Truth About Soy?

Here is an article written by Dr. Dave, who has a website selling various products and a daily email touting fish oil.

It would be sweet if guys like Lonnie Lowery and some of our scientifically inclined t-people responded to it.

Its long, but reads quickly; if you’re too busy to read it, it can be summed up as: “Soy estrogens are not human estrogens, and they do not behave just
like human estrogens - don’t believe everything you read. However, its not 100% proven to have favorable health benefits either. Fish oil does though.”

" The Truth About SOY! Part 1"

Or more BAD information from the Alternative Health Gurus!!!

Today’s topic is a fun one for me because there is so much misinformation about soy and soy products propagated by people who have not closely examined the facts. In many cases there are simple knee jerk reactions that could be avoided if there person did their research.

Worse some of these people know better and in my opinion are deliberately
spreading information they know or should know is wrong if they are real doctors! They know that shock value sells and gets their stuff read . . . positions them as experts. They also know that most people will not have the resources to prove them wrong.

I DO!!!

First off let’s talk about why soy is so popular.

A lot of its popularity comes from examining long lived populations and
noticing that they have a few things in common.

The Japanese and Okinawans have some of the longest lived people on earth, and in the largest numbers.

Therefore some people have concluded that if we follow their diets, we
can live a long time too.

Unfortunately this is a gross oversimplification. I don’t think that the average 45 year old man in poor physical condition with a family history of high blood pressure and heart disease, 2 spoiled brat kids , and unhappy wife and an ungratifying job is going to save more than a year or 2 of his pathetic hide by eating a Japanese diet.

If he were to adopt other behaviors such as daily meditation, regular
physical activity and genuine good old fashioned friendship family and community as well as regular PLAYTIME like a kid, then the diet would do a lot more good.

Bottom line: contentedness and happiness and low stress or dealing with
stress in
a positive fashion counts big time!

Next, a little reminder that trailing the Japanese by only a few months
in
longevity are the Icelanders.

Like the Japanese, they smoke and drink quite a bit.

Like the Japanese they consume large amounts of Omega 3 essential fatty
acid Fish
Oil.

There is no SOY in Iceland!

Since I have been told not to be cryptic in my writing, I will say the
obvious:
If there is any one thing that keeps people alive longer in both of
these
populations, it is not Soy, but FISH OIL!
I think both populations would live a lot longer if they got their Fish
Oil from
supplements that were pure instead of Fish that were tainted.
Japanese women also have a lower rate of breast cancer
than
Western women. Soy has been cited as a main reason for this.

Remember the island of Japan was exposed to not 1 but 2 nuclear bombs
and has
tons of air pollution because of the population density.

Again there is a fair amount of alcohol consumption and cigarettes are
common.
Japan still remains one of the highest per capita consumers of tobacco
products
in the world.

And yet in spite of all these environmental factors, they have a lower
incidence
of many kinds of cancer.
If you take people of Japanese descent and follow them after they move
here, they
start getting “Western”
Diseases with the same rate as non Japanese.

The role of soy in this is unclear, but one thing is for certain.
Native
Japanese women consume larger amounts of soy and soy products by far
than there
American counterparts from birth on.

Therein lies the first problem: from birth on. No one really knows if
a 45 year
old woman starts taking soy or soy products at that age whether she’ll
get any
benefit at all.

Do we need them from birth?

Next is the phrase “soy product”. There are a lot of soy products out
there from
soy milk to soy vitamins.

Which ones are beneficial.

Most of the “soy isoflavones” which are the typical soy capsules
contain a
“Phytoestrogen” called Genistein as the main ingredient. There are
several
others in there too.

A Phytoestrogen is a plant estrogen that helps the plant control its
reproductive
cycles.

There are some distinct chemical similarities to human estrogen which
evolutionists use to support Darwin’s theories.

But, to say that soy estrogens behave exactly like human estrogens (
any more
than horse estrogens like Premarin tm do !!) is misleading and just
flat out
WRONG.

This is where a lot of Gurus show their ignorance. They make the
assumption that
since soy products have estrogens, they must be bad for you since
Western men and
women tend to suffer form “Estrogen Excess”.

They often site them as causing feminization in men, breast cancer in
women, and
other problems associated with too much estrogen.

