Yes. Ive gone up to 750 test a week before. I do bodybuilding. Had no negative side effects on 750mg test and NPP is generally milder due to only 20% aromatization to estrogen (compared to testosterone) - The only problem can be deca-dick, often cause of prolactin raise … but hell, why do I care, I have a shitty dick right now so whatever.
Dbol can be problematic for some, and feel fucking fantastic for others. I train with guys who are 50 years old and used 50-100mg of dbol for a very long time (yes they are insane) and do fine.
I know I tolerate test well. NPP is a short ester so i can discontinue it quickly if problems arise, dbol has an extremely short half-life so I will be fine.
Weird. Its usually associated as a ‘feel good’ oral. It borderline makes me euphoric.
Its a short ester but the problems associate with it can still last quite a long time. Proceed with caution. Also, NPP is way more powerful than Deca mg/mg. Keep that in mind.
Elite atheletes have used PEDs… if they were being tested they would be in a suppressed state.
Possible?
I know how I feel with TT of 450. It isn’t pretty. I know how most men feel. This demonstrates even further that lab ranges are meaningless. I understand exactly what you are saying, trust me. I just can’t use these numbers as any kind of guideline for my own health or where I will feel my best. I’ve already demonstrated where I feel my best through years of tweaking. No study will convince me to alter it.
The athletes in a suppressed state would likely be far lower than 450ng/dl, that being said if you look at the graph it does seem a fairly significant portion are at 0-150ng/dl… that could easily be suppression… or hypogonadism induced from extensive training
I believe PED’s though given how rampant their use is when it comes to elite/top level sports
It actually isn’, I don’t think the half l life is nearly as short as it’s made out to be in bodybuilding circles, however I used it once two weeks prior to bloods and got off scot free
molar mass of nandrolone is 274.04g/mol
molar mass of nandrolone decanoate is 428.6
274.04/428.6=0.639… rounded 64mg/100mg is pure base nandrolone
molar mass of nandrolone phenylpropioonate is 406.6g/mol (274.4/406.6) = .674… meaning that mg/100mg there’s less nandrolone in NPP compared to test cyp/enanthate (69/70 mg/100mg)
per 100mg of the stuff used you’re looking at about a 3mg difference.
@unreal24278 Did you look at the chart above from the same concentration of both compounds?
From the study…
"Plasma nandrolone concentrations were influenced (P < .001) by different esters and injection sites, with higher and earlier peaks with the phenylpropionate ester, compared with the decanoate ester. "
Yes, and the difference in hormonal concentrations (X mg/100mg) would back this. But people like to compare the two like test prop vs test C… I don’t think the difference is nearly of that calibre
Blockquote[quote=“johann77, post:216, topic:263818”]
Mean TT was 15.6 nmol/l (450 ng/dl), mean freeT was 9.8 ng/dl.
25% of elite athletes had TT levels of less than 360 ng/dl and 25% had higher TT levels than 570 ng/dl.
[/quote]
So much this. To all those who use the ‘I don’t want to be a Walmart guy cohort’… It’s such a fear based sales pitch. It encourages way too many men to reach for excessive levels of androgens. I recently saw an interview with Rich Froning, 4 time crossfit champion, and he was talking about his blood parameters. And his TT was in the 500’s while he was dominating at an elite level of fitness. So much goes into athletic performance other than T. Does jamming free T over 40 make a lot of men feel good? Yes. But it is still ludicrous to consider it a standard for treatment. And selling TRT on the falsehood that the elite performers in the population are all upper range and that the range itself is based on an obese Walmart population is malpractice.
Thats why it’s touted as hormonal optimisation… or “HRT” when referring to synthetic androgens being in the mix… not “trt”… it’s not extreme enough to say “this is a massive cycle” but its not exactly traditional “replacement” either
I agree with you 100%. I actually ‘feel better’ when I am in range versus when I up my test twice per year. TT 800-900ng/dl and FT 17-18pg/ml. This has me at my lowest anxiety point and best sexual health. But… we are all different so I what works for me doesn’t necessarily work for others.
Its a business. A HRT clinic does nothing but hormones. They are incented to find the maximum tolerable T level. Remember we are so early in this game. I don’t care if you know a guy who used to powerlift and he’s been on 250 a week for 40 years and is fine. We only have one off anecdotes for that cohort. HRT has only really exploded in the last 5-10 years. And this push to maximize free T is an even more recent evolution. We won’t know the outcome for 20+ years. Even tho I argue against, I definitely fall more into the maximize camp. But that’s me and my personal choice. And reflective of my journey. But I wouldn’t advise someone else to pursue it.
Yes I train a lot. I’ve become very sensitive to various health parameters. I don’t drink, or smoke weed, or use any recreational drugs ever. My overall physical performance sweet spot is in the 20-25 free T. That is balancing aerobic, muscle strength, muscle endurance. When I get too high… I feel heavy. Even at the same body weight. I can’t move as deftly. I feel my body strain on longer metabolic workouts. All for a modest gain in strength.
I’d argue we know quite a bit regarding the long term impact of hormones given they’ve been around for almost 100 years now
It’s fairly obvious prolonged androgen concentrations say above 5000ng/dl induces cardiac hypertrophy, at rates that differ between individual to individual, androgens dose dependently induce a state of hyper coagulation etc
I’m with you though, it’s up to the individual (after looking at/ reading the literature) to decide exactly where he is comfortable putting himself at
What am I selling, exactly? The fact that I want to find levels where I feel my best without using the average people around me as a reference point demonstrates the fact that I’m selling something? What is the price of this thing I’m selling? Where do people buy it? When can I expect the cheques to arrive?
You speak openly how you own a facebook group and a youtube channel. Which are possible revenue streams for you and referral sources for HRT drs that partner with you. I applaud your efforts. They are a net positive for giving people a forum to come and discuss their issues. And I don’t claim to specifically know anything about your business dealings. But on the surface there is a sheen of sales pitch.
I recorded a video on my birthday, a few days ago, to clear up some of this stuff which will be posted in the next 48 hours to clarify some of this stuff.
Let me put something into perspective:
I make over $300k a year with my business that has nothing to do with TRT.
When we subtract our costs from the roughly $400 a month from YouTube revenue, we’re left with about $100 each. If you think I’m doing all this due to ‘YouTube revenue’ you are gravely mistaken. I let Steven keep the money and he is even more wealthy than I am.
There isn’t a single doctor that has paid me a referral fee and I challenge you to find anyone that can demonstrate this to be false.
I do this, FOR FREE. It’s my way of giving back and helping people. Is this so hard to believe that I just genuinely want to help people? Do you know how many emails I get in a day just from T-Nation guys? Make a post and ask if I ever charged a dollar for any of this.
I repeat: There is NO product. I have NOTHING to sell you.
Fair enough. My original post wasn’t directed at you but the HRT business in general. I keyed in on the Walmart comment because it’s a falsehood that keeps popping up.
I brought up the Walmart thing. I’m not bringing it up as ‘evidence’. Trust me when I say I completely understand what @johann77 is saying.
I’m just sharing my thoughts… what goes through my mind when I walk through a ‘Walmart’ (I just picked that out for imagery lol). I don’t want to be like them. I want to be better. I don’t want to be a bodybuilder. I want to be optimal. What they are doing has no bearing on me. This is my ‘opinion’. Nothing more.
