Trying Twice a Day Training

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

I have just completed two cycles of Chad Waterbury’s BBB program, a four day split. This after a long time doing stuff like TBT which did nothing but burn me out.

My goal is hypertrophy, plain and simple. I’m going to give twice-a-day training a shot.

Here is my routine and diet plan… any advice or critique would be great.
(I stole the exercises from the BBB program)

Training MON,TUES, THURS,FRI

Workout #1 - AM
(3 x 4-6, 90s rest)
Flat DB bench
Seated rows
Semi-supinated chin-ups
Semi-supinated standing military DB press

Workout #1 - PM
(3 x 12-15, 90s rest)
45’ Incline DB press
45’ Incline DB row
Standing BB curl
Reverse-grip triceps press-down

Workout #2 - AM
(3 x 4-6, 90s rest)
Front squats
Hanging leg raise
Decline sit-ups
Standing calf raise in rack

Workout #2 - PM
(3 x 12-15, 90s rest)
Hack squats
Lying leg raises
Lying leg curls
Calf press machine

— Nutrition and Supplementation —

7:00 Wake up: 1 scoop Grow! and a banana
7:30 Training - 1/2 serving Surge during, one after
9:30 PWO Meal - Brown rice, 2 cans tuna
12:00 Lunch - 0.5 pounds extra lean ground beef burger
2:00 Snack - beef burger, apple
3:30 Training - 1/2 serving Surge during, one after
5:30 0.8 pounds salmon grilled
7:30 4 whole jumbo eggs
10:00 2 scoops Metabolic Drive, 1 spoon natural peanut butter

Calories: 4402
Protein 43%, Carbs 27%, Fat 31%

Before this I was taking in about 4000 cals/day with similar ratio.

Thanks!

Wakiki

2

How early are you waking up? The only note is that if you are waking early in the morning, the weights you are using will likely be much lower than what you will be used to and it will require more work in order to feel “warmed up”. Just personal observations from when i’ve tried to workout early in the morning.

3

[quote]That One Guy wrote:
How early are you waking up? The only note is that if you are waking early in the morning, the weights you are using will likely be much lower than what you will be used to and it will require more work in order to feel “warmed up”. Just personal observations from when i’ve tried to workout early in the morning.[/quote]

That’s a good point. I understood that it’s better to put the more neurally-demanding workout in the AM, hence the heavier sets then.
I am thinking of warming up with 10 minutes of moderate treadmill work.

I usually wake up at 7:45, and work out at 3:30 or 4:00.
This will definitely be a change waking up at 7:00 and training 1/2 hr later.

------Is anyone doing twice-a-day training? Any advice?

4

You know, as knowledgable as these coaches are, I would never use their workout routines (although I have encorporated a few of CT’s things to bust plateaus at some points). I think it makes people over think things and just waste time doing programs that are all over the place.

A lot of people will probably disagree with me who are all about following these programs religiously, but I don’t see why more people just don’t use a 1 or 2 a day bodypart split routine and leave this other stuff alone.

Since your goal is hypertrophy why don’t you just use a simple, proven split, and go once a day. This two a day stuff just seems over complicated, and you will probably end up burning out on this too.

Do something Like:
Monday-biceps/triceps/ calves
Tuesday-Legs
Wednesday-Chest/calves
Thursday-Back
Friday-Shoulders/calves/forearms

Rinse and repeat.

IMO just looking at the program you wrote down makes me shake my head, but hey thats just me.

5

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
You know, as knowledgable as these coaches are, I would never use their workout routines (although I have encorporated a few of CT’s things to bust plateaus at some points).

I think it makes people over think things and just waste time doing programs that are all over the place. A lot of people will probably disagree with me who are all about following these programs religiously, but I don’t see why more people just don’t use a 1 or 2 a day bodypart split routine and leave this other stuff alone.

Since your goal is hypertrophy why don’t you just use a simple, proven split, and go once a day. This two a day stuff just seems over complicated, and you will probably end up burning out on this too.

