding his skill, he’s definitely got wrestling skills. But to disregard the strength/size factor makes you sound like one of those people who drank the “koolaid” and believes that size/strength doesn’t matter at all, that the winner is always the one with better technique; which just isn’t the case.

You don’t have to answer any other comment on this post. Just the following:

How do (or did) the following mma fighters with world class wrestling skills hold down their opponents without being physically domiant over all of them:

Matt Hughes, GSP, Randy Couture, Dan Henderson, Matt Lindland, Sean Sherk, hey wait why don’t you just tell me why Nate Marquardt a very strong guy for his weight class was mauled by chael Sonnen? You know the answer don’t you? A physically weaker man held down a very good mma fighter in Nate Marquardt, because of one thing WRESTLING ABILITY. You think more muscle would have helped Nate win the fight? No way.

Exactly what I’ve been saying? That there had better be a huge skill disparity if there is a huge size disparity. The closer the two fighters are in skill, the more the size/strength factor will play a role.[/quote]

But Mir is a Jiu-Jitsu expert, right? I guess he’s not skillful enough, but neither was Marquardt, but wait Marquardt is a highly skilled mma fighter, now how did he get mauled again? It wasn’t brute force, must have been wrestling SKILL

If we took your wrestling example and made them both world class wrestlers, one weighing 200 lbs and one weighing 300 lbs, who would your money be on then? Why? Exactly. Because of the size/strength advantage that the 300 lb guy would have. That’s why there are weight classes in all combat sports.

Wow Sento, we’re not having this conversation are we? This is something you talk about with traditional martial arts guys who think their 150 pound instructor would beat up Randy Couture in a street fight. Please, knock it off. No one who knows anything would ever say that size and strength are not better to have than not.

This is the argument: Was it Lesnars size and strength that caused him to dominate Mir. The answer is clearly NO.

The proof:

The many wrestlers (like Sonnen and the others I listed) who have dominated their opponents while giving up strength.

Also, Lesnar is an NCAA Division One champion who beat other guys his size on a regular basis. Know why?

HE’S A REALLY GOOD WRESTLER!

But we aren’t talking about someone with world class skill vs someone with absolutely no skill. Mir is a BJJ black belt and very dangerous submission guy who is well versed in grappling.

And he lost to a guy who is better on the ground. At least better at controlling him and punching him while controlling him. Hey, those are really good skills to have in mma huh?

[quote] His loss wasn’t simply due to him not being skilled or unfamiliar with grappling.

I agree, but his loss was due to his vastly inferior wrestling ability. Really good wrestlers can control really good BJJ men. Penn vs GSP, Penn VS Hughes. There are other examples but honestly you are on this Lesnar is SOOOOOO BIGGGGGG kick that there isn’t any amount of examples that I can give as you will just ignore them and rant on about how big Lesnar is.

[ZEB]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Zeb wrote
the huge strength advantage that Lesnar had in the last fight didn’t play an important role in his domination of Mir is kidding themselves.

[/quote]

I don’t want to revive our old argument that took us 5 or 6 pages to have but you’ve really got that wrong. It was his wrestling ability which caused him to control Mir on the ground, that’s what wrestlers do. Take Matt Hughes for example, yes he was (and is) a strong guy, when he was champion he controlled many people on the ground who were as strong or stronger than him. The same goes for Randy Couture as he too has the ability to control people on the ground, because of skill not strength. GSP, who learned wrestling later in life none the less controls his opponents on the ground because of his new found grappling skill. He was certainly not stronger than Alves, yet controlled him on the ground. Surely a wrestler of Lesnars caliber which is better than Hughes, GSP and most of the others can control people on the ground with SKILL.

I usually don’t disagree with many of your posts, but I don’t think you give wrestlers the credit that they deserve when it comes to their ability to get people on the ground and control them. When you add that to your extreme dislike of Brock Lesnar, well you have a real blind spot.
[/quote]

Yes, his wrestling ability played a big role. But it was his strength which allowed him to manipulate Mir into that tie up position at will and hold him there helpless.[/quote]

Wow, Sentoguy, you are just never going to understand wrestling are you? I’ve given you a multitude of examples of wrestlers who were equal in strength to their opponent or even at a stength disadvantage yet held their opponent helpless on the ground. But for some reason you just can’t get over the whole Brock Lesnar is big thing can you? I’ll just have to chalk this up to a wrestling/Lesnar blind spot that you have.

I understand wrestling just fine. [/quote]

I don’t think you do otherwise you wouldn’t be talking about Mir being able to fend off Lesnar’s ground and poung because he (Mir) has gain some muscle. People who are Knowledgable about wrestling don’t talk that way, they know better.

