Two Ex-GTMO Inmates Appear in AQ Vid

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
How many of these guys were released and committed acts of terror, were arrested again, or were killed?

Any numbers? [/quote]

I’m not sure it really matters. Few people pay attention to Islamic jihad and shari’ah creep. Most of the libs draw a moral equivalence between evangelicals and jihadists and immediately want to discuss Christianity whenever yet another Muslim commits some atrocity. Obama lobbied for Odinga, who wanted to enforce shari’ah law in Kenya even though there is a sizable non-Muslim population there. Bush had the Muslim Brotherhood over to the White House for Eid dinner. The libs (including Bush and the neoconservatives) think jihad is all a big joke or the result of some provocation by the US.

I say we let them all run free.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
How many of these guys were released and committed acts of terror, were arrested again, or were killed?

Any numbers?

I’m not sure it really matters. Few people pay attention to Islamic jihad and shari’ah creep. Most of the libs draw a moral equivalence between evangelicals and jihadists and immediately want to discuss Christianity whenever yet another Muslim commits some atrocity. Obama lobbied for Odinga, who wanted to enforce shari’ah law in Kenya even though there is a sizable non-Muslim population there. Bush had the Muslim Brotherhood over to the White House for Eid dinner. The libs (including Bush and the neoconservatives) think jihad is all a big joke or the result of some provocation by the US.

I say we let them all run free. [/quote]

If we sign a truce and honor their terms, perhaps they’ll let us be while they turn their focus on African and Asian nations. All the while spreading their networks, influence, and demographics through Europe. There’s plenty to keep them busy.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
So PRCal do you reject that any abuses were taking place at Guantanamo?

When I consider the way that terrorist victims have died, (ie jumping out their death from a quarter mile tall building on 9/11 to avoid burning to death, or being trapped under the wreckage of a burning nightclub in Bali, or having their head hacked off on video) or the awful ways that people will die if nuclear, chemical or biological weapons get used on us, I find it hard to have much sympathy for people in Guantanamo.

They are certainly getting way better treatment than their victims have. Besides calling a lot of that harsh treatment torture is a bit of an exaggeration.[/quote]

So you still persist with the view that everyone in Guantanamo is guilty at least by association?

Also your view of appropriate punishment seems to be very OT which given that you are Christian and feel that only the NT is relevent to you is surprising to say the least…

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Also your view of appropriate punishment seems to be very OT which given that you are Christian and feel that only the NT is relevent to you is surprising to say the least…[/quote]

what does it matter if Sifu’s views are OT, NT, Vedas, or Book of Manu, it does not make these people any less guilty of terror or of being association with terrorists.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

Also your view of appropriate punishment seems to be very OT which given that you are Christian and feel that only the NT is relevent to you is surprising to say the least…

what does it matter if Sifu’s views are OT, NT, Vedas, or Book of Manu, it does not make these people any less guilty of terror or of being association with terrorists.[/quote]

No, was going to add that he is free to believe and interpret his own religion however he sees fit. Was just surprised given that he has on a couple of posts explicitly stated that the OT is irelevant and should not be brought into any discussion of Christianity. And that Christianity is all about peace, love and forgiveness. When he starts banging on about vengence and retribution it kind of takes the wind out of his previous messages.

I take it from your post that you feel that everyone in Guantanamo is guilty.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
So PRCal do you reject that any abuses were taking place at Guantanamo?

When I consider the way that terrorist victims have died, (ie jumping out their death from a quarter mile tall building on 9/11 to avoid burning to death, or being trapped under the wreckage of a burning nightclub in Bali, or having their head hacked off on video)

Or the awful ways that people will die if nuclear, chemical or biological weapons get used on us, I find it hard to have much sympathy for people in Guantanamo.

They are certainly getting way better treatment than their victims have. Besides calling a lot of that harsh treatment torture is a bit of an exaggeration.

So you still persist with the view that everyone in Guantanamo is guilty at least by association? [/quote]

No. Actually I am concerned that there may be people there who don’t deserve to be.

On the other hand there are people in there who very much deserve to be there. I think those ones are lucky they are still alive. If they have useful information we can extract I am all for getting it out of them.

I think we can probably get a lot out of them through a sophisticated use of methods that would not be considered torture. But for those whose life could be considered forfeit anyways, I am not going to feel bad if they get mistreated in order to save some lives.

[quote]
Also your view of appropriate punishment seems to be very OT which given that you are Christian and feel that only the NT is relevent to you is surprising to say the least… [/quote]

Now you are making assumptions. I have stated neither religious affiliation nor a lack thereof. I have my own views on religion and spiritual matters. My family is C of E, I was Christened as a baby and I try to enjoy Christmas/Chanukah, but that is about it. I am not a religious person.

Besides, Jesus was a mensch. But as it says in the ten commandments: 1 ?I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

Your views on punishment on the other hand are quite British. You think incarceration is solely for the purpose of punishment. The British can’t understand the simple concept that some people in this world really are evil, dangerous, motherfuckers. That there are people who need to be kept in a place where they cannot hurt anyone else.

Just look at this excerpt from the latest bit of insanity from Britain which proves that many British can’t grasp the simple concept of protecting the community from dangerous people. This is the mentality that we are dealing with.

Ripper’s fit to be freed from Broadmoor

YORKSHIRE Ripper Peter Sutcliffe has been classified low risk and recommended for release from Broadmoor, The Sun can reveal.

The top-security hospital?s doctors have told lawyers representing the Ripper ? who murdered 13 women and tried to kill seven others ? that he is no longer dangerous.

But an ex cop on the cases said today he was ?staggered? at the suggestion Sutcliffe may eventually be released.

