[quote]drewh wrote:
You act as if adding some weight helps prevent takedowns. Benches and squats aint gonna do shit for a sprawl (waits to here person who says it helped them)[/quote]
Riiiiiiight. Because no wrestlers do squats, olympic lifts or deadlifts to strengthen their hips (which are the muscles responsible for a strong sprawl)…
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]drewh wrote:
You act as if adding some weight helps prevent takedowns. Benches and squats aint gonna do shit for a sprawl (waits to here person who says it helped them)[/quote]
Riiiiiiight. Because no wrestlers do squats, olympic lifts or deadlifts to strengthen their hips (which are the muscles responsible for a strong sprawl)…[/quote]
A good sprawl is much more about reaction time which is learned. It has little to do with hip strength because the first line of defense is to completely get your hips back which I guess would involve core strength to a degree. It doesn’t even really involve a high degree of power since there is no force against the legs as you drive them back. Hips would only come into play if a guy has a hold of a single leg and you are driving that hip back against the strength of his arms… which shouldn’t really be an issue, hopefully anyways.
Even in that case it’s just about body position, which again has a learned component and to a degree an instinctual component. Takedowns only happen if a person doesn’t react fast enough with a sprawl, or they started off in a terrible position, like throwing and missing a hay maker. A high degree of strength (in the hips) is not necessary from how I look at it.
Thank you
Lesnar is not only bigger and stronger he’s faster as well.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I’d like anyone to give me a scenario of how Mir beats Carwin.
[/quote]
Ground submission
Oh. Didn’t realize Carwin was unsubmittable. Carry on, Vegas is a fool for setting Mir as the favorite.[/quote]
Vegas? Ha ha, seriously? Vegas has been wrong many, many times. Anyway, Carwin is far more experienced than Lesnar when he fought Mir the first time. How many people have gotten out of round one against Carwin?
And tell me again what makes Mir so tough against big wrestlers who can actually punch as well? Does he have a history of taking these people out easily, something I missed? No?
Mir cannot defend the takedown and is far slower with his striking than Carwin. Granted anything can happen in a fight, which makes mma the best sport on the planet, but I’ll stick with Carwin over Mir.
Vegas, ha ha.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
[quote]Amiright wrote:
I could do without mir v lesnar III… I don’t want to pay money for the same predictable outcome [/quote]
The outcome where Mir subbed Lesnar or where Lesnar TKO’d Mir?[/quote]
I actually can’t wait for Mir-Lesnar III. It looks like Mir’s been training his ass off for the sole purpose of avenging that loss. I’ve maintained that if he stuck to his gameplan instead of shooting for the sub out of the gate he could’ve won their second fight.[/quote]
Did you see the fight? His game plan went south of the border when Lesnar took him down and beat him like a red headed step child. There won’t be a rematch if Carwin wins and I don’t see how Mir stops Carwin, do you?
I’d like anyone to give me a scenario of how Mir beats Carwin. And don’t say ground submission as I think Carwin will be far too smart for that, he won’t give him a limb the way Lesnar did in their first fight.
It stays standing if Carwin wants, it goes to the ground if Carwin wants.
[/quote]
Dude, your not so subtle man crush is clouding what was right in front of you. Mirs corner devised a gameplan that Mir never even tried. Mir dove in for an easy sub thinking it was gonna be like the first time around and quickly realized it wasn’t. If/when they fight again you’ll see Brock exposed for what he is. And when he loses I don’t want to hear you crying about his having to deal with some phantom illness.[/quote]
Wow, that “man crush” retort is sort of old, anyway, I put great stock in excellent wrestlers. If you notice UFC history is loaded with current and former champions who specialized in wrestling. I don’t have to list them you know who they are.
If Lesnar fights before he’s ready then he deserves to lose. If he’s fully recovered and fights Mir again he will dominate Mir again. Mir will be bigger and stronger and still not be able to defend Lesnars takedown.
Yea, told you why.
Carwin has a shot of beating Mir, but Mir has not shot of beating either one of them. Carwin will dictate where the fight goes, he has faster and far, far more powerful hands. And he’s got more experience than Lesnar the first time he fought Mir. I also think that Carwin is an intelligent guy and knows what Mir is capable of on the ground.
When you have faster hands and hit harder you are a better striker. You are saying that Mir has better combinations? I don’t see that. Watch some of Carwins fights.