Do something Like:
Monday-biceps/triceps/ calves
Tuesday-Legs
Wednesday-Chest/calves
Thursday-Back
Friday-Shoulders/calves/forearms

Rinse and repeat.

IMO just looking at the program you wrote down makes me shake my head, but hey thats just me.[/quote]

I have been pleased with my progress on BBB. However all these coaches are saying that 2x/day is the best way to make gains, if you can hack it. The whole idea of g-flux (Berardi) makes a lot of sense to me - more calories and more exercise.

FYI, BBB was the first time I did a serious split - I was sold on total body training since I started (1.5 years) but after a while it just drained me and I was overtrained. The split has made training worthwhile again.

Is there a specific routine (exercises sets reps) you would suggest? I am more than dedicated, so whatever I have to do will be done. Thanks!

6

I have made my best gains by pretty much annihilating the muscle that I am working that day. I do very high volume (anywhere from 18-24 sets per muscle group) and I usually stay in the 8-12 rep range.

If I’m training legs, I make sure walking up the stairs is like walking barefoot on glass. If I train shoulders, I don’t want to be able to raise my arms above my head when I’m done etc etc.

As long as you are getting plenty of calories I believe this method of training is extremely effective. I eat 5600-6000 calories every day.

The workout plan you have listed just seems like a waste of time to my eye (no offense). I mean just looking at the first day, it just seems so ridiculous.

Why is it more effective to do 2 chest exercises, having to go twice a day to accomplish this, while throwing in a random bicep and tricep exercise or w/e. I just dont see how you expect to grow from this.

Is it not more effective to devote 60-70 mins on monday to just your chest and doing this?

4x 8-12 DB or BB bench press
4x 8-12 Incline DB or BB press
4x 8-12 decline BB press
4x 12-15 flys
and then doing like 4 drop sets on a bench press machine to finish off with a burnout.

It just seems obvious to me that doing something like I listed will work a whole lot better than having to go twice a day and only doing 2 chest exercises.

What this all boils down to is, You CANNOT and WILL NOT sufficiently fatigue/work each muscle group with your current routine, and you will probably experience very limited if any muscle growth, unless you are still experiencing newbie gains.

Edit: If you have not yet ventured over to T-cell Alpha, where the biggest and smartest guys, and are skeptical of what I’m telling you check out some of the threads over there if you need reassurance. They will tell you the same thing I am, but probably with less volume.

7

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Why is it more effective to do 2 chest exercises, having to go twice a day to accomplish this, while throwing in a random bicep and tricep exercise or w/e. I just dont see how you expect to grow from this.

Is it not more effective to devote 60-70 mins on monday to just your chest and doing this?

4x 8-12 DB or BB bench press
4x 8-12 Incline DB or BB press
4x 8-12 decline BB press
4x 12-15 flys
and then doing like 4 drop sets on a bench press machine to finish off with a burnout.[/quote]

Thanks for writing so much. I think I’m willing to try something like that. As they say, the training program that will work is the one you aren’t doing right now.

Would you mind posting a full week routine along the lines of the split you mentioned? I am just getting into the bodybuilding style… still used to smaller sets and max loads.

Also, do you pay attention to rest periods, or just “feel” them out?

Wakiki

8

No problem. As for the rest, since I train most of my set to failure I tend to “feel out” my rests to make sure I am recovered enough to at least get 8 reps again. But generally I;l rest anywhere from 1 minute for isolations and up to 2 mins for something like squats. Heres what my routine looks like.