[quote]You on the other hand seem unwilling to admit that Brock’s huge size/strength advantage is one of the reasons he is such a dominant fighter/wrestler. What’s the first thing that Randy said after losing to him?[quote]

Wrong, I’ve already said it’s better to be big and strong than small and weak. No brainer my friend. That’s when I gave you all of the examples of wrestlers who don’t have Brocks size advantage but still do the same thing on the ground.

Hard one for you to explain I know.

Randy: “That’s one big sumbitch”

You mean Randy the LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT? That Randy? Yea, I heard him say that.

[quote]How about Mir’s thoughts about why he lost?

Mir: “I think 245 was a good weight as far as maybe everybody else in the heavyweight division, but fighting Brock, there was too much of a size difference, due to the fact that he had great technique also.”

"It wasn’t just because of his size that he was able to nullify my technique, but he used his size.[/quote]

Yes, Mir thought that it was size, his answer to that notion was to go out and hire a first rate strength trainer and gain some muscle. But, how many world class wrestlers has Mir fought other than Lesnar? Answer that one for me.

Mir is mistaken. His new found strength is a good thing and I wish him well with it, but world class wrestlers who have trained mma will still pound him senseless, regardless of his size or strength.

(Psst, it’s what wrestlers do)

That’s pretty much exactly what I’ve been saying, straight from the horses mouth(s).

Yes, you have been saying that from the very beginning, you are consistent, and you and Mir are both wrong.

I’m not disregarding his skill, he’s definitely got wrestling skills. But to disregard the strength/size factor makes you sound like one of those people who drank the “koolaid” and believes that size/strength doesn’t matter at all, that the winner is always the one with better technique; which just isn’t the case.

You don’t have to answer any other comment on this post. Just the following:

How do (or did) the following mma fighters with world class wrestling skills hold down their opponents without being physically domiant over all of them:

Matt Hughes, GSP, Randy Couture, Dan Henderson, Matt Lindland, Sean Sherk, hey wait why don’t you just tell me why Nate Marquardt a very strong guy for his weight class was mauled by chael Sonnen? You know the answer don’t you? A physically weaker man held down a very good mma fighter in Nate Marquardt, because of one thing WRESTLING ABILITY. You think more muscle would have helped Nate win the fight? No way.

Exactly what I’ve been saying? That there had better be a huge skill disparity if there is a huge size disparity. The closer the two fighters are in skill, the more the size/strength factor will play a role.[/quote]

But Mir is a Jiu-Jitsu expert, right? I guess he’s not skillful enough, but neither was Marquardt, but wait Marquardt is a highly skilled mma fighter, now how did he get mauled again? It wasn’t brute force, must have been wrestling SKILL

If we took your wrestling example and made them both world class wrestlers, one weighing 200 lbs and one weighing 300 lbs, who would your money be on then? Why? Exactly. Because of the size/strength advantage that the 300 lb guy would have. That’s why there are weight classes in all combat sports.

Wow Sento, we’re not having this conversation are we? This is something you talk about with traditional martial arts guys who think their 150 pound instructor would beat up Randy Couture in a street fight. Please, knock it off. No one who knows anything would ever say that size and strength are not better to have than not.

This is the argument: Was it Lesnars size and strength that caused him to dominate Mir. The answer is clearly NO.

The proof:

The many wrestlers (like Sonnen and the others I listed) who have dominated their opponents while giving up strength.

Also, Lesnar is an NCAA Division One champion who beat other guys his size on a regular basis. Know why?

HE’S A REALLY GOOD WRESTLER!

But we aren’t talking about someone with world class skill vs someone with absolutely no skill. Mir is a BJJ black belt and very dangerous submission guy who is well versed in grappling.

And he lost to a guy who is better on the ground. At least better at controlling him and punching him while controlling him. Hey, those are really good skills to have in mma huh?

[quote] His loss wasn’t simply due to him not being skilled or unfamiliar with grappling.

I agree, but his loss was due to his vastly inferior wrestling ability. Really good wrestlers can control really good BJJ men. Penn vs GSP, Penn VS Hughes. There are other examples but honestly you are on this Lesnar is SOOOOOO BIGGGGGG kick that there isn’t any amount of examples that I can give as you will just ignore them and rant on about how big Lesnar is.

[ZEB]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Zeb wrote
the huge strength advantage that Lesnar had in the last fight didn’t play an important role in his domination of Mir is kidding themselves.