To be honest it never goes the way I think it will go. Ha, Carwin has to be careful Mir is tricky and never gives up. I have a ton of respect for him. But one way or the other I still think Carwin will win, he’s a force.
Did you think that Cain would beat Nog, and do it so easily?
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]drewh wrote:
You act as if adding some weight helps prevent takedowns. Benches and squats aint gonna do shit for a sprawl (waits to here person who says it helped them)[/quote]
Riiiiiiight. Because no wrestlers do squats, olympic lifts or deadlifts to strengthen their hips (which are the muscles responsible for a strong sprawl)…[/quote]
A good sprawl is much more about reaction time which is learned. It has little to do with hip strength because the first line of defense is to completely get your hips back which I guess would involve core strength to a degree. It doesn’t even really involve a high degree of power since there is no force against the legs as you drive them back. Hips would only come into play if a guy has a hold of a single leg and you are driving that hip back against the strength of his arms… which shouldn’t really be an issue, hopefully anyways.
[/quote]
Assuming that you see the shot coming and can get completely sprawled out I’d agree. But if the opponent does get a hold of your legs before you can completely sprawl, then you do require hip strength to be able to get your hips back and sprawl. Usually it’s not an issue because the hips are generally much stronger than the opponent’s back/arms, but if there is enough of a strength disparity then it will come into play more. Still, it’s not like your hips can be too strong, or that extra strength won’t make your sprawl even more effective.
[quote]
Even in that case it’s just about body position, which again has a learned component and to a degree an instinctual component. Takedowns only happen if a person doesn’t react fast enough with a sprawl, or they started off in a terrible position, like throwing and missing a hay maker. A high degree of strength (in the hips) is not necessary from how I look at it.[/quote]
Body positioning plays a huge role, no argument, and there is a big skill component. But again, you aren’t going to see the shot coming and be able to completely sprawl out before the opponent gets a hold of your legs every time. Maybe in a pure grappling match (and even then I doubt it) where you basically know that the opponent is going to try to take you down (because that’s basically their #1 goal), but not in an MMA context.
And if that should happen, then yes you do need strength to be able to attain that positive body position. It’s the muscles which move the body, so the ability to explosively move or manipulate the body into a more favorable position is determined by the muscles ability to generate force. Moving quickly requires a powerful muscular contraction, it’s just that there is little resistance so the movement winds up being fast.
And even if I were to admit that sprawling effectiveness is not highly dependent on hip strength; sprawling is hardly the only skill set required in grappling/fighting. How about bridging? Highly, highly dependent on hip strength/power. What about trying to tie up/control the opponent’s arms/body position while they’re in your guard? You need good grip/upper body strength to do that. What about being able to not get completely manhandled while on the ground because the opponent can basically just force you into any position they like because they are leaps and bounds stronger than you (like what happened to Mir in the last fight)?
Anyone who thinks that Mir gaining 20 lbs of muscle and the strength to go with it isn’t going to at least help him do better than he did last time, or that the huge strength advantage that Lesnar had in the last fight didn’t play an important role in his domination of Mir is kidding themselves.
[quote]drewh wrote:
Thank you
Lesnar is not only bigger and stronger he’s faster as well.[/quote]
That I’ll agree with. Even with Mir’s new found strength, he can’t match up physically with Brock. But, the closer he can get to Brock’s levels of size, strength, and speed, the less it’ll be a factor and the more the odds swing to the superior technician. Lesnar will always be the better wrestler IMO, but Mir is the better striker and submission artist. So, it should be an interesting match (if it ever happens) to see who can better utilize their skill set to win the fight.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I’d like anyone to give me a scenario of how Mir beats Carwin.
[/quote]
Ground submission
Oh. Didn’t realize Carwin was unsubmittable. Carry on, Vegas is a fool for setting Mir as the favorite.[/quote]
Vegas? Ha ha, seriously? Vegas has been wrong many, many times. Anyway, Carwin is far more experienced than Lesnar when he fought Mir the first time. How many people have gotten out of round one against Carwin?
And tell me again what makes Mir so tough against big wrestlers who can actually punch as well? Does he have a history of taking these people out easily, something I missed? No?
Mir cannot defend the takedown and is far slower with his striking than Carwin. Granted anything can happen in a fight, which makes mma the best sport on the planet, but I’ll stick with Carwin over Mir.
