I never said that they don’t matter, they matter a great deal. However, when someone is able to take you down and controll you gaining 20-30 pounds of muscle will not prevent that. This is only logical. As I said you must improve your wrestling game just as GSP did.
[quote]
No argument, Mir needs to bring his wrestling ability up. But you seem to either underestimate, or have no respect for the fact that he is already a high level Jiu-jitsu guy, so he knows what he’s doing on the ground.[/quote]
Okay, here is your weakness. I’m not talking about people who can work on the ground. There is a distinct difference between a BB in Jiu-Jitsu and a wrestler. If the wrestler knows how to avoid getting caught in a submission then all he has to do is to control the BJJ fighter through wrestling techniques and add some G&P and he has the victory. Worked for Hughes for many years, Couture and many others as I’ve pointed out.
This is what wrestlers do, they take you down and control you. In wrestling competition they put you on your back, that’s real control. Those who have been succcessful in mma have been able to transfer that great skill of being able to control another fighter on the ground into mma. Lesnar is able to do that as he proved against Mir. Why you think that 20-30 pounds of muscle will nullify this I have no idea.
And you are actually wrong! Where did Mir wrestle? Why do you think he will be able to fend off Lesnar’s take down attempts? Why do you think that Mir will now be able to move around on the bottom? Where did he suddenly get the skill to do this? You think that because he is stonger he’ll just be able to do a push-up from bottom stand up and walk away from Lesnar? Okay, that’s funny, I’m sorry but you’re not seeing this one clearly at all.
[quote]
We’ll have to see how/if Mir’s strength does indeed make a difference. Until they fight it’s all speculation on our part.[/quote]
Not really because this scenario has played itself out many times on the mma scene.
Skill trumps size and strength. Anyone who knows anything about mma knows this. Gracie beat everyone back in the day because he had skill even though he gave away sometimes 60 pounds in size. But no one knew what he was doing in those days. Right. He had a skill set that the others could not deal with. To a smaller degree that’s what Lesnar has over Mir.
You want Lesnar to lose? No problem, but he’s NOT losing on the ground especially to Frank Mir. When and if Lesnar loses it will be to someone who can paritially nullify his incredible takedown and because of that there is more standing time and during that stand up time the opponent will be able to out strike him.
Someone like Carwin or maybe even Cain have a far better chance of defeating Lesnar than Frank Mir.
Ever hear of a guy named Gene Mills? He used to go up and down his teams wrestlers and bea them all. Some of the heavier guys said that Mills felt like he weighed 200+ pounds he controlled them so well.
Good wrestlers know how to control you and make you feel like there is a building sitting on top of you. You’re going to have to take to the mats sometime my friend, with a good wrestler who weighs 50 pounds less than you do. You’ll soon see what I mean, until you have that epiphany you might not fully understand.
[quote]
By the way I have nothing but respect for Frank Mir, he’s tough determined and there isn’t an ounce of quit in him.
True. But man, he didn’t do himself any favors with those comments about wanting to break Brock’s neck and watch him die in the ring. I mean I understand trying to hype a fight with bad blood and all, but there is a line you just don’t cross.[/quote]
Yea, I read that too. I honestly think that the way Mir lost and the fact that Lesnar is a jerk caused him to have those feelings. Others have taken beatings but not felt this visceral hate toward their opponent. By the way I don’t think that kind of hate will help him in the octagon do you? It seems to me that when you are cool and controlled via Dan Henderson, is when you are able to operate at peak levels.
[quote]
By the way I have nothing but respect for Frank Mir, he’s tough determined and there isn’t an ounce of quit in him.
True. But man, he didn’t do himself any favors with those comments about wanting to break Brock’s neck and watch him die in the ring. I mean I understand trying to hype a fight with bad blood and all, but there is a line you just don’t cross.[/quote]
Yea, I read that too. I honestly think that the way Mir lost and the fact that Lesnar is a jerk caused him to have those feelings. Others have taken beatings but not felt this visceral hate toward their opponent. By the way I don’t think that kind of hate will help him in the octagon do you? It seems to me that when you are cool and controlled via Dan Henderson, is when you are able to operate at peak levels.
