Google propionate vs enanthate
[quote]Kaynon311 wrote:
Google “dr marianco shbg”. The first link that comes up has a lot of useful info.
I’m interested in your propionate ester trial if you do get it.
[/quote]
I am also interested in your results.
If yours are similar to mine, and others have the same result, it could help
a large cohort of men with low SHBG, and so so experiences with cyp/enth based
TRT.
If and when you get it, be sure to keep your doses small and frequent,
as you need less total T to reach the top of the range in Free T.
I found this chart today that correlates Total T with Free and SHBG.
Helpful in demonstrating the relationships between the three.
PKNY, thank you for info. I will keep you guys posted. PKNY, you said that prop injections should be only IM, never SQ. Is there a reason for that? From what I understand they sting any way you do them. If you do SQ, you do not poke a hole (well, a lot of holes) in muscles. If results are the same, I would choose SQ.
Could you explain?
Its my theory that SubQ isn’t great for guys with low SHBG. It slows the absorption of the T (cyp/enth/prop). With fast clearance due to low SHBG you need to get the T in quick and have it express it’s effect, SubQ slowsthat process down. I have considered that it could keep the T active longer, but in my experience Prop, heck even cyp seemed to work better for me IM. Plus, I hate the nodules that SubQ injections leave.
I use 29g 1/2 1ml slin pins, the hole is very small, no pain. I prefer the 1ml vs the .5ml slin pin as the entire syringe is more rigid, and it makes it easier to hold and inject with one hand ( I shoot almost exclusively in my delts).
Here is the other thing, Prop doesn’t sting. I know I read and heard that many a time, and when I took my first injection of it I held my breath and waited but it was like cyp. Now, before I found the supplier that I use, I went through four other suppliers that made prop that hurt. In that I mean PIP not an injection that stings. If Prop, or Cyp etc has too much benzyl alcohol in it, it causes inflammation that can be down right nasty. Hard nodules appear after a day or two that can bruise and radiate heat, some that I shot
in my quad made it impossible to work legs for a few days.
Happily, for you…these are things you won’t have to worry about if you get RX Prop.
It is my understanding that compounding pharmacies make oil based prop, so it should not give the stinging effect. We will see, I did not even convince my HRT doctor that prop is the way to go. I believe he wants to explore other options before going there, including higher cyp dosage, androgel.
PKNY, you are using 1/2 inch pin to inject into deltoid. Isn’t it too short for an IM injection? I am not trying to prove you wrong, heck, if it works, it works, but Crisler uses 3/8 and 5/8 needles to inject sub-q. Your 1/2 pin is very similar to this. Is it because because delts carry less fat than belly, so the same length needle goes into the muscle?
Also, it appears that you can do IM injections in legs with same needles. Why you do only delts?
Another question, which brand of prop do you use?
I can get IM in my quads with the 1/2 too, but sometimes it misses a little and the oil gets between
the skin and muscle, and it leaves a nodule. I have some 25g 1" pins I was using when I was pinning
larger volumes, and they work great for IM in the quad or glute. However, the damage of a 25g v 29g
for just .25cc is just too great. 29g 1/2 in the delt is IM with no problem. Delts are naturally very
lean on most people.
It took me sometime to get the guts up to inject my delts (I was really needle phobic before trt), but with
the 29g 1/2 pin it is virtually painless.
The brand on my Prop is Pure Performance Pharmas.
Please keep all of your details here and do not start new thread disconnected from this background.
Kwn , did u start on propionate , how are u doing ?
I did.
The results are not encouraging so far. Before I started prop I did blood test (I was on cyp at that point). My TT was 750 and bioavailable T was 423. According to LabCorp who did the test, it is waaaay above the range (40-250). So due to my low SHBG even moderate level of TT puts me over the top on bioavailable T. E2 was 35, also elevated, but not too bad. This may be the reason I do not see the results - too much free T.
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Question to KSMan - could that be the case that overload of free/bioavailable T be responsible for TRT not working?
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Another question to KSMan. According to Quest the range of free T is 110-575. According to Quest I am NOT over the top, but rather sitting nicely in the middle. What the fuck? How can two medical organizations disagree so hugely on basic numbers concerning same human male species? Somebody got to be on crack here…
Anyway, I started prop with the dose of 12.5 mg per day. It was 4 days ago. Nothing. PKNY and I are discussing the treatment as I go. He suggested cutting down the dose to 8-10 mg per day. Reason: this is what healthy males put out every day with natural production. Going over it, especially with low SHBG, would put free T (and E2 as well) high. I injected 10 mg for 2 days. Nothing. Then another low SHBG man on prop suggested going higher dose. He injects 17 mg per day, which gives him TRT benefits. So I injected 15 mg yesterday, and upped the dose to 20 mg today. So far I have no noticeable changes. In the last couple of days I was feeling a bit more energy though than usual. The difference is small though, and can be a placebo or just random flick.