Vegas, ha ha.[/quote]
Dude I’m not saying Mir is guaranteed to win. But acting like Carwin is a certainty is idiotic.
Frank Mir has beaten Lesnar, Big Nog and Kongo. Carwin’s best win is Gabriel Gonzaga. Mir certainly has more experience and bigger wins than Carwin. I don’t think Mir is a certainty either, but there is a reason why he’s the favorite in this fight.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]drewh wrote:
Thank you
Lesnar is not only bigger and stronger he’s faster as well.[/quote]
That I’ll agree with. Even with Mir’s new found strength, he can’t match up physically with Brock. But, the closer he can get to Brock’s levels of size, strength, and speed, the less it’ll be a factor and the more the odds swing to the superior technician. Lesnar will always be the better wrestler IMO, but Mir is the better striker and submission artist. So, it should be an interesting match (if it ever happens) to see who can better utilize their skill set to win the fight.[/quote]
mir has never really been known for his cardio (actually, general consensus is it’s pretty crappy) if he cant carry the new weight well, gassing out under either lesnar or carwin would = game over
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I’d like anyone to give me a scenario of how Mir beats Carwin.
[/quote]
Ground submission
Oh. Didn’t realize Carwin was unsubmittable. Carry on, Vegas is a fool for setting Mir as the favorite.[/quote]
Vegas? Ha ha, seriously? Vegas has been wrong many, many times. Anyway, Carwin is far more experienced than Lesnar when he fought Mir the first time. How many people have gotten out of round one against Carwin?
And tell me again what makes Mir so tough against big wrestlers who can actually punch as well? Does he have a history of taking these people out easily, something I missed? No?
Mir cannot defend the takedown and is far slower with his striking than Carwin. Granted anything can happen in a fight, which makes mma the best sport on the planet, but I’ll stick with Carwin over Mir.
Vegas, ha ha.[/quote]
Dude I’m not saying Mir is guaranteed to win. But acting like Carwin is a certainty is idiotic.
Frank Mir has beaten Lesnar, Big Nog and Kongo. Carwin’s best win is Gabriel Gonzaga. Mir certainly has more experience and bigger wins than Carwin. I don’t think Mir is a certainty either, but there is a reason why he’s the favorite in this fight. [/quote]
I agree with you no one is a certainty in mma. But, don’t put too much stock in what the “expert” odds makers say. They’ve called many fights wrong. I think they had Penn a favorite over GSP in their last fight. I don’t recall was Nog the favorite over Cain?
I’m looking forward to a good fight and if I was a betting man would put it on Carwin.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
the huge strength advantage that Lesnar had in the last fight didn’t play an important role in his domination of Mir is kidding themselves.
[/quote]
I don’t want to revive our old argument that took us 5 or 6 pages to have but you’ve really got that wrong. It was his wrestling ability which caused him to control Mir on the ground, that’s what wrestlers do. Take Matt Hughes for example, yes he was (and is) a strong guy, when he was champion he controlled many people on the ground who were as strong or stronger than him.
The same goes for Randy Couture as he too has the ability to control people on the ground, because of skill not strength. GSP, who learned wrestling later in life none the less controls his opponents on the ground because of his new found grappling skill. He was certainly not stronger than Alves, yet controlled him on the ground.
Surely a wrestler of Lesnars caliber which is better than Hughes, GSP and most of the others can control people on the ground with SKILL.
I usually don’t disagree with many of your posts, but I don’t think you give wrestlers the credit that they deserve when it comes to their ability to get people on the ground and control them. When you add that to your extreme dislike of Brock Lesnar, well you have a real blind spot.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
the huge strength advantage that Lesnar had in the last fight didn’t play an important role in his domination of Mir is kidding themselves.
[/quote]
I don’t want to revive our old argument that took us 5 or 6 pages to have but you’ve really got that wrong. It was his wrestling ability which caused him to control Mir on the ground, that’s what wrestlers do. Take Matt Hughes for example, yes he was (and is) a strong guy, when he was champion he controlled many people on the ground who were as strong or stronger than him. The same goes for Randy Couture as he too has the ability to control people on the ground, because of skill not strength. GSP, who learned wrestling later in life none the less controls his opponents on the ground because of his new found grappling skill. He was certainly not stronger than Alves, yet controlled him on the ground. Surely a wrestler of Lesnars caliber which is better than Hughes, GSP and most of the others can control people on the ground with SKILL.