[/quote]

I don’t want to revive our old argument that took us 5 or 6 pages to have but you’ve really got that wrong. It was his wrestling ability which caused him to control Mir on the ground, that’s what wrestlers do. Take Matt Hughes for example, yes he was (and is) a strong guy, when he was champion he controlled many people on the ground who were as strong or stronger than him. The same goes for Randy Couture as he too has the ability to control people on the ground, because of skill not strength. GSP, who learned wrestling later in life none the less controls his opponents on the ground because of his new found grappling skill. He was certainly not stronger than Alves, yet controlled him on the ground. Surely a wrestler of Lesnars caliber which is better than Hughes, GSP and most of the others can control people on the ground with SKILL.

I usually don’t disagree with many of your posts, but I don’t think you give wrestlers the credit that they deserve when it comes to their ability to get people on the ground and control them. When you add that to your extreme dislike of Brock Lesnar, well you have a real blind spot.
[/quote]

Yes, his wrestling ability played a big role. But it was his strength which allowed him to manipulate Mir into that tie up position at will and hold him there helpless.[/quote]

Wow, Sentoguy, you are just never going to understand wrestling are you? I’ve given you a multitude of examples of wrestlers who were equal in strength to their opponent or even at a stength disadvantage yet held their opponent helpless on the ground. But for some reason you just can’t get over the whole Brock Lesnar is big thing can you? I’ll just have to chalk this up to a wrestling/Lesnar blind spot that you have.

I understand wrestling just fine. [/quote]

I don’t think you do otherwise you wouldn’t be talking about Mir being able to fend off Lesnar’s ground and poung because he (Mir) has gain some muscle. People who are Knowledgable about wrestling don’t talk that way, they know better.

[quote]You on the other hand seem unwilling to admit that Brock’s huge size/strength advantage is one of the reasons he is such a dominant fighter/wrestler. What’s the first thing that Randy said after losing to him?[quote]

Wrong, I’ve already said it’s better to be big and strong than small and weak. No brainer my friend. That’s when I gave you all of the examples of wrestlers who don’t have Brocks size advantage but still do the same thing on the ground.

Hard one for you to explain I know.

Randy: “That’s one big sumbitch”

You mean Randy the LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT? That Randy? Yea, I heard him say that.

[quote]How about Mir’s thoughts about why he lost?

Mir: “I think 245 was a good weight as far as maybe everybody else in the heavyweight division, but fighting Brock, there was too much of a size difference, due to the fact that he had great technique also.”

"It wasn’t just because of his size that he was able to nullify my technique, but he used his size.[/quote]

Yes, Mir thought that it was size, his answer to that notion was to go out and hire a first rate strength trainer and gain some muscle. But, how many world class wrestlers has Mir fought other than Lesnar? Answer that one for me.

Mir is mistaken. His new found strength is a good thing and I wish him well with it, but world class wrestlers who have trained mma will still pound him senseless, regardless of his size or strength.

(Psst, it’s what wrestlers do)

That’s pretty much exactly what I’ve been saying, straight from the horses mouth(s).

Yes, you have been saying that from the very beginning, you are consistent, and you and Mir are both wrong.

I’m not disregarding his skill, he’s definitely got wrestling skills. But to disregard the strength/size factor makes you sound like one of those people who drank the “koolaid” and believes that size/strength doesn’t matter at all, that the winner is always the one with better technique; which just isn’t the case.

You don’t have to answer any other comment on this post. Just the following:

How do (or did) the following mma fighters with world class wrestling skills hold down their opponents without being physically domiant over all of them:

Matt Hughes, GSP, Randy Couture, Dan Henderson, Matt Lindland, Sean Sherk, hey wait why don’t you just tell me why Nate Marquardt a very strong guy for his weight class was mauled by chael Sonnen? You know the answer don’t you? A physically weaker man held down a very good mma fighter in Nate Marquardt, because of one thing WRESTLING ABILITY. You think more muscle would have helped Nate win the fight? No way.

Exactly what I’ve been saying? That there had better be a huge skill disparity if there is a huge size disparity. The closer the two fighters are in skill, the more the size/strength factor will play a role.[/quote]

But Mir is a Jiu-Jitsu expert, right? I guess he’s not skillful enough, but neither was Marquardt, but wait Marquardt is a highly skilled mma fighter, now how did he get mauled again? It wasn’t brute force, must have been wrestling SKILL

If we took your wrestling example and made them both world class wrestlers, one weighing 200 lbs and one weighing 300 lbs, who would your money be on then? Why? Exactly. Because of the size/strength advantage that the 300 lb guy would have. That’s why there are weight classes in all combat sports.

Wow Sento, we’re not having this conversation are we? This is something you talk about with traditional martial arts guys who think their 150 pound instructor would beat up Randy Couture in a street fight. Please, knock it off. No one who knows anything would ever say that size and strength are not better to have than not.