Monday:biceps/triceps/calves

donkey calf raises 4x20-25
standing calf raises 4x 20-25
seated calf raise 4x 20-25

standing bb curl: 4x 8-10
seated dumbell hammer curls: 4x 8-12
Preacher curl: 4x 8-12
alernating dumbell curls: 4x 8-12
2 or 3 sets of “21’s”

Overhead DB tricep extensions: 4x 10-12
tricep pushdown: 4x 8-12
reverse grip pushdowns: 4x 8-12 supersetted w/ cable kickbacks: 4 x 10-12
dips: 3x 12

Tuesday: Legs

Squats: 4x8
Front squat: 4x8
SLDL: 4x8
Lunges: 4x 8 each leg
leg curls: 4x10
Leg extensions: 4x12

Wednesday: chest calves
the chest workout is the same as I listed earlier and calf workout is same as monday

Thursday: Back

wide grip Pulldowns: 2x8 2x6
Pulldowns with the Tbar grip(pronated): 4x8
dumb bell rows: 4x12
machine rows: 4x10 (one arm at a time)
4x 12 wide grip pullups
and depending how I fell 4x8 of T-bar rows

Friday:Shoulders/calves/forearms

Calf workout is same as monday

DB shoulder press: 2x10 2x8
side raises: 4x12
Front raises 4x8-12
Machine shoulder press: heaviest weight I can handle to failure, then 4 drop sets, each to failure

Seated wrist curls with BB on bench: 4x15
do other various forearm exercises with DB’s that I don’t know the name for lol. Usually 12-15 sets total for forearms.

After friday I usually just start the split over on saturday. I don’t take many off days, maybe 2 max a month. Obviously you can take saturday and sunday off if you want though.

9

stats?

10

[quote]mr popular wrote:
stats?[/quote]

Yah since you listed your diet, it would help if you told us your height, weight, estimated BF %, and experience

11

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
mr popular wrote:
stats?

Yah since you listed your diet, it would help if you told us your height, weight, estimated BF %, and experience[/quote]

Absolutely-

I’m 25, 5’7, 160, about 18% - Basically I have a very small belly.

Experience: Been lifting seriously since my T-Nation join date (June 2007) So almost exactly a year and a half.

Programs I have done: Velocity Diet (used to weigh close to 190)

TBT, QD, BBB, TBT again, WM, Bill Starr 5x5, BBB again 2 cycles.

So I have some fat to lose (not sure about accuracy of my digital scale) but not a lot, my goal right now is to build muscle. In fact it is my priority right now, aside from work it gets precedence over absolutely everything.

12

[quote]wakiki wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
mr popular wrote:
stats?

Yah since you listed your diet, it would help if you told us your height, weight, estimated BF %, and experience

Absolutely-

I’m 25, 5’7, 160, about 18% - Basically I have a very small belly.

Experience: Been lifting seriously since my T-Nation join date (June 2007) So almost exactly a year and a half.

Programs I have done: Velocity Diet (used to weigh close to 190)

TBT, QD, BBB, TBT again, WM, Bill Starr 5x5, BBB again 2 cycles.

So I have some fat to lose (not sure about accuracy of my digital scale) but not a lot, my goal right now is to build muscle. In fact it is my priority right now, aside from work it gets precedence over absolutely everything.[/quote]

Ok so have you ever tried a traditional body building split before? I’m not sure what BBB and QD is so maybe you have. It might be the missing piece for you.

As far as your diet goes, for your weight I think 4400 is a pretty good amount of calories to get good gains from, but you might have to adjust it at some points. Just watch the mirror.

Two suggestions I have: First off, I would suggest switching the brown rice in your PWO meal with a simple carb, like pasta. Pasta is fastly digested, and will replenish glycogen stores faster, blah blah blah. Essentially it will help you put on more muscle. Brown rice is a complex carb and will be digested through out the day, giving you a steady supply of energy, pasta will spike you, and thats exactly what you need after lifting.

Secondly, if you are bent on doing this twice a day training your post workout meal for your second session is completely lacking carbs. I always suggest using a 2:1 ratio of carbs to protein for your PWO meal so you might want to tweak that. Other than that If you have the time for a better brakfast I would suggest 1- 1 1/2 cups of oatmeal + 6 scrambled eggs. Its the breakfast of champions. If you can learn to handle that much food in one sitting, especially at breakfast, you will thank yourself later.