Retired Detective Chief Superintendent Chris Gregg, who also worked on high-profile cases such as Wearside Jack, said surviving victims would be ?aghast? at the thought.

He said: ?Like many people, I was staggered at the suggestion that Peter Sutcliffe could be considered for release.

"It is an affront to common sense if that does ever happen. He killed 13 people and attempted to kill seven others.

"If that doesn?t warrant serving a whole life behind bars I don?t know what does.?

According to a source close to Sutcliffe, the medics will support his bid to get out of Broadmoor.

According to a source close to Sutcliffe, the medics will support his bid to get out of Broadmoor.

And if Jack Straw?s Ministry of Justice agrees with their verdict, he will be moved to a medium-secure unit.

That means he would skip the high-security step of the mental hospital process and be given much more freedom.

He would then be allowed on to the streets to begin rehabilitation into society.

Their POWS. Guilt or innocence is irreverent.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
No. Actually I am concerned that there may be people there who don’t deserve to be.
[/quote]

You can be pretty sure of that.

Deserve to be there, or deserve to be incarcerated following a trial? There is a difference.

I don’t agree with the death penalty so I don’t consider anyone’s life forefit. Also, I doubt there is that much useful information that can be got from these individuals however I do agree that extreme situations call for extreme measure in terms of gathering whatever information they can.

Could have fooled me the way that you were sucking up to PRcal in previous posts. But cool, your religion is your own business.

Which was clever given that they were never in bondage in Egypt but that is a whole other post.

Where do you get that from? Incarceration should be about rehabilitation first and protection of the general public second, with deterant as the third prong. Most people fall down because they see it as being about retribution.

Your quote from the Currant Bun is totally irrelevent. Peter Sutcliffe was clearly not in his right mind when he murdered those women. He has been in a hospital for a number of years being treated. Whether he still poses a risk, I don’t know, I am not trained in mental health and I have not seen his personal records.

His trained medical health professional seems to think that he doesn’t pose a risk. Personally I wouldn’t want to take that risk but it is not my decision.

I doubt he will ever get out because there will be such an outcry in the press that the home secretary will not sign off on it.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Their POWS. Guilt or innocence is irreverent.[/quote]

Pleeze tell me this was deliberate.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Their POWS. Guilt or innocence is irreverent.

Pleeze tell me this was deliberate.[/quote]

Nope.

Oh and

At least they did not decapitate him on video.

So, you think this guy’s innocent?

What if they caught Mohammad Atta on Sept. 10th, 2001 and he denied any wrong doing.

Should they have let him go as well?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090221/wl_asia_afp/usafghanistanattacksguantanamoprisonjustice

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
At least they did not decapitate him on video.

So, you think this guy’s innocent?

What if they caught Mohammad Atta on Sept. 10th, 2001 and he denied any wrong doing.

Should they have let him go as well?[/quote]

I think that the US had 4 years to charge him with anything and despite torturing him was unable to come up with a charge therefore in all likelihood he is innocent.

Had they had evidence to arrest and charge Atta on Sept 10th then that would have been a very good thing.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Had they had evidence to arrest and charge Atta on Sept 10th then that would have been a very good thing.[/quote]

True, but for speculation sake, let’s say Atta said he was taking flying lessons as a hobby. Would it have been ok to let him go uncharged?

I read an article today which said this guy they just let go was planning on renting an apartment in and setting off an explosive to destroy the whole complex. Sort of like what happened in Russia a while back. So this is very possible.

The difference is, if the Russians caught a guy, no one would know about it, ever hear from him again, or even care.

Our own transparency will be our undoing.

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Oh and

Mohamed began his detention in April 2002 when he was seized at an airport in Pakistan for trying to travel on a friend’s passport.

So: He’s either a bad guy, or an incredibly stupid one.[/quote]

How so? Does a person traveling “on a friend’s passport” constitute ground for imprisonment in a military detention camp since 2002 (and I’m not even going into the mistreatment)?

I do not obey laws that I disagree with. That doesn’t necessarily make me a bad guy. Not anymore than Phelps is for smoking cannabis. Or any of us “punks” who shit on current copyright laws.

And as far as “incredibly stupid” goes, surely you must realize that whatever law or loophole that allowed this man to stay in Gitmo for so long is many many times more “incredibly stupid” than him traveling with someone’s passport.

Obviously someone with a fake passport would raise a red flag.

I do not think his treatment was any worse than if he were a woman guilty of adultry or a gay person in an Islamic country.

You condemn his treatment for traveling on a friend’s passport, yet give the Iranians a pass for doing worse to women who refused to wear burkas, or being for women’s rights before the Revolution.

It’s too late to act once he’s destroyed a block of apartments and killed hundreds of people.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Had they had evidence to arrest and charge Atta on Sept 10th then that would have been a very good thing.

True, but for speculation sake, let’s say Atta said he was taking flying lessons as a hobby. Would it have been ok to let him go uncharged?

I read an article today which said this guy they just let go was planning on renting an apartment in and setting off an explosive to destroy the whole complex. Sort of like what happened in Russia a while back. So this is very possible.

The difference is, if the Russians caught a guy, no one would know about it, ever hear from him again, or even care.

Our own transparency will be our undoing.[/quote]

I actually see the transparency as a strength.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Obviously someone with a fake passport would raise a red flag.

I do not think his treatment was any worse than if he were a woman guilty of adultry or a gay person in an Islamic country.

You condemn his treatment for traveling on a friend’s passport, yet give the Iranians a pass for doing worse to women who refused to wear burkas, or being for women’s rights before the Revolution.

It’s too late to act once he’s destroyed a block of apartments and killed hundreds of people.[/quote]

But the US sets itself up as a paragon of virtue therefore it needs to be held to its own high standards.