I usually don’t disagree with many of your posts, but I don’t think you give wrestlers the credit that they deserve when it comes to their ability to get people on the ground and control them. When you add that to your extreme dislike of Brock Lesnar, well you have a real blind spot.
[/quote]
Yes, his wrestling ability played a big role. But it was his strength which allowed him to manipulate Mir into that tie up position at will and hold him there helpless.
I’m not saying that Brock may not still be able to control Mir on the ground with his wrestling, even with Mir’s new found strength, or that someone without Brock’s wrestling skill would be able to do the same. But again, his strength played a big role in his total domination of Mir on the ground in their second fight.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]drewh wrote:
Thank you
Lesnar is not only bigger and stronger he’s faster as well.[/quote]
That I’ll agree with. Even with Mir’s new found strength, he can’t match up physically with Brock. But, the closer he can get to Brock’s levels of size, strength, and speed, the less it’ll be a factor and the more the odds swing to the superior technician. Lesnar will always be the better wrestler IMO, but Mir is the better striker and submission artist. So, it should be an interesting match (if it ever happens) to see who can better utilize their skill set to win the fight.[/quote]
mir has never really been known for his cardio (actually, general consensus is it’s pretty crappy) if he cant carry the new weight well, gassing out under either lesnar or carwin would = game over[/quote]
Very true. Though, I suspect since his new found strength/size has been gained mostly through strongman training with Mark Phillipi, that his cardio probably hasn’t been decreased.
He never had good cardio to begin with
[quote]drewh wrote:
He never had good cardio to begin with[/quote]
He’s certainly never been know for it, and especially after he came back from his accident, he had some dismal performances from a cardio standpoint. But, he says he’s been working on it, and if indeed he has been seriously training with Phillipi, I don’t doubt that. Whether it’ll be enough is yet to be seen. It’s all just speculation at this point.
But I doubt that his increased muscle mass/strength has hurt his cardio, or he won’t be able to carry it well (like slimjim mentioned) simply judging by the method he used to attain it. Strongmen competitors have some serious strength endurance, and training like them produces just that.
Strength endurance from strongman training=mma endurance? Pudz or any other strongman would not last 5 let alone 3 5 minute rounds.
[quote]drewh wrote:
Strength endurance from strongman training=mma endurance? Pudz or any other strongman would not last 5 let alone 3 5 minute rounds.[/quote]
Give him some time. You are comparing guys who are either completely untrained, or just getting into MMA to accomplished highly trained guys like Mir. That’s not a fair comparison.
A lot of the conditioning in MMA is specific and attained through actually practicing MMA skills. Someone who didn’t have those skills would use too much muscle/effort and wind up tiring themselves out. They’d also be very inefficient and basically have to rely solely on their physical strength.
Take someone with that kind of strength endurance and have them develop a high level of MMA skill, or take someone who already has a high degree of MMA skill and give them that kind of strength endurance and you’ve got a dangerous fighter.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
the huge strength advantage that Lesnar had in the last fight didn’t play an important role in his domination of Mir is kidding themselves.
[/quote]
I don’t want to revive our old argument that took us 5 or 6 pages to have but you’ve really got that wrong. It was his wrestling ability which caused him to control Mir on the ground, that’s what wrestlers do. Take Matt Hughes for example, yes he was (and is) a strong guy, when he was champion he controlled many people on the ground who were as strong or stronger than him. The same goes for Randy Couture as he too has the ability to control people on the ground, because of skill not strength. GSP, who learned wrestling later in life none the less controls his opponents on the ground because of his new found grappling skill. He was certainly not stronger than Alves, yet controlled him on the ground. Surely a wrestler of Lesnars caliber which is better than Hughes, GSP and most of the others can control people on the ground with SKILL.
I usually don’t disagree with many of your posts, but I don’t think you give wrestlers the credit that they deserve when it comes to their ability to get people on the ground and control them. When you add that to your extreme dislike of Brock Lesnar, well you have a real blind spot.