Sentoguy,
Sorry about having to break up my answer to your post, but I couldn’t post it any other way. I’ve been having trouble posting long answers in one post only on this thread for some reason.
Anyway, if you want to continue please PM me.
Thanks,
Zeb
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]
No argument, Mir needs to bring his wrestling ability up. But you seem to either underestimate, or have no respect for the fact that he is already a high level Jiu-jitsu guy, so he knows what he’s doing on the ground.[/quote]
Okay, here is your weakness. I’m not talking about people who can work on the ground. There is a distinct difference between a BB in Jiu-Jitsu and a wrestler. If the wrestler knows how to avoid getting caught in a submission then all he has to do is to control the BJJ fighter through wrestling techniques and add some G&P and he has the victory. Worked for Hughes for many years, Couture and many others as I’ve pointed out.
This is what wrestlers do, they take you down and control you. In wrestling competition they put you on your back, that’s real control. Those who have been succcessful in mma have been able to transfer that great skill of being able to control another fighter on the ground into mma. Lesnar is able to do that as he proved against Mir. Why you think that 20-30 pounds of muscle will nullify this I have no idea.[/quote]
You only prove my point about your bias with this post. You obviously are biased towards wrestlers in general and do not respect the skill that other grappling systems require.
What’s your retort to Arona vs Henderson then? Arona is a BJJ black belt, while Henderson is an Olympic Silver Medalist wrestler, yet it certainly didn’t look like Henderson was able to just hold Arona down and control him while on the ground. Arona said after the fight that Henderson was just too small for him and that he actually felt sorry for Hendo.
Or how about Marcelo Garcia beating Mike Van Arsdale (who outweighed him by quite a bit) in ADCC? Marcelo is a BJJ black belt, while Van Arsdale is a former Div 1 National champ wrestler.
Or hey, how about the classic example of Royce submitting Dan Severn? Or how about how dominant that Nog (a BJJ black belt) looked against Randy in their last fight?
My point isn’t to illustrate that BJJ is superior to wrestling, not by any means. Only to illustrate that there are instances where fighters from both systems have beaten fighters from the other system. Both systems can produce highly effective grapplers with very high levels of grappling skill. There isn’t this innate level of dominance which you attribute to wrestling as a system.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Ever hear of a guy named Gene Mills? He used to go up and down his teams wrestlers and bea them all. Some of the heavier guys said that Mills felt like he weighed 200+ pounds he controlled them so well.
Good wrestlers know how to control you and make you feel like there is a building sitting on top of you. You’re going to have to take to the mats sometime my friend, with a good wrestler who weighs 50 pounds less than you do. You’ll soon see what I mean, until you have that epiphany you might not fully understand.
[/quote]
I’ve rolled with quite a few wrestlers actually. Some smaller, some bigger, some about the same size. They usually do have very good takedowns and takedown defense and conditioning, but once on the ground, I wouldn’t say that they’re really any better at controlling you than really good BJJ, Judo, or Sambo guys. Wrestling also isn’t the only system that teaches you how to control someone or make yourself seem heavier. Just about every grappling system does that.
I’ve had the opportunity to work with an olympic bronze medalist (who outweighs me by quite a bit no less) and let me just say, that was scary. But, no scarier than working with someone like Shihan Walt or Shihan Charlie (who are both Jiu-Jitsu guys). Once you get up into the really high levels, the system matters less, and the individual fighter matters more.