This is the argument: Was it Lesnars size and strength that caused him to dominate Mir. The answer is clearly NO.

The proof:

The many wrestlers (like Sonnen and the others I listed) who have dominated their opponents while giving up strength.

Also, Lesnar is an NCAA Division One champion who beat other guys his size on a regular basis. Know why?

HE’S A REALLY GOOD WRESTLER!

But we aren’t talking about someone with world class skill vs someone with absolutely no skill. Mir is a BJJ black belt and very dangerous submission guy who is well versed in grappling.

And he lost to a guy who is better on the ground. At least better at controlling him and punching him while controlling him. Hey, those are really good skills to have in mma huh?

[quote] His loss wasn’t simply due to him not being skilled or unfamiliar with grappling.

I agree, but his loss was due to his vastly inferior wrestling ability. Really good wrestlers can control really good BJJ men. Penn vs GSP, Penn VS Hughes. There are other examples but honestly you are on this Lesnar is SOOOOOO BIGGGGGG kick that there isn’t any amount of examples that I can give as you will just ignore them and rant on about how big Lesnar is.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]drewh wrote:
That isn’t true Nick DIaz would not be the same fighter if he was stronger, neither would Demian Maia or a Shinya Aoki. For some styles strength isn’t key.[/quote]

People tend to try to do the best with what they’ve been given. Smaller, less physically gifted people tend to become very technically proficient (at least the ones who stick with it and reach a high level) in an attempt to make up for their lack of physical gifts. Females who regularly train with men tend to be the same way; no chance of matching up physically, so they tend to try to become ultra technical and outlast their opponents (fatigue can drastically reduce strength and act as an equalizer).

That doesn’t mean that if you somehow were able to give someone like Demian Maia, Brock Lesnar’s strength, that he wouldn’t be an even more effective grappler. Strength (and physical superiority in general) is but one of many advantages when it comes to combat, and it is always an advantage, regardless of the style used. It doesn’t always determine the winner, but it definitely never hurt anyone’s ability to win either, and has played a role in victory on many occasions.

[drewh]

But that has never happened now has it, there will never be a Demian Maia with Lesnar strength, hopefully I’m getting my point across.

[ZEB]

Sento,

I’m sure you saw Chel Sonnen control Nate Marquardt on the ground and win the fight easily. Was it Sonnen’s size and muscularity? No, it was his wrestling ability. Marquardt certainly has the physique, but it didn’t matter did it?

Sure size and strength are great but there are plenty of large guys like Bob Sapp who get controlled on the ground by good wrestlers like Bob Lashley. There are many, many examples of high quality wrestlers controlling opponents on the ground who are stronger, and or larger.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]drewh wrote:
But that has never happened now has it, there will never be a Demian Maia with Lesnar strength, hopefully I’m getting my point across.[/quote]

Alexander Karelin.

No, he wasn’t a submission grappler, but the guy had amazing technique and was an absolute freak athlete (ridiculously strong, great conditioning, great flexibility, great ability, great speed, etc…). You don’t go through your entire career (losing his last match on a technicality) in international competition unbeaten, or your last 6 years of international competition without giving up a single point without having some world class technique. And you don’t have a technique named after you because nobody else in your weight division is capable of pulling it off without having some prodigious strength.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I’m sure you saw Chel Sonnen control Nate Marquardt on the ground and win the fight easily. Was it Sonnen’s size and muscularity? No, it was his wrestling ability. Marquardt certainly has the physique, but it didn’t matter did it?
[/quote]

Sonnen basically stayed in Marquardt’s guard the whole fight. Yeah, he landed a few good shots, but Marquardt was able to avoid taking all that much damage, keep him in his guard, and was even able to sweep Sonnen at the end of the third round and threaten for a submission win (not all that close though).

That’s hardly comparable to being manhandled into a tie up position and having your face pounded on repeatedly without being able to do anything about it.

Sure size and strength are great but there are plenty of large guys like Bob Sapp who get controlled on the ground by good wrestlers like Bob Lashley. There are many, many examples of high quality wrestlers controlling opponents on the ground who are stronger, and or larger.

I won’t argue with that. Wrestlers are great at gaining and maintaining superior position on the ground.

But, last time I checked, Sapp wasn’t renowned for his grappling ability, nor was he considered one of the most dangerous submission guys in the heavyweight division like Mir is. So, that’s not really a great comparison between what Lashley did to Sapp and what Lesnar did to Mir.

[Aussie_Davo]

Bob Sapp? Come on, the guy is the biggest running joke in mixed martial arts. He wins by merit of swarming inexperienced fighters, as you can see from his record, against any competent fighter, he gets his ass kicked.

