Mir/Carwin should be a good match-up for Carwin I think. The fight goes where ever Carwin wants it to go as he can take Mir down, but Mir cannot take him down. If Carwin is the superior striker, and I think he is, Mir is going down ala Nog vs Cain. If Carwin has trouble on his feet (doubtful) he can take it to the ground and his wrestling is probably good enough to control Mir somewhat like Lessnar did.
I don’t see Mir winning this fight.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Agreed, although I will say that there are probably very few people, if anybody that can nullify his wrestling advantage. Of the top 10 or so heavyweights:
Fedor
Lesnar
Mir
Big Nog
Carwin
dos Santos
Overeem
Barnett
Rogers
Werdum
Obviously Fedor is Fedor and Lesnar could nullify Cain’s wrestling with his own. Mir has the grappling credentials but got dominated on the ground by Lesnar. Cain is not at that level of size and power but his wrestling is still dominant and it’s possible that he could work Mir over on the ground, although I would still make Mir the favorite in that matchup. I wish the Big Nog fight would have gone to the ground so we could see how Cain dealt with a submission threat of that magnitude. Werdum and Barnett are two excellent grapplers, but we’re not likely to see either of them fight Cain any time soon and it seems that Cain has the explosiveness to handle them. Cain’s wrestling is a step above Carwin, but Carwin does have the knockout power to make Cain wary. Kongo had Cain in trouble, but I think Cain would still beat Carwin as I think Carwin is overrated. Overeem is an excellent striker with strength and power to test Cain, but ultimately not in the same class I think.
[/quote]
Mir is also a good 25 lbs bigger and stronger than he was when he got worked over by Lesnar at this point though. Cain is also much smaller, not as effective, and not as strong as Lesnar, so he wouldn’t have the same advantages as Lesnar did to begin with.
I’m not saying that Cain couldn’t outwrestle Mir, but comparing what Lesnar did to him and then by association of Cain also being a wrestler predict that Cain could do the same thing just doesn’t make sense.
I don’t think we can really say that Cain’s wrestling is a notch above Carwin’s at this point. Not only because there is no evidence of such on paper. Cain was an all American, placed 5th at highest, at least from the sources I can find; while Carwin is a 2x Div 2 runner up, and 1x National champ. kmc has already discussed the issues of levels of competition between the two divisions, so I won’t go into that. Even if we are to assume that Div 1 is always higher, those rankings would still be about equal.
But we also haven’t seen them fight any like opponents, and Carwin makes people’s brains explode every time he connects with his right hand. So we haven’t really even seen him need to use his wrestling in the UFC.
The fight with Mir should (assuming that he doesn’t just connect with a right as soon as the bell rings) tell us a lot about his true skill level.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
[quote]Amiright wrote:
I could do without mir v lesnar III… I don’t want to pay money for the same predictable outcome [/quote]
The outcome where Mir subbed Lesnar or where Lesnar TKO’d Mir?[/quote]
I actually can’t wait for Mir-Lesnar III. It looks like Mir’s been training his ass off for the sole purpose of avenging that loss. I’ve maintained that if he stuck to his gameplan instead of shooting for the sub out of the gate he could’ve won their second fight.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Mir/Carwin should be a good match-up for Carwin I think. The fight goes where ever Carwin wants it to go as he can take Mir down, but Mir cannot take him down. If Carwin is the superior striker, and I think he is, Mir is going down ala Nog vs Cain. If Carwin has trouble on his feet (doubtful) he can take it to the ground and his wrestling is probably good enough to control Mir somewhat like Lessnar did.
I don’t see Mir winning this fight.[/quote]
I love Carwin and want to see Cawin/Lesnar as bad as anybody, but I don’t like this Mir fight. Carwin is not the superior striker, he just has superior power. I can’t exactly pinpoint it, but something about this fight makes me think Carwin’s not ready for Mir.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
But we also haven’t seen them fight any like opponents, and Carwin makes people’s brains explode every time he connects with his right hand. So we haven’t really even seen him need to use his wrestling in the UFC.
