Soy Argument: Rehashed

Nutrition
1

Hey Forum,

I know where I stand on this issue, and I never have a problem backing up my points. I do however have a problem with people believing that all this mass media CANNOT be wrong and that the benefits of this soy gold must outweight the risks (if they even have been exposed to one).

I was sitting around discussing this with my female friend (who might I add, has been told by her gyno that she is in stage 2 for cervical and other women issues after her last pap)

Her history: She’s been a vegetarian for a long long time and believes she is doing it right be consuming soy and while explaining its many benefits. I could not sit back, knowing what I know about her women’s issues, and have her be blind to the realities of soy and the dangers.

Of course, when you ask her what kind of protein source is in the hot-dog she is eating she automatically gets defensive to the fact that I am about to point out the negatives of consuming poorly processed soy products.

So I begin to state my case, tell her I can probably never convince her that the soy she eats has negative effects all over and for all. This blows up in a huge argument about how the media can’t be wrong and that’s soy is good for me and you should eating it as well. I’m the one mistaken…I guess???

I decide to do some general yahoo digging regarding soy and what do I find, article after article of the benefits of soy and how it has no estrogenic response in men whatsoever. I also have read many an article here and on

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

Regardless,I still stand on my position of my boys being in full function, my thyroid pumpin, etc etc.

Although, I would like to know what most people think about this. I am a bit worried that my friend will not consider the fact that her massive and preferntial consumption of soy based crap may have something to do with her current worries about her health. Although, after the holier than though attitude that was recieved from her, and that total disregard for my opinion I am pretty much willing to let her draw her own conclusions and suffer her own consequences.

I am excited to hear if other have had to defend their resistance to high amounts of this poison protein, and how that went. What were the backgrounds of these individuals and how did they fair in making their point.

I also remember seeing a blog from Lonnie Lowery stating there are new studies that a showing it might decrease the risk of prostate cancer via reducing sex hormone related cancers, maybe Lowery can chime in and point us to the specifics or give a professional account as to how much is too much. (I do eat soy sauce on my whole grained rice, but that isn’t highly processed, its the afterproduct of miso production I believe).

Thanks and sorry for the rant, I was just really blown away at the blinded point of view stated from an intellectual journalist who should be used to taking an objective point of view on most things in life?

Happy meat/whey eating, I know processed soy won’t be entering this body anytime soon.

Ciao

T

2

[quote]TOTrev wrote:
This blows up in a huge argument about how the media can’t be wrong …[/quote]

your mum should know better trev!
:wink:

jaystyles

3

And then there’s the empirical example of Japan… A country that has one of the highest per capita rates of soy consumption as well as one of the longest life expectancies. OK, so I also wouldn’t want the physique of the average Japanese male… but how much does any of this have to do with soy, and how much does it have to do with other (MORE IMPORTANT) factors?

From what I’ve read just on this site, I consider the effects of soy to be as yet unresolved and controversial. Even in the Protein Roundtable there was disagreement as to whether or not it was detrimental or beneficial, and that was a T-Nation brain trust! In the end, based on soy’s unresolved status, I’m not running to the store to buy blocks of tofu and cartons of soy milk.

BUT, I’m sure as hell not going to sweat the occasional bit of soy or feel the need to publicly justify the use of soy-sauce to the T-Nation readership… For the love of God, chill out! Some of the anti-soy ranting I hear on bodybuilding-oriented sites sounds just like the anti-meat crap you hear from PETA, or the crap in another thread about distilled water leaching minerals from your bones (oh no!).

Nick

4

ToTrov-

I feel your pain as well. I also have a female friend that is vegetarian and also consumes a lot of soy based products. She has hypothyroidism and i’ve read that it’s linked to excessive consumption unfermented soy. I presented that same information to her but i don’t know if she took it seriously. Pretty most of us at T-Nation are against soy so you’re not alone. Soy business is a HUGE business and you can’t fight them alone. It’d take alot of people to build cases first before they take them to the court. Much like cigarette and nictone, it takes a long time before anyone did anything about it. We’re basically screwed because soy protein is virtually found in nearly ALL processed food so that’s why i cook my own food from now on. I don’t intend to be their test subject and only to find out i have all kinds of health problems from consumung soy products. they are 100% crap!

