I never did try to get it legitimately.
Its hard enough to get my doc to order proper bloodwork.
Hopefully your Doc is better than mine and willing to listen
and write that script for you.
$400 puzzles me though, as does stability and sterility testing ??
How the hell does a compound pharmacy NOT know the proper method
to mix up T-prop in a sterile and stable manner ?
Here is my understanding:
for FDA to approve drug, there has to be (1) specific concentration, (2) specific volume, and (3) specific time frame. For example, if you certify 100 mg/ml, 10 mls, over 6 months, it takes 6 months of testing to certify this drug at this strength and volume for this timing. If you change concentration to 200 mg/ml, and volume to 5 ml its testing all over again.
One pharmacy I called has testing done already, they have vials prepared ready to ship. Another said, prop-cyp mixture, 20-80%, 1 month stability test done, 5 ml vial of 200 mg/ml, $65. These are pre-tested compounds. Another pharmacy told me they dont have anything tested, so they go by standard stability of 3 days (!!). Another one told me they will do any volume at any concentration but testing it will run me $300-$400. Another pharmacy quoted testing at $150.
You are expecting results too soon. Changes in erections and orgasms can take up to six months. See below:
(also check out graphics at Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved - PubMed )
Eur J Endocrinol. 2011 Nov;165(5):675-85. doi: 10.1530/EJE-11-0221. Epub 2011 Jul 13.
Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved.
Saad F, Aversa A, Isidori AM, Zafalon L, Zitzmann M, Gooren L.
Source
Scientific Affairs Men’s Healthcare, BU General Medicine/Men’s Healthcare, Bayer Pharma AG, D-13342 Berlin, Germany. farid.saad@bayer.com
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
Testosterone has a spectrum of effects on the male organism. This review attempts to determine, from published studies, the time-course of the effects induced by testosterone replacement therapy from their first manifestation until maximum effects are attained.
DESIGN:
Literature data on testosterone replacement.
RESULTS:
Effects on sexual interest appear after 3 weeks plateauing at 6 weeks, with no further increments expected beyond. Changes in erections/ejaculations may require up to 6 months. Effects on quality of life manifest within 3-4 weeks, but maximum benefits take longer. Effects on depressive mood become detectable after 3-6 weeks with a maximum after 18-30 weeks. Effects on erythropoiesis are evident at 3 months, peaking at 9-12 months. Prostate-specific antigen and volume rise, marginally, plateauing at 12 months; further increase should be related to aging rather than therapy. Effects on lipids appear after 4 weeks, maximal after 6-12 months.
Insulin sensitivity may improve within few days, but effects on glycemic control become evident only after 3-12 months. Changes in fat mass, lean body mass, and muscle strength occur within 12-16 weeks, stabilize at 6-12 months, but can marginally continue over years. Effects on inflammation occur within 3-12 weeks. Effects on bone are detectable already after 6 months while continuing at least for 3 years.
CONCLUSION:
The time-course of the spectrum of effects of testosterone shows considerable variation, probably related to pharmacodynamics of the testosterone preparation. Genomic and non-genomic effects, androgen receptor polymorphism and intracellular steroid metabolism further contribute to such diversity.
Great work !
From what I understand about Prop is that 100mg/ml is the highest concentration you want.
The propionate ester requires more Benzyl Alcohol to dissolve and get it to stay “in solution.” The more
BA in an oil based injectable the more pain after injection you will experience.
That said, I wouldn’t mess around with the Prop/Cyp blend, just try for plain Prop 100mg/ml.
Let me know what you find.
seekonk, this crappy paper is known all over internet. Everybody cites it. It also says that your libido should pick up on week 3 and peak at week 6. I am finishing week 5 with no benefits at all. This paper represents mainstream medicine view, ergo it is crap.
PKNY, what is your peak and trough TT values on prop?
I agree on the paper citation. If it works, you should feel a significant change to mood,
libido and energy within days, especially in T starved individuals. Using Cyp and Enth
for over a year with varied dosing schedules (from daily to 1 EOW, IM and SUBQ),
and varied amounts never gave me the effect that prop did in two days.