The fight with Mir should (assuming that he doesn’t just connect with a right as soon as the bell rings) tell us a lot about his true skill level. [/quote]
Agreed. I’m looking forward to seeing him get tested against an elite guy.
Mir is 10 pouns bigger tops, the Lesnar fight he decided to come in smaller so he could be faster.
[quote]drewh wrote:
Mir is 10 pouns bigger tops, the Lesnar fight he decided to come in smaller so he could be faster.[/quote]
That worked out really well for him.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
[quote]Amiright wrote:
I could do without mir v lesnar III… I don’t want to pay money for the same predictable outcome [/quote]
The outcome where Mir subbed Lesnar or where Lesnar TKO’d Mir?[/quote]
I actually can’t wait for Mir-Lesnar III. It looks like Mir’s been training his ass off for the sole purpose of avenging that loss. I’ve maintained that if he stuck to his gameplan instead of shooting for the sub out of the gate he could’ve won their second fight.[/quote]
Did you see the fight? His game plan went south of the border when Lesnar took him down and beat him like a red headed step child. There won’t be a rematch if Carwin wins and I don’t see how Mir stops Carwin, do you?
I’d like anyone to give me a scenario of how Mir beats Carwin. And don’t say ground submission as I think Carwin will be far too smart for that, he won’t give him a limb the way Lesnar did in their first fight.
It stays standing if Carwin wants, it goes to the ground if Carwin wants.
[quote]drewh wrote:
Mir is 10 pouns bigger tops, the Lesnar fight he decided to come in smaller so he could be faster.[/quote]
Maybe in total scale weight, but he’s put on 20-25 lbs of muscle since he stepped into the ring with Lesnar. He has stated this several times himself.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
[quote]Amiright wrote:
I could do without mir v lesnar III… I don’t want to pay money for the same predictable outcome [/quote]
The outcome where Mir subbed Lesnar or where Lesnar TKO’d Mir?[/quote]
I actually can’t wait for Mir-Lesnar III. It looks like Mir’s been training his ass off for the sole purpose of avenging that loss. I’ve maintained that if he stuck to his gameplan instead of shooting for the sub out of the gate he could’ve won their second fight.[/quote]
Did you see the fight? His game plan went south of the border when Lesnar took him down and beat him like a red headed step child. There won’t be a rematch if Carwin wins and I don’t see how Mir stops Carwin, do you?
I’d like anyone to give me a scenario of how Mir beats Carwin. And don’t say ground submission as I think Carwin will be far too smart for that, he won’t give him a limb the way Lesnar did in their first fight.
It stays standing if Carwin wants, it goes to the ground if Carwin wants.
[/quote]
Dude, your not so subtle man crush is clouding what was right in front of you. Mirs corner devised a gameplan that Mir never even tried. Mir dove in for an easy sub thinking it was gonna be like the first time around and quickly realized it wasn’t. If/when they fight again you’ll see Brock exposed for what he is. And when he loses I don’t want to hear you crying about his having to deal with some phantom illness.
You seem to be really biased towards wrestlers, and that’s fine. But, saying Carwin [who I think would beat Lesnar] can manhandle Mir is a bit absurd. You really don’t think Mir has trained to make his weaknesses less so? Carwin is not a better striker. He has better one punch power, but he is not a better striker.
Really we won’t know until the fight goes on but I’d bet dollars to donuts it won’t be the cakewalk you’re predicting, and I doubt it goes the way you think it will either.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
[quote]Amiright wrote:
I could do without mir v lesnar III… I don’t want to pay money for the same predictable outcome [/quote]
The outcome where Mir subbed Lesnar or where Lesnar TKO’d Mir?[/quote]
I actually can’t wait for Mir-Lesnar III. It looks like Mir’s been training his ass off for the sole purpose of avenging that loss. I’ve maintained that if he stuck to his gameplan instead of shooting for the sub out of the gate he could’ve won their second fight.[/quote]
Did you see the fight? His game plan went south of the border when Lesnar took him down and beat him like a red headed step child. There won’t be a rematch if Carwin wins and I don’t see how Mir stops Carwin, do you?
