[quote]inthego wrote:
Undone wrote:
What you are talking about are bodybuilders who are coming of a cycle of anabolic steroids. This situation appears to be substantially different. This is a 43 yo male whom (I’m guessing) has not been using anabolic steroids but looks to be experiencing andropause, based on his age, his numbers and his symptoms.
Oh yea by the way what do you think TRT is any way:
“anabolic steroids”
Comparing apples to apple sauce…
Solid[/quote]
If you re-read my post, you will note that I said “a cycle of anabolic steroids”. TRT does not “cycle” anything or attempt to raise test level over the normal range. It simply tries to restore and maintain, on an ongoing and consistent basis, one’s test level in the normal to “high-normal” range for the purpose of overall health and well-being.
Substantially different than cycling anabolic steroids. I am sure you knew that and were just trying to be clever. Or perhaps not.
Any out side hormone taken will cause the body to stop it’s own production. Period
Sorry you had a bad bout with sups. Perhaps you took them incorrectly, don’t know and don’t fucking care!
I buy my stuff in bulk and in raw form not in prepackaged shinny cans of dig my cool stuff corporate think bottles.
So you were taken in by the snake oil boogie man, WTF!
You want your substantial, quantifiable, verifiable evidence? Read. Talk to Doctors, Chemists, biologist or maybe better yet read the writings on THIS web site your a part of, and google the findings for yourself…
[quote]Edgy wrote:
Happydog, I read this paper and will take it to my Doc, I think he will be receptive, but what protocols are you referring to?[/quote]
I’m specifically referring to weekly injections and the use of HCG and the inclusion of a SERM or aromatase inhibitor if warranted.
[quote]happydog48 wrote:
Edgy wrote:
Happydog, I read this paper and will take it to my Doc, I think he will be receptive, but what protocols are you referring to?
I’m specifically referring to weekly injections and the use of HCG and the inclusion of a SERM or aromatase inhibitor if warranted.
[/quote]
Long term use of SERMs is not the way to go. Use an AI such as arimidex to keep E controlled instead of using a SERM band-aid.
I tried it for 5 weeks. I had modest success with a modest dosage of Clomid. 50 mg ED and .5ml arimidex 2Xweek. Test increased from 251 to 316, Estradiol decreased from 24 to 20. I had none of the sides sometimes reported with clomid. I think next time I may try 100 mg and see if I can improve my results.
I have read little about the long term sides of clomid in men, I suspect that there has been very little such experience. However what I do see is that some trials have been conducted for a few months- apparently with few sides. Bill Roberts reports that Clomid is safe, that studies have been conducted up to a year. I have not seen those studies.
I have a feeling that the response to a SERM will be limited to the increase in T that one would achieve with a good TRT dose of HCG. In my case, 250iu HCG SQ EOD increased my TT from 886 t0 1025. That was an increase of 139. Not a huge amount.
In a non TRT instance, I expect that the increased LH from TRT would not increase TT to a level exceeding that from HCG use. Which implies that the testes are probably a limiting factor with either LH or HCG stimulation.
If one can get HCG prescribed, HCG from APP via Sam’s Club with a business membership [required for this price] at $16.25 for 10,000iu [lasts 80 days] would probably be the least cost of any method to boost T.
Either HCG or an SERM should increase E levels by a similar amount. I don’t think that elevated E levels should ever be left unchecked with or without a SERM. Liquid arimidex/anastrozole is very cost effective and would increase the effects of the T achieved by either method.
HCG needs to be kept refrigerated after adding the BA water. It needs to be injected. This is not much a problem really, but does present complications when traveling. Never take a vial traveling when the total contents of the vial are at risk of thermal degradation.
Research Chem SERMs will probably be cheaper than prescribed or cheaper than co-pays. But liquid SERMs [and AIs] can present some travel issues if challenged by TAS or customs.
Taking a SERM + HCG would be like taking too much HCG that might result in the LH receptors down-regulating… a worse case result.