One guru recently went so far as to point out that soy products are the
new fake
health food used by the low carb diet industry to replace carbs in
flour products
etc.
He went on to make all the mistakes I mentioned above.

Hundreds of thousands of people read his stuff and believe it. Dozens
of other
gurus will be parroting his newsletters any day now.

“The Truth About Soy Part 2”

Ok, in order to continue this discussion, let’s remind ourselves of a
few things.

While soy has estrogen like properties and his distantly related to the
estrogens
found in humans, it does not behave just like human estrogen.

Hormones are very complicated things, a fact that some of the
Alternative health
gurus seem to have forgotten or never learned in the first place.

The Phytoestrogens in soy (plant estrogens like Genistein and Daidzein)
can
weakly bind to human estrogen receptors.

Once they or any hormone is bound, it causes a series of events called
“post
receptor, or second messenger actions”.

In English this means that something happens INSIDE the cell as a
result of this
binding.

If our friends that are pointing to soy as a bad thing would remember
this fact,
they would also remember that without this action, nothing much would
happen.

This is exactly what happens with soy isoflavones. They bind to
estrogen
receptors because they have some similarities to human estrogens, but
nothing
much happens inside the cell. They kinda just sit there.

They do not disrupt the hormonal axis of the body greatly, they do not
cause the
same post receptor actions that real human estrogens do, and they don’t
seem to
contribute to breast cancer or other cancers.

Not too long ago a lady in my practice went to the surgeon who had done
her
breast cancer surgery.

I did not know she was taking soy and neither did the surgeon. When
she told the
surgeon, she (the surgeon was a she) went ballistic and screamed at her
that this
would bring her breast cancer back.

The truth is this makes absolutely no sense. By blocking the estrogen
receptors
and preventing human estrogens, which could actually do something in
the cell
from binding, the soy proteins probably confer at least a little
protection.

Again we are really not sure because soy vitamins are not soy foods,
but still it
makes plenty of sense biochemically.

Now a few more good things about soy.

Since estrogens have been implicated in prostate cancer too, it appears
that soy
may reduce the incidence of that also, again by a blocking action at
the site of
the receptor.

By the way receptor blockade is nothing new in medicine. It is used
for all
kinds of drugs from high blood pressure to lowering cholesterol.

Again I am surprised that some of our guru friends out there who claim
to be real
doctors don’t remember this.

By similar mechanisms soy has been shown to reduce post menopausal bone
loss in
women (osteoporosis), heat flashes, and lower bad cholesterol when
accompanied by
a totally vegan diet.

Now lest you think I am pro soy here are some Bad things about soy.

It doesn’t seem to work for everyone, especially with regards to
menopausal
symptoms.

It is loaded with fat, and a lot of it is Omega 6 fat. 51% to be exact
with only
7% Omega 3’s.

So if you take a lot of say products, balance them out with Fish Oil to
keep your
Omega 3 to 6 ratios favorable.

As far as a protein source, I do occasionally use soy. But I use it in
its food
form (miso, tofu, tempeh), not in pill form. Frankly there are far
better
protein sources unless you are a Vegan.

So in summary here is the TRUTH.

  1. We don’t know if soy is the reason that Oriental women have longer
    lives, or
    lower risks of breast cancer, but if it is , it should probably
    consumed from
    birth and in Food form, not pill form.

This is in direct contrast to Fish Oil. We know from studies that the
active
ingredients in fish are the Omega 3 fatty acids, because they are the
only
elements of fish that are essential to our diet. Everything else can
be gotten
from other food stuffs.

Soy proteins which wind up in vitamin capsules have not been shown to
be the only
active ingredient.

As with most plants there are many things in soy that could be
contributing to
health benefits. We have not studied MOST plants well enough to know
what is
actually in them, nor have all of these chemicals been synthesized in a
lab yet
and studied separately.

When this happens we can look at which ingredients are most important.

Don’t be too surprised if this turns out to be all or most of them! As
a fan of
Mother Nature I hate the way Western Science always has to try to “Dis
Integrate”
a compound to find out what makes it tick. Sometimes it’s the whole
ball of wax
that is needed.