Perhaps you’ve just never had the opportunity to roll with a really good, strong, jiu-jitsu guy and therefore don’t really respect their level of skill. Until you have that epiphany you might not fully understand.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
No argument, Mir needs to bring his wrestling ability up. But you seem to either underestimate, or have no respect for the fact that he is already a high level Jiu-jitsu guy, so he knows what he’s doing on the ground.[/quote]
Okay, here is your weakness. I’m not talking about people who can work on the ground. There is a distinct difference between a BB in Jiu-Jitsu and a wrestler. If the wrestler knows how to avoid getting caught in a submission then all he has to do is to control the BJJ fighter through wrestling techniques and add some G&P and he has the victory. Worked for Hughes for many years, Couture and many others as I’ve pointed out.
This is what wrestlers do, they take you down and control you. In wrestling competition they put you on your back, that’s real control. Those who have been succcessful in mma have been able to transfer that great skill of being able to control another fighter on the ground into mma. Lesnar is able to do that as he proved against Mir. Why you think that 20-30 pounds of muscle will nullify this I have no idea.[/quote]
You only prove my point about your bias with this post. You obviously are biased towards wrestlers in general and do not respect the skill that other grappling systems require.[/quote]
Not at all, but Lesnar and others have proven that exceptional wrestlers can avoid submissions.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
What’s your retort to Arona vs Henderson then? Arona is a BJJ black belt, while Henderson is an Olympic Silver Medalist wrestler, yet it certainly didn’t look like Henderson was able to just hold Arona down and control him while on the ground. Arona said after the fight that Henderson was just too small for him and that he actually felt sorry for Hendo.
Or how about Marcelo Garcia beating Mike Van Arsdale (who outweighed him by quite a bit) in ADCC? Marcelo is a BJJ black belt, while Van Arsdale is a former Div 1 National champ wrestler.
Or hey, how about the classic example of Royce submitting Dan Severn? Or how about how dominant that Nog (a BJJ black belt) looked against Randy in their last fight?[/quote]
Indeed there are exceptions both ways. Hughes/Penn GSP/Penn and of course Lesnar/Mir. Now you think that the exception will go away if Mir gains more muscle. See, that makes no sense, sorry.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
ZEB wrote:
My point isn’t to illustrate that BJJ is superior to wrestling, not by any means. Only to illustrate that there are instances where fighters from both systems have beaten fighters from the other system. Both systems can produce highly effective grapplers with very high levels of grappling skill. There isn’t this innate level of dominance which you attribute to wrestling as a system.[/quote]
I don’t attribute dominance to one system over the other and in fact I have trained in both. What I’m doing is attributing dominance in the way Lesnar carries out his sport over the way Mir is able to execute his own. AND, Lesnar has proven me right. More Mir muscle won’t change that.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I’ve rolled with quite a few wrestlers actually. Some smaller, some bigger, some about the same size. They usually do have very good takedowns and takedown defense and conditioning, but once on the ground, I wouldn’t say that they’re really any better at controlling you than really good BJJ, Judo, or Sambo guys.[/quote]
It depends on the wrestler, I have no idea who you “rolled with” but I can assure you if you got on the mat with a Division One NCAA Champion, or even a guy in the top ten you’d know what I’m talking about. Mir knows the feeling. Again, not that these guys can’t be beaten they certainly can be, but I think it will take more than Mir’s incredible BJJ skills to take out Lesnar.
[quote]
Wrestling also isn’t the only system that teaches you how to control someone or make yourself seem heavier. Just about every grappling system does that.[/quote]
Never said it was.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I’ve had the opportunity to work with an olympic bronze medalist (who outweighs me by quite a bit no less) and let me just say, that was scary. But, no scarier than working with someone like Shihan Walt or Shihan Charlie (who are both Jiu-Jitsu guys). Once you get up into the really high levels, the system matters less, and the individual fighter matters more.[/quote]
Very well said, I agree. That’s why I will stick to the fact that Lesnar seems to have Mir’s number in terms of submissions. After he was submitted by Mir he went to school on BJJ and I think he knows how to stay tight and ground and pound. Oh wait, he proved that he does. Do you think he’ll forget all of that, after proving that he understands it? I don’t.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Perhaps you’ve just never had the opportunity to roll with a really good, strong, jiu-jitsu guy and therefore don’t really respect their level of skill. Until you have that epiphany you might not fully understand.