I’d like anyone to give me a scenario of how Mir beats Carwin. And don’t say ground submission as I think Carwin will be far too smart for that, he won’t give him a limb the way Lesnar did in their first fight.
It stays standing if Carwin wants, it goes to the ground if Carwin wants.
[/quote]
Dude, your not so subtle man crush is clouding what was right in front of you. Mirs corner devised a gameplan that Mir never even tried. Mir dove in for an easy sub thinking it was gonna be like the first time around and quickly realized it wasn’t. If/when they fight again you’ll see Brock exposed for what he is. And when he loses I don’t want to hear you crying about his having to deal with some phantom illness.
You seem to be really biased towards wrestlers, and that’s fine. But, saying Carwin [who I think would beat Lesnar] can manhandle Mir is a bit absurd. You really don’t think Mir has trained to make his weaknesses less so? Carwin is not a better striker. He has better one punch power, but he is not a better striker.
Really we won’t know until the fight goes on but I’d bet dollars to donuts it won’t be the cakewalk you’re predicting, and I doubt it goes the way you think it will either.[/quote]
I just want to say that I think Lesnar will predictable ground and pound Mir as well, but I am self admittedly man crushing on Lesnar and most wrestlers. Hey, at least I can admit it unlike some ppl.
I think we’ll see Carwin agst Lesnar anyways and I honestly think Lesnar will win that too. Excited to see him face Cain (Velasquez) though.
I really hope Cole Konrad (training partner of Lesnar and also an NCAA champ, and friend of mine) continues to do MMA (and win) so we can see him in the UFC soon. Also I really hope my boy Volkmann steps up his striking game ASAP. Although I know him and would always hope he wins, I really think he has some of the ugliest stand up in the UFC. I hope he can really show what he’s capable of in his next fight at (UFC) Fight Night on 3-31-10
JIC you’re interested: Cole Konrad (Brock Lesnar's Training Partner) in his first MMA fight. - YouTube
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]drewh wrote:
Mir is 10 pouns bigger tops, the Lesnar fight he decided to come in smaller so he could be faster.[/quote]
Maybe in total scale weight, but he’s put on 20-25 lbs of muscle since he stepped into the ring with Lesnar. He has stated this several times himself.[/quote]
No every article says he’s put on 20-25 pounds he being FRANK MIR HIMSELF has stated he has put on 20 25 pounds of which only some is new muscle the rest of the weight has always been there he just came in lighter for the second fight.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I’d like anyone to give me a scenario of how Mir beats Carwin.
[/quote]
Ground submission
Oh. Didn’t realize Carwin was unsubmittable. Carry on, Vegas is a fool for setting Mir as the favorite.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Well, it kind of depends on what your point of reference is. You’re just not going to see too many guys in MMA (actually none really) who have “good” boxing compared to elite professional boxers. So, that’s kind of an unrealistic expectation.
Just like you aren’t gonna see many MMA guys with kickboxing/muay thai skills like elite level kickboxing/MT guys. Or you aren’t gonna see too many with wrestling skills like elite level international wrestlers. Or submission skills like elite level submission artists.
When such people do enter into MMA (provided that they don’t absolutely suck at the other aspects of MMA), they usually move up the ranks fairly quickly. Anderson, Lesnar, Henderson, Penn, Maia (even though he has weak striking, he’s beaten some good fighters and is getting a shot at Silva next), etc…[/quote]
If I was to use a reference point, it wouldn’t be top level elite boxers, I understand thats hardly a fair comparison considering the all for one vs jack of all trades approach. Rather I would say in comparison to the top level strikers in the UFC. George St Pierre for example, I think has excellent striking and his boxing is pretty good even though he is favoring wrestling lately. Cro cop’s striking was pretty damn good in Dream, not much head movement, but he was good at getting out of the pocket and then getting back in while switching up strikes.