Dude is a sideshow IMO.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Bob Sapp? Come on, the guy is the biggest running joke in mixed martial arts. He wins by merit of swarming inexperienced fighters, as you can see from his record, against any competent fighter, he gets his ass kicked.

Dude is a sideshow IMO.[/quote]

Agreed. Not really a fair comparison to Mir, who has beaten some notable HW’s.

[ZEB]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I’m sure you saw Chel Sonnen control Nate Marquardt on the ground and win the fight easily. Was it Sonnen’s size and muscularity? No, it was his wrestling ability. Marquardt certainly has the physique, but it didn’t matter did it?

Sonnen basically stayed in Marquardt’s guard the whole fight. Yeah, he landed a few good shots, but Marquardt was able to avoid taking all that much damage, keep him in his guard, and was even able to sweep Sonnen at the end of the third round and threaten for a submission win (not all that close though).[/quote]

Marquardt was the stronger and more muscular fighter yet was controlled by Sonnen for about 95% of the fight. Sonnen even passed his guard a few times. Basically, he threw Marquardt around because of his (Sonnen) superior wrestling ability. That’s what Brock Lesnar has in spades my friend and Mir can gain an additional 30 pounds of muscle (if he’s able) and it won’t make a difference.

If Mir wants to improve he needs to do what GSP did. There’s a fighter who has my respect. Hughes owned him on the ground and what did he do? He trained with the Canadian Olympic Wrestling team until he actually became a better wrestler than Hughes. Think about that Hughes was a top 10 Division One Wrestler and GSP beat him at his own game.

That’s hardly comparable to being manhandled into a tie up position

Lesnar’s win was bigger than Sonnen’s no question, but it’s the same idea. Both dominated their opponents because of wrestling skill.

[quote]
Sure size and strength are great but there are plenty of large guys like Bob Sapp who get controlled on the ground by good wrestlers like Bob Lashley. There are many, many examples of high quality wrestlers controlling opponents on the ground who are stronger, and or larger.

I won’t argue with that. Wrestlers are great at gaining and maintaining superior position on the ground.

But, last time I checked, Sapp wasn’t renowned for his grappling ability, nor was he considered one of the most dangerous submission guys in the heavyweight division like Mir is. So, that’s not really a great comparison between what Lashley did to Sapp and what Lesnar did to Mir.[/quote]

The comparison was not Sapp to Mir relative to the ground game. The comparison was Sapp to Lesnar in that they are both large powerful men. The difference is Lesnar is an excellent wrestler and Sapp is not. Therefore, Sapp can get controlled on the ground by a good wrestler even though no one is bigger or stronger than Bob Sapp.

I am very curious to see how Mir fights Carwin. With Carwin you not only have a top notch wrestler but you’ve also got a fighter who has lethal hands. If Mir beats Carwin, and depending upon how he beats Carwin, I’d say he’s actually learned something from his tremendous beating at the hands of Brock Lesnar. I think this is the most exciting fight on the near horizon.

By the way I have nothing but respect for Frank Mir, he’s tough determined and there isn’t an ounce of quit in him.

[ZEB]

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Bob Sapp? Come on, the guy is the biggest running joke in mixed martial arts. He wins by merit of swarming inexperienced fighters, as you can see from his record, against any competent fighter, he gets his ass kicked.

Dude is a sideshow IMO.[/quote]

Right, and that’s why I mentioned him. If size were the primary determining factor Sapp would be a world champion. But, as we know size doesn’t win fights, skill does.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I’m sure you saw Chel Sonnen control Nate Marquardt on the ground and win the fight easily. Was it Sonnen’s size and muscularity? No, it was his wrestling ability. Marquardt certainly has the physique, but it didn’t matter did it?

Sonnen basically stayed in Marquardt’s guard the whole fight. Yeah, he landed a few good shots, but Marquardt was able to avoid taking all that much damage, keep him in his guard, and was even able to sweep Sonnen at the end of the third round and threaten for a submission win (not all that close though).[/quote]

Marquardt was the stronger and more muscular fighter yet was controlled by Sonnen for about 95% of the fight. Sonnen even passed his guard a few times. Basically, he threw Marquardt around because of his (Sonnen) superior wrestling ability. That’s what Brock Lesnar has in spades my friend and Mir can gain an additional 30 pounds of muscle (if he’s able) and it won’t make a difference.
[/quote]

What makes you think that Marquardt was the stronger of the two fighters? Sonnen was clearly the naturally larger of the two and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he were stronger than Nate.

Sonnen did pass Nate’s guard a few times, but Nate was always able to regain it. Sonnen was not able to hold Nate down helpless like Lesnar did to Mir. He is the superior wrestler, no argument there, and was able to keep Nate on his back for most of the fight, but he didn’t manhandle him. That’s the difference between what Lesnar did to Mir and what Sonnen did to Marquardt.