5

[quote]The_Incubator wrote:
And then there’s the empirical example of Japan… A country that has one of the highest per capita rates of soy consumption as well as one of the longest life expectancies. OK, so I also wouldn’t want the physique of the average Japanese male… but how much does any of this have to do with soy, and how much does it have to do with other (MORE IMPORTANT) factors?

That is a huge misleading information made by soy businesses. The truth is that they consumed LESS than 10g of FERMENTED soy like miso daily even if at all! that isn’t even same as common soy products that you see on the shelves at the grocery stores!!! They also have high cancer rates in some area that aren’t common in US! Next time before you make a fool of yourself, DO SOME RESEARCHING ONLINE!

6

[quote]The_Incubator wrote:
And then there’s the empirical example of Japan… A country that has one of the highest per capita rates of soy consumption as well as one of the longest life expectancies. [/quote]

Yah, but for the longest time, there was no McDonalds.

jaystyles

7

[quote]Tungsten wrote:
That is a huge misleading information made by soy businesses. The truth is that they consumed LESS than 10g of FERMENTED soy like miso daily even if at all! that isn’t even same as common soy products that you see on the shelves at the grocery stores!!! They also have high cancer rates in some area that aren’t common in US! Next time before you make a fool of yourself, DO SOME RESEARCHING ONLINE! [/quote]

Ever lived in Japan?

Believe me, I’m intimately aware of how they consume soy. By weight and volume, tofu would be their main source. They also consume a healthy (or is it UNhealthy?) amount of fresh, boiled soybeans (edamame). Neither of which are fermented products.

Besides, you seem to be making the key point yourself. There’s different types of soy products. Some are better than others. Some have different effects than others. Well, thank you Captain Obvious!

There’s obviously a bit more subtlety to this issue than yelling and screaming about internet “research” from health freaks who recommend enemas for most of your health woes.

And there’s really nothing misleading about pointing out that a country with massive soy consumption has long life expectancy. It’s a fact. If you want to dig deeper into whether or not that correlation implies causation, fine. Frankly, having lived in Japan, I doubt soy has a goddamn thing to do with their longevity. But claiming that it’s Teh Poison Protein that will bring Instant Death doesn’t make a person sound particularly rational. Especially when it’s not bringing Teh Instant Deth to entire populations of people who stuff their faces with it.

Not yet feeling like a fool,
Nick

8

[quote]The_Incubator wrote:
And then there’s the empirical example of Japan… A country that has one of the highest per capita rates of soy consumption as well as one of the longest life expectancies. OK, so I also wouldn’t want the physique of the average Japanese male… but how much does any of this have to do with soy, and how much does it have to do with other (MORE IMPORTANT) factors?[/quote]

If you really investigate things, though, the Japanese do consume a higher average quantity of soy than most other countries. However, when compared to a vegetarian/vegan who gets a significant quantity of their protein from soy, the Japanese can’t compare.

You see, the Japanese tend to eat a fairly balanced diet, and while it does contain soy, it also contains a good portion of vegetables, fish, etc.

Also, if you read up, you’ll find that while the Japanese do have lower instances of heart disease than, for example, Americans, they have much higher rates of thyroid cancer, and other things which have been tenatively linked to soy consumption.

Note that most of the detriments of soy come from the protein and isoflavones, or from non-fermented soy products. Fermented soy, such as soy sauce and miso, don’t have the same problems (although, honestly, I’m a little worried about soy sauce, after what happened in New Zealand).

9

[quote]topher wrote:
If you really investigate things, though, the Japanese do consume a higher average quantity of soy than most other countries. However, when compared to a vegetarian/vegan who gets a significant quantity of their protein from soy, the Japanese can’t compare.