I posted trough values above, I live in NY which is one of the states that prohibits
patients ordering their own bloods via LEF and others. Although, I did just find a
service that allows it so I will be getting new bloods next week. I’ll post em when they arrive.
PKNY,
base on your prop labs, your TT does not appear to be all that high. And yet you have very high libido. I my opinion it supports the viewpoint that with low SHBG you do not need that much of testosterone to be fully functional. Which also can indicate that when men with low SHBG are trying to pump TT up tp 1000+ levels it leave a lot of free T and somehow does more harm than good.
You are right, they disabled PMs. I tried to send you PM yesterday, did not work.
Yet another question.
My prolactin was 13 last time I checked it. It is not out of range but it is high-ish. Could this be the reason behind my libido/orgasm culprit? If yes, how do I control it?
Cabergoline is not the way to go. I had pituitary MRI - came back clean.
Any suggestions?
Well, if evidence-based medicine is such total crap, why do you then cite their result that libido should pick up within 6 weeks to argue that TRT is not working right for you? Make up your mind.
Even chemical bodybuilders don’t expect testosterone to completely kick in within the first month yet. At one month, you have just barely reached stable blood levels. Estrogens and other downstream hormones, as well as hormone dependent neurotransmitters, can take quite a bit longer to stabilize. That’s just pharmacokinetics, based on some more of that new-fangled crap called mathematics, but just throwing it out there for you.
The change some people report within days are thought to be due to an initial bump in dopamine. The brain adjusts to that quickly so the effect tends to be temporary in many people, with real steady results taking longer to appear.
Seekonk, I go by anecdotal evidence. Subjective reports posted across forums on Internet indicate that most people start feeling the effect within 2.5-3 weeks. Sure it takes hormones and neurotransmitters time to fully stabilize. But I believe if do not feel the good feeling within 5 weeks chances are its not working. Pkny was on protocols over a year with no results.
Got the lab results back. I have to say, I am puzzled beyond limits.
Labs are done two days ago, right before my E3D cypionate injection.
TT = 555 (previous reading 10 days ago 885)
E2 = 10.9 (previous reading 10 days ago 40.9)
So, it appears that without changing the dose of cypionate my peak reached 912, then declined to 885, and now to 555. So apparently my body does not like to have a lot of testosterone around and is trying to get rid of it. Otherwise I cannot explain that moving drastic change in TT levels. Estrogen of 10.9 is explained by (1) low TT, and (2) 0.25 mg arimidex E3D.
I am not sure how to interpret this. The only thing i can come up with - low SHBG, and body processes “excessive” testosterone to move it outside.
Any other ideas?
I also contacted my TRT doctor, he is not opposed to try propionate. I think I will push for this idea. But he wants to do couple of other things:
(1) he advised to up the cyp dose. IN his opinion upping the dose will increase DHT
(2) try Androgel. It may help with DHT as well
(3) if 1 and 2 fail, propionate
I am wondering what he will say to falling down level of TT without adjustments to protocol…
Pkny, how long are you on prop? Are prop benefits stable for you or do you feel they diminish?
Did you have to dial in your protocol with arimidex?
On Prolactin:
13 is a bit on the high side, but if you are cleared of a tumor its not all that bad.
I have heard b6 works naturally to lower it. I’ve also tried Caber after I read a thread
about it on T-Nation claiming it increases dopamine, thus giving its user the ability to
be multi orgasmic. I did this in an effort to awaken my libido while I was using CYP .
(Seekonk’s et al. theory higher dopamine, higher libido).
It may have worked, but I took too much, too quickly and it was an uncomfortable feeling.
Had I eased into it, it may have worked, but it was another substance to use, and I wanted the
least amount of substances to get the effect I was after. Plus my prolactin sits around 4-5.
~base on your prop labs, your TT does not appear to be all that high. And yet you have very high libido. I my opinion it supports the viewpoint that with low SHBG you do not need that much of testosterone to be fully functional. Which also can indicate that when men with low SHBG are trying to pump TT up tp 1000+ levels it leave a lot of free T and somehow does more harm than good.
This is the theory I have been following as well. My Total T isn’t very high, yet I
have near top line Free T as a result of low SHBG. It’s hard to bring myself to the “less is more”
in this case, but I cannot argue with the way I feel at these levels (Great) !