And it may not make a difference in terms of Mir beating Lesnar, but the added 30 lbs of muscle and strength are going to make a difference in terms of him being able to avoid being manhandled like he was the first time. And while I still think that Lesnar would have won their last fight, I don’t think Brock would have been able to beat him as easily as he did.

Why you still refuse to admit this I don’t know. If size/strength don’t matter, then why are there weight classes in wrestling/submission grappling/combat sports?

If Mir wants to improve he needs to do what GSP did. There’s a fighter who has my respect. Hughes owned him on the ground and what did he do? He trained with the Canadian Olympic Wrestling team until he actually became a better wrestler than Hughes. Think about that Hughes was a top 10 Division One Wrestler and GSP beat him at his own game.

No argument, Mir needs to bring his wrestling ability up. But you seem to either underestimate, or have no respect for the fact that he is already a high level Jiu-jitsu guy, so he knows what he’s doing on the ground. With the added size/strength, I actually think that the two guys are a lot closer in terms of grappling skill than you are making them out to be. Lesnar is of course the better wrestler, but Mir is the better submission guy and is certainly no slouch when it comes to the ground.

We’ll have to see how/if Mir’s strength does indeed make a difference. Until they fight it’s all speculation on our part.

[quote]That’s hardly comparable to being manhandled into a tie up position

Lesnar’s win was bigger than Sonnen’s no question, but it’s the same idea. Both dominated their opponents because of wrestling skill.
[/quote]

True. It’s just that Lesnar manhandled Mir, while Sonnen did not manhandle Marquardt. Mir also felt that Lesnar’s superior size/strength had enough of an impact in the fight to mention them in regards to reasons why Lesnar beat him (along with mentioning his great technique). Marquardt made no such mention when it came to Sonnen and only acknowledged his wrestling skill (as well as Nate having fought a bad fight).

The comparison was not Sapp to Mir relative to the ground game. The comparison was Sapp to Lesnar in that they are both large powerful men. The difference is Lesnar is an excellent wrestler and Sapp is not. Therefore, Sapp can get controlled on the ground by a good wrestler even though no one is bigger or stronger than Bob Sapp.

But you’re comparing someone who is only big and strong and has pretty much novice level grappling skill to someone who is big, strong, and a high level of grappling skill. That’s not a good comparison. I have never once said that someone with zero skill but lots of attributes is going to win a world title.

It’s not a this or that argument on my part, it’s a this and that argument. Without Lesnar’s skill he probably would not have beat Mir, and without his size/strength advantage he may not have beat Mir either. I guess we’ll see when/if they meet next time.

I am very curious to see how Mir fights Carwin. With Carwin you not only have a top notch wrestler but you’ve also got a fighter who has lethal hands. If Mir beats Carwin, and depending upon how he beats Carwin, I’d say he’s actually learned something from his tremendous beating at the hands of Brock Lesnar. I think this is the most exciting fight on the near horizon.

Agreed. I’m excited to see this fight as well as it should tell us something about both fighters’ skills.

By the way I have nothing but respect for Frank Mir, he’s tough determined and there isn’t an ounce of quit in him.

True. But man, he didn’t do himself any favors with those comments about wanting to break Brock’s neck and watch him die in the ring. I mean I understand trying to hype a fight with bad blood and all, but there is a line you just don’t cross.

[drewh]

I’m praying Carwin will lose just to shut you up. What’s the excuse going to be when Mir gets KO’d by Carwin.

[Sentoguy]

[quote]drewh wrote:
I’m praying Carwin will lose just to shut you up. What’s the excuse going to be when Mir gets KO’d by Carwin. [/quote]

Well, you can wish in one hand and crap in the other, and see which gets full first.

[kmcnyc]

Rickson by armbar

[ZEB]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I’m sure you saw Chel Sonnen control Nate Marquardt on the ground and win the fight easily. Was it Sonnen’s size and muscularity? No, it was his wrestling ability. Marquardt certainly has the physique, but it didn’t matter did it?

Sonnen basically stayed in Marquardt’s guard the whole fight. Yeah, he landed a few good shots, but Marquardt was able to avoid taking all that much damage, keep him in his guard, and was even able to sweep Sonnen at the end of the third round and threaten for a submission win (not all that close though).[/quote]

Marquardt was the stronger and more muscular fighter yet was controlled by Sonnen for about 95% of the fight. Sonnen even passed his guard a few times. Basically, he threw Marquardt around because of his (Sonnen) superior wrestling ability. That’s what Brock Lesnar has in spades my friend and Mir can gain an additional 30 pounds of muscle (if he’s able) and it won’t make a difference.