You see, the Japanese tend to eat a fairly balanced diet, and while it does contain soy, it also contains a good portion of vegetables, fish, etc.
[/quote]

This to me is the key issue that I think gets lost when soy comes up. A vegetarian/vegan diet where soy is the only protein source is very extreme. It’s just not a normal diet for a human, and that in and of itself is a problem. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are deficiencies and imbalances that go beyond the heavy soy consumption. And I doubt that the negative effects of soy they experience are relevant to the other 99.999% of us.

The soy question that is relevant to me would be phrased more along the lines of:

If I’m eating a basically healthy, whole foods diet, T-Man style, and I happen to go out for sushi with my buddies once or twice a month, and during this meal I happen to eat a dozen or two boiled soybeans, or some miso soup with tofu-chunks in it, will I:

A. Experience a complete cascade failure of my endocrine system.
B. Turn Japanese.
C. Immediately come down with funny cancers.
D. None of the above

I’m gonna have to go with D here. I just don’t think the militant alarmism is warranted for the vast majority of people.

Nick

10

Hi Trev…
Thanks for the show of support on another thread… If I may add, there was an article on T-nation called “The Poison Protein”. You might find that of help… I did not see mention of it in the original post.
Best of luck with your friend…

11

I really have no idea what to do to help clear the wool from your friend’s eyes. Soy is the biggest scam played on vegetarians ever, but I can’t get them to stop. I shifted from “soy is bad for you” to a more sublte method, “Gee, Tofu always gives me indigestion.”

I’m not going to blame “The Media.” When a reporter writes a story, usually to fill space in a newspaper, about some recently reported benefits of soy, they are either reporting facts from a study, or reporting the extrapolations of an expert, who may be wrong. If soy has been shown to reduce the symptoms of PMS, then it has been shown to reduce the symptoms of PMS. Likewise, soy has been shown to cause LBM loss in rats, pigs, and men. Reporting either fact is simply reporting the truth.

It happens that, in a culture that so desperately begs for con men–come on, I work as a sales clerk, I know how the rap–a large number of people sell miracle pills that later turn out to be toxic. I’m going to pontificate, but I think that the Power of Positive Thinking pretty much rules over a lot of thought here in the States–and this is tied to salesmanship. Why report the negative, when only the positive has selling points?

I’ve also found that people generally only take from the media what they want, and invent stories as they need them. I’ll pour some gas on the fire: My dad works in an office, and the guy in the cubicle is convienced that Bush II’s service records are so confused because he was “flying secret missions in Vietnam.” I can’t prove that Bush II wasn’t in Nam, much like I can’t prove that there’s never been a dead baby in my refrigerator, because you can’t prove–you can induce (i.e., use science) but not prove–a negative. Anyway, people’s belief systems are incredibly self-conserving; people will ignore information that demands reconsideration and invent fictions to serve as facts to augment what they already believe. This will occur in everything from diet to politics.

We all know what the healthy choices are. Eat your fruits and vegetables. Get your fish oil. Unfortunately, these aren’t miracle, instant cures. The effects are slow to manifest. Walk into my store, and you’ll be overwhelmed by the thousands of items on the shelves. You know to eat your vegetables, avoid saturated fat and too much starch… but then you see these products, and wonder, Is there a miracle pill in here? The only words you hear, though, are the confidence men’s sales pitch, or my half-assed mumbling about how the product “might work, maybe.”

I’m suprised that, despite the seemingly universal good press about soy, most guys who come into my store say that they avoid soy products.

12

I don’t have anything to add other than an anecdote. A friend of my fiancee’s is an older teacher who’s been a vegetarian for years. She was getting most of her protein through soy foods, and supplementing with soy protein shakes. She was always kind of sickly, but she was feeling really bad so she went to her doctor for an exam. The doc basically told her that all the soy had screwed up her endocrine system, and told her to quit eating it completely. Now she’s just hoping her body goes back to normal after cutting it off.