I am not losing hope yet, because:
- Bodubuilders pin 100 mg per day and some of them feel prop in 3-7 days.
- I have no control of E2 at that point. I did blood work yesterday, to see where my TT and E2 since starting on prop. Waiting on the results.
If I have positive changes I will post them in this thread.
Keep at it for more than a week and keep us updated 
I will go see Dr. Mariano soon, and I would like to get as much tests done coming to him as I can, so that he can start with treatment right away, possibly.
Here is what I have done recently:
test
bioavaiable test
estradiol
prolactin
CBC
lipid panel
fasting glucose
vitamin D
DHT
DHEA
Here is what I did 5 months ago:
cortisol 4-point
free T3
free T4
TSH
insulin
PSA
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are there any tests which are missing? For example, I never did reverse T3. Should I do it? Is there anything else missing?
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should I repeat tests which are 5 months old?
Well, you are not normal and you can’t take any experiences of others and expect them to apply to you. Your thread is hard to follow. I am not sure what you are taking and for how long. But you need to be on something fixed and steady on that before lab work or you will not know what it applies to.
Lower E2 lowers SHBG, someone said the opposite. FT/Bio-T also pushed SHBG down.
FT range from quest cannot be compared to range or results from other labs.
DHEA-S, not DHEA
Did you ever report body temperatures and iodine as per thyroid basics sticky? Your labs are consistent with elevated rT3, but temperatures would have been good data. And elevated rT3 results from stress/starvation/illness/infection/personal stress/work stress/caffeine abuse/stimulants/inflammation.
For current testing re your current protocol
TT
FT
TSH, fT3, fT4,rT3
E2
CBC with fasting cholesterol, AST/ALT
Did you ever report your CBC and 4 point cortisol here?
KSman, how long does one have to stay on a protocol for it to stabilize?
Also, how can I order rT3 testing? I cannot find it on the menu at privateMDlabs. I can totally see rT3 as elevated, because last year I am under ENORMOUS amounts of stress.
rT3: Phone them up and ask.
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== I raised a lot of issues, can you respond to them all? ==
You can get Wilson’s book on adrenal fatigue at amazon. I speak about adrenal fatigue and ones stress reactions in the advice for new guys sticky.
TT levels will normalize in two weeks on a given protocol. But SHBG, FT, E2 and liver enzymes all play together and that can take longer. Your case seems very difficult, no simple answers. You are a population of one and you will need to find out what works for you and that will take some discipline and perhaps more clarity in this thread.
Need to see all of your labs and more responses to issues in the advice for new guys sticky.
Hmm. Stumbled on another great thread. I have also have low SHBG. 10.5 last time I tested. I’ve also had libido and energy issues despite good levels on paper. Free T was at 27.3 (8.7-25.1) with TT at only 591 (348-1197). This was at 40mg Cyp EOD. Just dropped it to 30mg EOD. No improvements so far. Prop sounds interesting. I’m really sick of dealing with doctors, so may have figure out how to get it on my own. PKNY, do you have link to the other thread where you talk about how to go about this?
Kwn, did the adrenal supplement do anything? I also have low cortisol. I’ve tried a ton of stuff. Some worked for awhile, but I always seem to end up in the same spot.
I retested cortisol AM - came in at 20.4, high. Not surprising given I am under astronomical stress right now. I dropped cortisol supplement.
dhickey, I don’t want to derail KWN’s thread, but you want to google THE SOURCE CHECK
cool. I have a membership there, but haven’t been on there in awhile.
[quote]Kwn wrote:
I retested cortisol AM - came in at 20.4, high. Not surprising given I am under astronomical stress right now. I dropped cortisol supplement.[/quote]
being a little high in the morning isn’t that big of a deal. A 4x saliva test would tell you if it’s dropping like it should throughout the day. The adaptogens in that formula should support healthy cortisol levels, not just low. If you’re still high throughout the day, there are things to can take to mellow things out a bit. There are really good article on this site…
You can try canaryclub for the saliva test