  1. Soy estrogens are not human estrogens, and they do not behave just
    like human
    estrogens.
    As women age the dominant estrogen becomes one called estrone. High
    levels of
    estrone have been implicated in causing Breast cancer, Uterine Cancer,
    heart
    attacks, stroke, and blood clots, all the same things that oral
    PREMARIN seems to
    cause.

Soy estrogens are estrogen receptor blockers much like breast cancer
medicines
and medicines that fight osteoporosis. It is highly unlikely (but not
yet truly
known) whether they can promote cancer.

If you consume soy for health benefits, start it early in your life and
take it
as food. Again this is based on scientific studies. No one knows for
sure what
it does for first time users who are post menopausal. My guess is it
probably
does help.

Fish Oil does everything health wise that soy claims to do and there
is
definitive proof. And you can start it anytime in your life and still
see the
benefits! You decide!!! Best, Doc

bump.

I know one thing: it isn’t clear cut. For instance there’s some new research that gives soja a new edge. Here it heightens your LH, Dht(when even at the same time decreasing prostate weight). More LH is more test remember boys!
I seems that soya first inhibits, but after a while it’s just the opposite.
The first research study’s were short in duration, this is a lifelong reproduction of soja feeding experiment.
Lund TD, Munson DJ, Haldy ME, Setchell KD, Lephart ED, Handa RJ. Equol is a novel anti-androgen that inhibits prostate growth and hormone feedback. Biol Reprod. 2004 Apr;70(4):1188-95. [PubMed]
Mark McVey, Gerard Cooke, Ivan Curran… Increased serum and testicular androgen levels in F1 rats with lifetime exposure to soy isoflavones. Reproductive Toxicology (2004), doi:10.1016/j.reprotox.2004.04.005.

Yes, it seems like most things we talk about aren’t clear cut on the nutrition side.

I guess moderation is the safest way to go, don’t lean towards one extreme more than other unless you’re in a very specific nutirtional phase, ie. cutting cycle.

For what it is worth here is my opinion. I am a 36 year old male who has trained consistently for the past 15 years and I am interested in staying strong and lean and overall healthy. So, I ask myself the question, ?Will consuming ANY quantity of ANY soy product help me accomplish this?? Regardless of the debate of the pros and cons of soy the answer to the above question is definitively no… In addition to the answer being no, other definitive factors are that there are much better protein sources available, and other than occasionally having a little miso soup or putting a little soy sauce on something I do not like the taste of soy (soy patties, tofu, etc.) So, in the end I really do not care.

It is hard for me to imagine that, assuming for now that soy will not elevate estrogen, one could not be benifited by soy intake. I say this not b/c of its possible cancer prevention powers or other wonders, but only b/c it is a very cheap protein source, and it occurs in just about every protein bar. B/c of the information on this site, I have generally avoided soy, but, if I were to find out that it did not elevate estrogen, i would consume soy shakes (which I can get really cheaply), and I would more frequently consume various protein bars, which i know are not the healthiest thing, but they are extremely convienient…

This article also raises a more serious tension for T-Nation readers (a tension which has appeared here before, as, for example, in yesterday’s Ian King article–which to some extent rhetorically opposed research): namely, that, in the very least for the layman, but probably also for the scientists, the interpretation of new research at times seems too hazardous to be of any immediate value.

Just a couple of months ago, T-mag ran an interview with a scientist who claimed that no solid research proved the effacacy of our now much beloved p+c meals immediately following a workout, when compared to consuming extra protein and carbs during the entire 24 hour period (or something like that) after the workout. It is not at all clear to me whether the research in those articles recently presented by Berardi disproves that. Furthermore, I would not be shocked if recommendations change a great deal over the next 10 years (just think of what has happened in the last 10).

I am not saying to ignore science–only that there is a serious difficulty here, with respect to which one would be well advised to exercise caution.

Hello T-folk,

I’m always a little wary of “Dr.s” that sell certain supplements on websites or on t.v. Then try to convince people that they are right because they are “bonafide medical doctors” or worse they have a doctorate in some obscure major…

And also remember that not all doctors graduated from med.school with an A or a B average. Some just squeeked by with C’s and D’s.

As far as the fish oil goes yes he is right on, in my opinion and we all know the benefits of it.

But as far as the soy there are alot of article by T.C.,Cy Wilson, Brock Strasser etc. with alot of studies cited that show that soy is not such a great supplement.