13

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Ok so have you ever tried a traditional body building split before? I’m not sure what BBB and QD is so maybe you have. It might be the missing piece for you.

As far as your diet goes, for your weight I think 4400 is a pretty good amount of calories to get good gains from, but you might have to adjust it at some points. Just watch the mirror.

Two suggestions I have: First off, I would suggest switching the brown rice in your PWO meal with a simple carb, like pasta. Pasta is fastly digested, and will replenish glycogen stores faster, blah blah blah. Essentially it will help you put on more muscle. Brown rice is a complex carb and will be digested through out the day, giving you a steady supply of energy, pasta will spike you, and thats exactly what you need after lifting.

Secondly, if you are bent on doing this twice a day training your post workout meal for your second session is completely lacking carbs. I always suggest using a 2:1 ratio of carbs to protein for your PWO meal so you might want to tweak that. Other than that If you have the time for a better brakfast I would suggest 1- 1 1/2 cups of oatmeal + 6 scrambled eggs. Its the breakfast of champions. If you can learn to handle that much food in one sitting, especially at breakfast, you will thank yourself later.

[/quote]

I have decided against the twice-a-day idea, and instead will just adopt a bodybuilding-style split.

4400 calories would take effort (that’s fine). Would you recommend lower intake on off days? I’m thinking a four day split here.

Very solid point on the brown rice… I’m eating it right now PWO and I will get some pasta by tomorrow!

As far as breakfast, I thought the idea behind eating just the whites in the morning was that the fat in the yolks would slow down digestion, and in the morning we want to shuttle the carbs/protein in asap.

My diet becomes (no 2x day PWO anymore)

8:00 - 6 egg whites and 3 yolks, 1.5 cups oatmeal
11:00 - 0.5 lb lean beef burger
1:30 - 0.5 lb lean beef burger
3:00 - Banana and 1 scoop Grow! Whey
3:30 - 1 serving Surge during, 1 serving Surge PWO
6:00 - 2 cups spaghetti and 0.8 lbs grilled salmon
8:00 - 4 whole jumbo eggs
10:30 - 2 scoops Metabolic Drive, 1 spoon natural peanut butter

Calories: 4343
40% protein, 26% carbs, 34% fat

14

[quote]wakiki wrote:

I have decided against the twice-a-day idea, and instead will just adopt a bodybuilding-style split.[/quote]

My man!

I personally never lower my calorie intake on off days. The only time I take an off day is when I’m completely gased, so I actually try to eat more to fuel the repairs my body needs to make. But depending on how many off days you take and how often you take them, you might want to lower your calories by a few hundred. It really depends on you.

[quote]Very solid point on the brown rice… I’m eating it right now PWO and I will get some pasta by tomorrow!

As far as breakfast, I thought the idea behind eating just the whites in the morning was that the fat in the yolks would slow down digestion, and in the morning we want to shuttle the carbs/protein in asap.[/quote]

That may be true, but oatmeal is slow digesting anyways so I don’t think it would hurt. Besides the yolk is so nutrient dense, I just feel its a waste to not eat it, you’ll get a couple hundred extra calories from the yolks alone. I’m much more concerned with that then my absorption rate being slowed by 10% or something for the next 30 mins. (not to mention egg whites are fucking expensive.)

[quote]My diet becomes (no 2x day PWO anymore)

8:00 - 6 egg whites and 3 yolks, 1.5 cups oatmeal
11:00 - 0.5 lb lean beef burger
1:30 - 0.5 lb lean beef burger
3:00 - Banana and 1 scoop Grow! Whey
3:30 - 1 serving Surge during, 1 serving Surge PWO
6:00 - 2 cups spaghetti and 0.8 lbs grilled salmon
8:00 - 4 whole jumbo eggs
10:30 - 2 scoops Metabolic Drive, 1 spoon natural peanut butter

Calories: 4343
40% protein, 26% carbs, 34% fat[/quote]

Diet looks good, nutrient breakdown is where it needs to be. I think you will make some nice gains.