What makes you think that Marquardt was the stronger of the two fighters? Sonnen was clearly the naturally larger of the two and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he were stronger than Nate.[/quote]

You took the word of Mir, so I thought I’d take the word of Marquardt:

“Physically I’m stronger, better and faster.”

Nate Marquardt

(Taken from adcombat.com)

Even if they were the same size and strength (and I do believe that Marquardt was obviously the physically stronger specimen of the two) Sonnen controlled him with wrestling.

Sonnen did pass Nate’s guard a few times, but Nate was always able to regain it. Sonnen was not able to hold Nate down helpless like Lesnar did to Mir. He is the superior wrestler, no argument there, and was able to keep Nate on his back for most of the fight, but he didn’t manhandle him. That’s the difference between what Lesnar did to Mir and what Sonnen did to Marquardt.

What fight were you watching? It was never even close, ever. The only highlight for Nate was the elbow and the one reversal, big deal. Sonnen owned him other than that. How did he do this? WRESTLING SKILL.

And it may not make a difference in terms of Mir beating Lesnar, but the added 30 lbs of muscle and strength are going to make a difference in terms of him being able to avoid being manhandled like he was the first time.

You’re saying that someone who does not improve in wrestling will be able to fend off an exceptional wrestler who has already demonstrated his ability on that person, just by gaining 30 pounds of muscle. You are completely wrong. As I’ve already told you, Mir would have to do what GSP did, that is improve in wrestling. If Mir does that to the same degree that GSP did then he will put in a better performance, other than that no chance. The muscle won’t help much in this case.

If size/strength don’t matter, then why are there weight classes in wrestling/submission grappling/combat sports?

I never said that they don’t matter, they matter a great deal. However, when someone is able to take you down and controll you gaining 20-30 pounds of muscle will not prevent that. This is only logical. As I said you must improve your wrestling game just as GSP did.

[quote]
No argument, Mir needs to bring his wrestling ability up. But you seem to either underestimate, or have no respect for the fact that he is already a high level Jiu-jitsu guy, so he knows what he’s doing on the ground.[/quote]

Okay, here is your weakness. I’m not talking about people who can work on the ground. There is a distinct difference between a BB in Jiu-Jitsu and a wrestler. If the wrestler knows how to avoid getting caught in a submission then all he has to do is to control the BJJ fighter through wrestling techniques and add some G&P and he has the victory. Worked for Hughes for many years, Couture and many others as I’ve pointed out.

This is what wrestlers do, they take you down and control you. In wrestling competition they put you on your back, that’s real control. Those who have been succcessful in mma have been able to transfer that great skill of being able to control another fighter on the ground into mma. Lesnar is able to do that as he proved against Mir. Why you think that 20-30 pounds of muscle will nullify this I have no idea.

With the added size/strength, I actually think that the two guys are a lot closer in terms of grappling skill than you are making them out to be.

And you are actually wrong! Where did Mir wrestle? Why do you think he will be able to fend off Lesnar’s take down attempts? Why do you think that Mir will now be able to move around on the bottom? Where did he suddenly get the skill to do this? You think that because he is stonger he’ll just be able to do a push-up from bottom stand up and walk away from Lesnar? Okay, that’s funny, I’m sorry but you’re not seeing this one clearly at all.

Lesnar is of course the better wrestler,

And that’s all he’ll have to be to beat Mir whether Mir weighs 245 pounds as he did in their first match -up or he weighs in at 270 pounds. It’s going to be close to the same result unless Mir gains wrestling ability the way GSP did (oh I said that huh?)

[quote]
We’ll have to see how/if Mir’s strength does indeed make a difference. Until they fight it’s all speculation on our part.[/quote]

Not really because this scenario has played itself out many times on the mma scene.

Skill trumps size and strength. Anyone who knows anything about mma knows this. Gracie beat everyone back in the day because he had skill even though he gave away sometimes 60 pounds in size. But no one knew what he was doing in those days. Right. He had a skill set that the others could not deal with. To a smaller degree that’s what Lesnar has over Mir.

You want Lesnar to lose? No problem, but he’s NOT losing on the ground especially to Frank Mir. When and if Lesnar loses it will be to someone who can paritially nullify his incredible takedown and because of that there is more standing time and during that stand up time the opponent will be able to out strike him.

Someone like Carwin or maybe even Cain have a far better chance of defeating Lesnar than Frank Mir.

[quote]That’s hardly comparable to being manhandled into a tie up position

[quote]
True. It’s just that Lesnar manhandled Mir, while Sonnen did not manhandle Marquardt.[/quote]

I guess it depends on your definition of manhandle. Lesnar won in a bigger fashion but Sonnen dominated Marquardt for the entire fight with only a few minor exceptions. How big does someone have to win before you give them credit for total domination?