If a soy estrogen binds to the estrogen receptor and does nothing, then there is no need to take Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)as it binds to the receptor to keep estrogen from connecting. Try to convince Bruno your local gym roider “Hey Bruno there’s no need to take some Nolvadex, just eat and drink alot of soy products and you’ll get no bitch tits”. It would take some serious studies to convince me of this which Dr. Dave did not provide in this article.

Don’t get me wrong once and a while I do partake in some soy action. My favorite Juice bar has a protein boost that is soy powder and makes it taste better for me. So now and then it is o.k. for me.

When I take an anti-estrogen like Arimidex or M I do notice that it is esier for me to stay leaner and don’t retain as much water.

For now I will stick to a low to non existant soy intake unless there are some well planned out studies that prove otherwise.
“Sancho”

This is a really complicated issue, because although most studies show no effects of soy on Test levels, there may be some effect at the receptor or post receptor level (shown by at least one study), despite what’s presented in the above article…

floobadoo with regard to the PWO meals comment, I believe you’re referring to the interview I did a while back, and should probably clear up the misunderstanding. What I am saying is that amino acid induced protein synthesis seems to be higher an hour following a workout compared to immediately after, and that this higher level persists for at least 24h. I also mentioned that I still have my Surge ~15 min PWO, followed by another an hour later. Hope this clears some things up.

Cheers

"there may be some effect at the receptor or post receptor level (shown by at least one study), despite what’s presented in the above article… "

Interesting.
BTW, this is not an article per se, merely his thoughts. However, it is odd that he doesn’t have references since his daily email usually has quite a few.

Hey SonnyS,

I found some things that slightly bothered me about Dr. Dave’s “thoughts”.

First,He talks about a lady in his practice who had gone to a surgeon to get her breast cancer surgery done. Almost always doctors say a “female patient”. It just doesn’t sound professional to say lady. I worked in the medical field and doctors would always refer to a “patient”. Alright maybe I’m being a little too critical.

Second, He makes a point of saying her surgeon was a female surgeon, like she (surgeon) should have known better about soy. Can you imagine Dr. Dave rebuking his colleague, because she just misinformed his patient and not citing any studies(for us the reader or the surgeon) to back up his argument. Maybe a little less critical now.

Third, He really is stating that soy products block human estrogen from binding to receptors. Without any studies to back it up. Moreover, the next paragraph he brings up soy vitamins which he is insinuating(I’m almost positive he sells on his website)is what’s doing the miracle of blocking E and he is not sure how. He states “soy vitamins are not soy foods but still biochemically they should be the same”. Again I would like to see something that reinforces (Dr. Dave’s)logic, anything please!! Now I’m being critical.

Earlier in his “thoughts” he talks about anti-soy gurus and how most people will not have the resources to prove them wrong about soy. So, let’s see this soy guru (Dr.Dave) pull out the resources to prove the anti-soy gurus wrong. And I’m not going to accept “Hey I’m a real health care practitioner” for an answer.

I don’t want some condescending doctor to coerce me into thinking that he is right because he is a "Medical Doctor"as he says. I would love to hear by some endocrine specialists who backs him up with anything that would solidify his argument. That way he would have some credibility with me.

Estrogen is a complicated issue, it may not affect T-levels, but it’s my estrogen levels that I’m worried about. Especially, since I’m getting closer to Andropause as I get into my middle-ages.

There is so much more about this article to write about, but I need to get to bed to replenish my T-levels and …Damn wifey is wearing something sexy!!! Gotta go!!!
“Sancho”

so after reading this thread and getting bombarded by the news the past 3 days about the “glories & miracles” of soy I guess soy isn’t black & white as I believed from reading the supporting info on this site as well as other sites?

my concern is surrounding the fact that my folks feed my daughter soy milk in her cereal, they drink soy milk as well (in their early 50’s), and being in Hawai’i soy is a part of the everyday consumption of just about anyone (unless you don’t like tofu) here. as far as a food, it didn’t bother me personally- so now after all the black & white of soy- what gives? BTW the only soy is either shoyu or miso (which I read is the okay versions of it). But even then I have to drink at least half a gallon of water because of all that sodium.

damn i dislike being a whiny bitch sometimes.