Because men with low SHBG excrete test so fast, the test you use needs to be fast acting.
Cyp is just to slow to release in my case, it’s removed before it exerts its full effect. Prop is released
much faster and is used in smaller doses, more often. This offers greater uptake, with less test
left over for conversion to E2 and avoids super high free T.
The lower amount needed case is supported further in that Androgel, which is Test Base no ester TNE
did give me SOME libido. TNE is fast acting and is cleared very fast by the body, that is why it’s applied daily.
The problem with Androgel for me was that it became less and less effective, and I believe
that absorption became an issue.
I also believe, and have experienced issues controlling E2 with Adex. I believe this has to do
with low SHBG. I have tried several times to use ADEX as KSman recommends at 1/4 the dose
of 1mg per week split up (.25 MG/4). Even at that small amount, it still makes me whacky and crashes my E2.
I switched to Aromasin a long time ago, it has less side effects. It does cost more than adex,
and you need to use more dosewise but its harder to crash E2 on it.
Your Dr. sounds great, It’s nice to see him work with you instead of sticking to a protocol that
isn’t working. That said, more CYP won’t work, your Free T will be off the charts and
you won’t feel better (IMO). Androgel may give you a boost, but at what cost ? As a side note
on Androgel, I was always worried it could be transferred to my wife or daughters. Don’t know
if you have children, but they cannot come into contact with skin that has Androgel on it.
If I were you I’d work with your doc, try his protocol so that he is satisfied that he did everything
by the book before he prescribes something a little off the beaten path such as Prop.
~how long are you on prop? Are prop benefits stable for you or do you feel they diminish?
Did you have to dial in your protocol with arimidex?
Been using it a little over a year, as long as I keep the dose low (25mg EOD) I feel wonderful,
great mood, patience, optimism and libido all well above the way I used to feel.
As I wrote above, I use Aromasin 12.5 with each injection. Going to get some new labs next week on the
day after my injection to see where I am in terms of #'s. It’s a little moot though, I go by the way I feel,
not by #'s and ranges, but I’ll post them when I get them.
Good Luck !
KWN,
After we discussed low SHBG, I started reading much more extensively about it.
Interesting.
Kaynon, I found a lot of discussion threads on various sites concerning low SHBG problem.
Fellow from Italy describes his low SHBG problem. Doctor placed him on Testovis (Italian prop), tons of libido.
I am trying to convince my HRT doctor to RX prop. If it is home run, then it is home run.
Google “dr marianco shbg”. The first link that comes up has a lot of useful info.
I’m interested in your propionate ester trial if you do get it.
I have my reservations regarding Marianco. I understand that his medical field is psychology. Pretty far from hormones. Note that most practicing HRT doctors are not hormonal specialists. Crisler is DO, my HRT doctor is osteopathic specialists.
You would think that the field will be packed with endos. Not happening. Why? I believe endos are living sweet lives treating diabetics. Sure, they occasionally stick a needle of cypionate into a hypogonadal patient. But my experience with endos was nothing but a shame.
Another doctor is Shippen. He is a family doctor, yet very successful with HRT, highly regarded.
I am still waiting on my HRT doctor to get back with me on propionate.
[quote]Kwn wrote:
Got the lab results back. I have to say, I am puzzled beyond limits.
TT = 555 (previous reading 10 days ago 885)
I am wondering what he will say to falling down level of TT without adjustments to protocol…[/quote]
My doc told me that T levels will be highest in the AM and gradually decrease throughout the day. I started getting my blood draws in the AM to be sure I removed the time of day as a possible variable.
I don’t know if time of day of blood draw would be a viable explanation for your scenario. Just throwing it in, as reading the above reminded me of this info from my doc.
Time of day matters when you are natural. If you are on TRT, you are not producing any T yourself, so bio rhythm does not exist
[quote]Kwn wrote:
Kaynon, I found a lot of discussion threads on various sites concerning low SHBG problem.
Fellow from Italy describes his low SHBG problem. Doctor placed him on Testovis (Italian prop), tons of libido.
I am trying to convince my HRT doctor to RX prop. If it is home run, then it is home run.[/quote]
Was there a link here that got removed?
Can you give me a phrase to google so that I can find it?