GSP did the same thing to Penn. When wrestlers know how to stay out of submissions, what to look for etc. they do quite well against BJJ fighters.

Mir also felt that Lesnar’s superior size/strength had enough of an impact in the fight to mention them in regards to reasons why Lesnar beat him (along with mentioning his great technique).

Ever hear of a guy named Gene Mills? He used to go up and down his teams wrestlers and bea them all. Some of the heavier guys said that Mills felt like he weighed 200+ pounds he controlled them so well.

Good wrestlers know how to control you and make you feel like there is a building sitting on top of you. You’re going to have to take to the mats sometime my friend, with a good wrestler who weighs 50 pounds less than you do. You’ll soon see what I mean, until you have that epiphany you might not fully understand.

Marquardt made no such mention when it came to Sonnen and only acknowledged his wrestling skill (as well as Nate having fought a bad fight).

First of all that crutch of an excuse is not there in weight classes where both fighters have to be the same weight. Secondly, Marquardt doesn’t have to acknowledge anything, it was plain to see that because of Sonnens superior wrestling Marquardt was off his game, but that’s what a good fighter will do anyway, you end up fighting their game and losing the fight, right?

[quote]

But you’re comparing someone who is only big and strong and has pretty much novice level grappling skill to someone who is big, strong, and a high level of grappling skill. That’s not a good comparison. I have never once said that someone with zero skill but lots of attributes is going to win a world title.[/quote]

But you do keep making the HUGE mistake of thinking that BJJ is equal to Wrestling when it comes to the ability to control your opponent. They are two different skills. I’m not saying that one is superior over the other. But, when you have an exceptional wrestler like Lesnar who knows how to stay away from the submission how is the BJJ guy going to win? By gaining more muscle? Nope.

[quote] Without Lesnar’s skill he probably would not have beat Mir,[/qoute]

Probably? Probably?

and without his size/strength advantage he may not have beat Mir either.

Oh man, what am I can I say to you?

If Mir and Lesnar were the exact same weight Lesnar would have beaten Mir. I guess that’s all I can say.

And this as well:

Stop putting so much ephmasis on Lesnar’s size he used to beat wrestlers who weighed the same in the same dominating fashion.

Yes, size and strength matter, but not to the degree that you think when it comes to Lesnar/Mir.

What will you say if Lesnar dominates a 265 pound Frank Mir?

Will you then give credit to skill, or will you say "if Mir were only 20 pounds bigger?

[quote]
By the way I have nothing but respect for Frank Mir, he’s tough determined and there isn’t an ounce of quit in him.

True. But man, he didn’t do himself any favors with those comments about wanting to break Brock’s neck and watch him die in the ring. I mean I understand trying to hype a fight with bad blood and all, but there is a line you just don’t cross.[/quote]

Yea, I read that too. I honestly think that the way Mir lost and the fact that Lesnar is a jerk caused him to have those feelings. Others have taken beatings but not felt this visceral hate toward their opponent. By the way I don’t think that kind of hate will help him in the octagon do you? It seems to me that when you are cool and controlled via Dan Henderson, is when you are able to operate at peak levels.

[ZEB]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

What makes you think that Marquardt was the stronger of the two fighters? Sonnen was clearly the naturally larger of the two and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he were stronger than Nate.[/quote]

You took the word of Mir, so I thought I’d take the word of Marquardt:

“Physically I’m stronger, better and faster.”

Nate Marquardt

(Taken from adcombat.com)

Even if they were the same size and strength (and I do believe that Marquardt was obviously the physically stronger specimen of the two) Sonnen controlled him with wrestling.

[ZEB]

And it may not make a difference in terms of Mir beating Lesnar, but the added 30 lbs of muscle and strength are going to make a difference in terms of him being able to avoid being manhandled like he was the first time.

You’re saying that someone who does not improve in wrestling will be able to fend off an exceptional wrestler who has already demonstrated his ability on that person, just by gaining 30 pounds of muscle. You are completely wrong. As I’ve already told you, Mir would have to do what GSP did, that is improve in wrestling. If Mir does that to the same degree that GSP did then he will put in a better performance, other than that no chance. The muscle won’t help much in this case.

[ZEB]

If size/strength don’t matter, then why are there weight classes in wrestling/submission grappling/combat sports?

I never said that they don’t matter, they matter a great deal. However, when someone is able to take you down and controll you gaining 20-30 pounds of muscle will not prevent that. This is only logical. As I said you must improve your wrestling game just as GSP did.