The studies I have seen typically report something on the order of Test increases of 150% over baseline in a month or 6 weeks. That is not going to get many TRT candidates up into the 800-1000 range or they would not be TRT candidates. But there is a reason that some may consider a serm over TRT; there is no damage to ones HPTA caused by SERM therapy that I know of. It is used after all to recover one’s HPTA function. So for those who do not want to shut down and are willing to trade some Test levels it may be a good choice. The other way one might think about using a serm is to alternate it with B Robert’s 2 week cycles. i.e. I did a 5 week cycle of clomid/arimidex and launched into a 2 week test prop cycle 50 mg ED. My last inject was day 11 so as to be halfway cleared by the end of the cycle. Continued with the arimidex but have not decided when to resume clomid. Considering the halflife of prop I should think one would wait for 6 days or so, no more. The point here is that Clomid does not shut one down, and if Roberts is right then recovery from a 2 week cycle is very rapid. Thus one could alternate between the SERM and the test and improve one’s test profile without shutting down.
At least that is my theory:) I have embarked upon this program and all I can say is so far so good. If anyone has any intelligent comments about this I would like to hear them. Guess I kinda hijacked this thread.
[quote]MichaelOH wrote:
The studies I have seen typically report something on the order of Test increases of 150% over baseline in a month or 6 weeks. That is not going to get many TRT candidates up into the 800-1000 range or they would not be TRT candidates. But there is a reason that some may consider a serm over TRT; there is no damage to ones HPTA caused by SERM therapy that I know of. It is used after all to recover one’s HPTA function. So for those who do not want to shut down and are willing to trade some Test levels it may be a good choice. The other way one might think about using a serm is to alternate it with B Robert’s 2 week cycles. i.e. I did a 5 week cycle of clomid/arimidex and launched into a 2 week test prop cycle 50 mg ED. My last inject was day 11 so as to be halfway cleared by the end of the cycle. Continued with the arimidex but have not decided when to resume clomid. Considering the halflife of prop I should think one would wait for 6 days or so, no more. The point here is that Clomid does not shut one down, and if Roberts is right then recovery from a 2 week cycle is very rapid. Thus one could alternate between the SERM and the test and improve one’s test profile without shutting down.
At least that is my theory:) I have embarked upon this program and all I can say is so far so good. If anyone has any intelligent comments about this I would like to hear them. Guess I kinda hijacked this thread. [/quote]
Those research results are done on young normal men. If you are talking about starting with low T to begin with, the reason that the T is low might be from the testes not working well. In that case, more LH or HCG might not create a useful end point.
If your T sucks, 1.5 X T that sucks still sucks.
TRT does not damage the HPTA for a guy who has low T. In that case the HPTA is already broken.
An update on my TRT.
I got my first injection of 200 mg of Test Cyp on Friday August 3rd. Doc told me to come back in 3 weeks, I talked him into 2 weeks and he agreed. Saturday I felt the same, and Sunday too, but something happened Sunday night. I woke up Monday Morning feeling fantastic.
By Monday night, I was looking for somone to tackle. My training went great and my bench went from 225 for 2 to 225 for 5. But that isn’t all, I didn’t feel trashed when I left the gym and had energy to spare. The next day I was a little sore, but ready to hit it again that night.
I was hungrier and hornier than I had been in years. This intensity didn’t last, though. By Thursday I was getting tired again and by Saturday I still had more energy than I used to when I left the gym before, but it was not near as great as it had been on that Monday. By the folowing Monday, I was jonsein’ for some more Test.
I dealt with it until my next appointment on the 17th. Training was not the greatest, but I was feeling better than before I started the TRT. At the Appt, the Doc hit me again with 200mg. I squatted on Sunday, again with a raise from 185x10x3 to 225x8x4 reps, and felt strong enough to do more!
I trained Back on Monday and felt stronger still. With the help of the posts on this thread, I was able to talk the Doc into hitting me w/ 100mg once a week instead of 200 every 2. We’re going to stick with that until the next blood test and see what else I need.
For those who are getting older, and not feeling like they used to, there is no reason to suffer. My GP said that it is the natural aging process that was taking away my energy and libido, I chose to find a Doc who would help, and fight this aging thing all the way.
Thanks to all who’ve posted on this thread, it has transformed my life.
I’ll keep ya’ll up to date as to my progress.