[/quote]
You’ve got it wrong my friend. I’ve gotten on the mat with Marcelo Garcia (what a great guy by the way), Royce Gracie and several other high level black belts and it was not fun at least from the win/loss stand-point. But, I did learn a lot and have nothing but respect for the art. In fact, one of my sons asked me which he should do after wrestling a few years and I steered him directly to BJJ.
BJJ is the great equalizer, but as we’ve seen the best in the world can be controlled by a a really good wrestler and a really good BJJ fighter can submit a really good wrestler. As you’ve said it depends on who the combatants are and in the case of Lesnar/ Mir it’s been proven who the best is. I have no doubt that if they meet again Lesnar will once again win. Unless of course Mir goes to school on wrestling and brings something other than a bigger chest and ego into the fight.
Didn’t Mir already tap Lesnar? This is what I don’t understand. It isn’t speculation, it has literally already happened.
Obviously, Lesnar has improved since then. Why can’t Mir have improved as well? Obviously Lesnar, as being much newer to the sport of MMA, is going to improve faster, I do understand that. Lesnar learned from his first fight and I’m sure Mir has learned from his last fight. Lesnar demonstrated that he is the superior fighter, but Mir is no slouch either.
I personally think that Lesnar will still ragdoll Mir and beat him via TKO. But to act like that’s a foregone conclusion is ridiculous. To say that, “wrestlers can learn to avoid submissions” as some blanket statement is a little silly. Yes, wrestlers can greatly improve their submission defense. Lesnar has obviously done that. Many wrestlers have done that. But yet, wrestlers still get submitted, just as strikers who improve their takedown defense still get taken down and BJJ guys who improve their boxing still get knocked out.
The bottom line is that Mir’s submission game is still excellent and he is still a threat to submit Lesnar. If Lesnar gets sloppy or a little careless, he absolutely could get submitted. I don’t think that will happen, but it is a very possible.
EDIT: Wrote this before Zeb’s last two posts went through.
Mir equals veteran
Lesnar equals relatively new
Obviously Lesnar has more room for improvement and that’s the key
Somewhat unrelated, but I hate Lesner, because people who call themselves/act like misanthropes are attention seeking wankers. So I don’t care who wins, I’d prefer Mir, because Carwin is a bit of a shitfinger himself, but whatever, just knock out Lesner, beat him silly, make him STFU PLEASE.
I used to feel the same way, but it seems like all Lesnars challengers are talking more shit than he is recently.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Indeed there are exceptions both ways. Hughes/Penn GSP/Penn and of course Lesnar/Mir. Now you think that the exception will go away if Mir gains more muscle. See, that makes no sense, sorry.[/quote]
Yes, there are examples both ways.
My point was only to illustrate that either system could be victorious against the other. So far Mir and Lesnar are split 1-1, both have proven that they can beat the other. In both instances Lesnar had the decided physical advantage.
Even with Mir’s new found strength/muscle Lesnar will still likely have the advantage in that regard and probably will always have it. But, if Mir can at least get to the point where it’s not a huge gap, then he’ll have at least minimized that advantage.
That doesn’t mean that I think he’s going to win necessarily, or that I think that Lesnar won’t still have the wrestling advantage, but it’s at least one less thing that Mir will have to worry about, and should IMO make the ground game at least more competitive.
It’ll likely wind up looking more like Sonnen vs Marquardt where Lesnar spends the majority of time in Mir’s guard hitting him with elbows and hammerfists, while Mir threatens for submissions from time to time but is unsuccessful, until either Lesnar wins a decision, or Mir tires out and Lesnar is able to TKO him.
I don’t think that Mir will be able to keep the fight standing if Lesnar wants to take it to the ground, and I don’t think that Lesnar will be arrogant/stupid enough to try to stand and kickbox with Mir.
So, it’s either going to be Mir by submission or KO, or Lesnar by TKO or decision IMO.