15

So my plan is to finish this week of BBB, and have a few things in place to start my split next week:

  • Measuring tape to start taking measurements, because scale etc won’t be a clear enough indicator of my goal (gaining mass)

  • Clear plan (need to look up a few of those exercises)

  • New foods (flavored oatmeal - no way I can stomach 1 or 1.5 cups of plain oatmeal, pasta and sauce, more Metabolic Drive (yikes I’m low)

  • Reschedule music session for Saturday (usually Wed after work)

The only thing kind of holding me back is my body fat % - have a lingering doubt if I should be “bulking” instead of leaning down. Of course, committing to this means putting that goal on the back burner. I’m a little paranoid since I’m a FFB (former fat boy). But hell right now there’s no girlfriend etc so I guess this is a good time. Anyways thanks for all your help. I think I’ll use this thread as a journal of sorts.

16

no problem.

Btw you’re right about the oatmeal. What I do for flavor is use vanilla flavored soy milk ( my parents always stock up on this for some reason haha). While you might feel gay buying it, it sure makes the oatmeal taste yummy. Whatever you do though DO NOT use brown sugar as your flavor haha.

No offense bro, but if you cut, you’d probably just be skinny-fat. You need to build a significant muscle base first. I know thats not what you want to hear, but its what you have to do before you can have a worthwhile cut. Yes, you will gain some fat, but who cares about 1-2% more BF when you have an extra 20 lbs of muscle to go with it?

Anyways, good luck. If you need any help PM me.

17

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
no problem.

Btw you’re right about the oatmeal. What I do for flavor is use vanilla flavored soy milk ( my parents always stock up on this for some reason haha). While you might feel gay buying it, it sure makes the oatmeal taste yummy. Whatever you do though DO NOT use brown sugar as your flavor haha.

No offense bro, but if you cut, you’d probably just be skinny-fat. You need to build a significant muscle base first. I know thats not what you want to hear, but its what you have to do before you can have a worthwhile cut. Yes, you will gain some fat, but who cares about 1-2% more BF when you have an extra 20 lbs of muscle to go with it?

Anyways, good luck. If you need any help PM me.[/quote]

For the record…that is exactly what happened to me. +30 lbs with only 2% fat gain this summer.

Anyway, I just wrote this in my log, but I tried a 2-a-day today and it’s total garbage. I didn’t feel more rested for the second workout and I find it to be a huge waste of supplements. Plus, I can’t imagine its good for your body to be indulging in x2 as much sugar for x2 as many workouts. Anyway, I’m in favor of 1 long-ass workout, even though my 2-a-day went a total of 75 minutes.

18

[quote]acelement wrote:
For the record…that is exactly what happened to me. +30 lbs with only 2% fat gain this summer.

Anyway, I just wrote this in my log, but I tried a 2-a-day today and it’s total garbage. I didn’t feel more rested for the second workout and I find it to be a huge waste of supplements. Plus, I can’t imagine its good for your body to be indulging in x2 as much sugar for x2 as many workouts. Anyway, I’m in favor of 1 long-ass workout, even though my 2-a-day went a total of 75 minutes.
[/quote]

Yeah, I actually packed my gear Sunday night and woke up yesterday morning at 6:45 with the intention of seeing how I feel. I couldn’t see actually getting into a workout that early. On the upside, the next hour of sleep was pure awesomeness.

Anyways I am going to take the plunge and not worry about my bf% so much right now. I’m going to weigh and measure every week (or 2, haven’t decided yet) and I’ll adjust calories depending on what I see.

By the way, I’ve been doing 10-15 minutes of treadmill work as a warmup recently, that is the only cardio I have been doing. It literally warms me up (cold outside, especially after a drive on the scooter).
2 questions on that though:

  • Do you think I should stick with it for warming up?
  • Should I add cardio to my 5 day split, and if so how… maybe 15 mins after each session?