[/quote]
Yes, his wrestling ability played a big role. But it was his strength which allowed him to manipulate Mir into that tie up position at will and hold him there helpless.[/quote]
Wow, Sentoguy, you are just never going to understand wrestling are you? I’ve given you a multitude of examples of wrestlers who were equal in strength to their opponent or even at a stength disadvantage yet held their opponent helpless on the ground. But for some reason you just can’t get over the whole Brock Lesnar is big thing can you? I’ll just have to chalk this up to a wrestling/Lesnar blind spot that you have.
Strength is always better to have than not, no one, who knows anything about mma, will disagree with that. However, you can take a world class wrestler weighing 200 pounds and he will not be able to be controlled on the ground by a 300 pound strong man who has had no wrestling or ground training of any kind. What does that tell you?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
the huge strength advantage that Lesnar had in the last fight didn’t play an important role in his domination of Mir is kidding themselves.
[/quote]
I don’t want to revive our old argument that took us 5 or 6 pages to have but you’ve really got that wrong. It was his wrestling ability which caused him to control Mir on the ground, that’s what wrestlers do. Take Matt Hughes for example, yes he was (and is) a strong guy, when he was champion he controlled many people on the ground who were as strong or stronger than him. The same goes for Randy Couture as he too has the ability to control people on the ground, because of skill not strength. GSP, who learned wrestling later in life none the less controls his opponents on the ground because of his new found grappling skill. He was certainly not stronger than Alves, yet controlled him on the ground. Surely a wrestler of Lesnars caliber which is better than Hughes, GSP and most of the others can control people on the ground with SKILL.
I usually don’t disagree with many of your posts, but I don’t think you give wrestlers the credit that they deserve when it comes to their ability to get people on the ground and control them. When you add that to your extreme dislike of Brock Lesnar, well you have a real blind spot.
[/quote]
Yes, his wrestling ability played a big role. But it was his strength which allowed him to manipulate Mir into that tie up position at will and hold him there helpless.[/quote]
Wow, Sentoguy, you are just never going to understand wrestling are you? I’ve given you a multitude of examples of wrestlers who were equal in strength to their opponent or even at a stength disadvantage yet held their opponent helpless on the ground. But for some reason you just can’t get over the whole Brock Lesnar is big thing can you? I’ll just have to chalk this up to a wrestling/Lesnar blind spot that you have.
[/quote]
I understand wrestling just fine. You on the other hand seem unwilling to admit that Brock’s huge size/strength advantage is one of the reasons he is such a dominant fighter/wrestler. What’s the first thing that Randy said after losing to him?
Randy: “That’s one big sumbitch”
How about Mir’s thoughts about why he lost?
Mir: “I think 245 was a good weight as far as maybe everybody else in the heavyweight division, but fighting Brock, there was too much of a size difference, due to the fact that he had great technique also.”
"It wasn’t just because of his size that he was able to nullify my technique, but he used his size.
That’s pretty much exactly what I’ve been saying, straight from the horses mouth(s). I’m not disregarding his skill, he’s definitely got wrestling skills. But to disregard the strength/size factor makes you sound like one of those people who drank the “koolaid” and believes that size/strength doesn’t matter at all, that the winner is always the one with better technique; which just isn’t the case.
Strength is always better to have than not, no one, who knows anything about mma, will disagree with that. However, you can take a world class wrestler weighing 200 pounds and he will not be able to be controlled on the ground by a 300 pound strong man who has had no wrestling or ground training of any kind. What does that tell you?
[/quote]
Exactly what I’ve been saying? That there had better be a huge skill disparity if there is a huge size disparity. The closer the two fighters are in skill, the more the size/strength factor will play a role.
If we took your wrestling example and made them both world class wrestlers, one weighing 200 lbs and one weighing 300 lbs, who would your money be on then? Why? Exactly. Because of the size/strength advantage that the 300 lb guy would have. That’s why there are weight classes in all combat sports.
But we aren’t talking about someone with world class skill vs someone with absolutely no skill. Mir is a BJJ black belt and very dangerous submission guy who is well versed in grappling. It’s not like he was a kickboxer who just learned a little sprawl defense (like Cro Cop, or Kongo), or got into it very late in the game; his “thing” was always grappling. No, I still don’t think that his wrestling skill is/was on the same level as Brock’s, but he certainly knows what he’s doing. His loss wasn’t simply due to him not being skilled or unfamiliar with grappling.
That isn’t true Nick DIaz would not be the same fighter if he was stronger, neither would Demian Maia or a Shinya Aoki. For some styles strength isn’t key.