There’s many more fighters I could go on about, but I won’t, I’m just saying I’m still of the opinion that the level of striking is so lacking in the UFC (MMA in a general fairs a little better in some other organizations) I think because the majority of fighters come from wrestling or BJJ backgrounds, with very little experience as strikers until they get into MMA.
[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Well, it kind of depends on what your point of reference is. You’re just not going to see too many guys in MMA (actually none really) who have “good” boxing compared to elite professional boxers. So, that’s kind of an unrealistic expectation.
Just like you aren’t gonna see many MMA guys with kickboxing/muay thai skills like elite level kickboxing/MT guys. Or you aren’t gonna see too many with wrestling skills like elite level international wrestlers. Or submission skills like elite level submission artists.
When such people do enter into MMA (provided that they don’t absolutely suck at the other aspects of MMA), they usually move up the ranks fairly quickly. Anderson, Lesnar, Henderson, Penn, Maia (even though he has weak striking, he’s beaten some good fighters and is getting a shot at Silva next), etc…[/quote]
If I was to use a reference point, it wouldn’t be top level elite boxers, I understand thats hardly a fair comparison considering the all for one vs jack of all trades approach. Rather I would say in comparison to the top level strikers in the UFC. George St Pierre for example, I think has excellent striking and his boxing is pretty good even though he is favoring wrestling lately. Cro cop’s striking was pretty damn good in Dream, not much head movement, but he was good at getting out of the pocket and then getting back in while switching up strikes.
There’s many more fighters I could go on about, but I won’t, I’m just saying I’m still of the opinion that the level of striking is so lacking in the UFC (MMA in a general fairs a little better in some other organizations) I think because the majority of fighters come from wrestling or BJJ backgrounds, with very little experience as strikers until they get into MMA.
[/quote]
Well, like you said, a lot of guys come from a grappling background, so it takes them longer to bring their striking up to speed (if they ever get there). Cro Cop was a kickboxer to begin with, so it would only make sense that his striking would be better than someone like Velasquez’s.
GSP is just a freak athlete and seems to be able to learn just about any new skill set he puts his mind to, but his background is also a striking one (karate). Which, actually just makes the fact that his wrestling is what he has become known for pretty damn impressive (since it wasn’t his base art).
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]drewh wrote:
Mir is 10 pouns bigger tops, the Lesnar fight he decided to come in smaller so he could be faster.[/quote]
Maybe in total scale weight, but he’s put on 20-25 lbs of muscle since he stepped into the ring with Lesnar. He has stated this several times himself.[/quote]
He said he didn’t use to do much strength training before because he felt it slowed him down. He was basically training like a bodybuilder. Now he’s been working heavy weights with strength coach Mark Philippi and says it’s worked wonders for him.
He is probably A LOT stronger now compared to his second fight with Lesnar. I would still say Lesnar is the favourite, but not overwhelmingly so.
[quote]molnes wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]drewh wrote:
Mir is 10 pouns bigger tops, the Lesnar fight he decided to come in smaller so he could be faster.[/quote]
Maybe in total scale weight, but he’s put on 20-25 lbs of muscle since he stepped into the ring with Lesnar. He has stated this several times himself.[/quote]
He said he didn’t use to do much strength training before because he felt it slowed him down. He was basically training like a bodybuilder. Now he’s been working heavy weights with strength coach Mark Philippi and says it’s worked wonders for him.
He is probably A LOT stronger now compared to his second fight with Lesnar. I would still say Lesnar is the favourite, but not overwhelmingly so.[/quote]
Right, and while he may have weighed close to the same weight at times in the past, he was not nearly as lean, muscular, and strong/athletic as he was in his fight with Kongo.
Agreed, he’ll never be able to match Lesnar strengthmwise, Lesnar is a freak athlete. But the more he can lessen the gap, the less Lesnar’s strength will play a role, and the more the two fighters’ skill levels will come into play.
Or could it be that Mir actually lost because, gasp… his skills don’t match up well with Brocks!!!
You act as if adding some weight helps prevent takedowns. Benches and squats aint gonna do shit for a sprawl (waits to here person who says it helped them)