I hover around 10 pounds of what I’ve always weighed and many years ago I could do 5 or 6 pull-ups so I don’t think it’s totally a weight problem. I think one mistake I made is not focusing on chins/pull-ups from the get go. Instead I would do pull downs and rows for back and I don’t think they translated to any real help with pull-ups ? I’ve always been one to focus on exercises where I felt the muscle being worked the most and I guess I didn’t get a good feel with pull-ups? It’s quite possible with my crappy lat genetics even had I done pull-ups all along and got to the point I could do 10 or more my lats still might suck!! Ha ha ! Who knows?
Scott
OK… you aren’t trying to argue anything, but you are trying to understand if the lack of size in the brachii muscles plays a role in poor pullup performance?
I’d say this: the pullup is not a lat isolation exercise or a bicep isolation exercise. It is a compound movement involving significant rotations around two joints - the shoulder and the elbow. Lots of muscles come into play. The relative contributions of different muscle groups will depend on a lot of things: grip used, grip width, how high you try to pull, and your own personal anatomy such as shoulder width, humorous vs forearm length, as well as where your tendons attach to the different structures involved.
How many pullups you can do will also depend a lot on body weight. A 140 lb rock climber with spindly legs doing a one arm pullup to his chin while hanging from his fingertips is impressive, but in a different way than a 250 lb bodybuilder with massive legs doing wide grip pullups while barely clearing the bar with his nose.
So if your objective is to do more pullups: 1) lose some weight, because you can always get more reps with less weight, 2) use the shortest range of motion possible, consistent with that being a legit (by your standards) pullup, 3) figure out what kind of pullup favors your anatomy and train those, 4) figure out what your sticking points are for that style of pullup, and then train those sticking points, 5) while you are doing that, figure out which muscle groups seem to be limiting your progress (by feel), and do accessory exercises for those muscle groups, 6) if you get to the point of being able to do a few, try progressively loading the movement (as opposed to using a lot of volume, which might bother your joints due to your age).
I think the program will have to be individualized to your personal circumstances, and that some trial and error will be involved. And maybe you’ve just gone as far as you can due to age and medical circumstances. I doubt there are any hidden secrets or silver bullets to be discovered.
If you have trouble with dips and pullups, you could try some work to strengthen the muscles involved in Internal Shoulder Rotation. Something for the Subscapularis.
I think your advice to isolate what body parts are holding me back is a good start. I am trying hanging from the bar and just pulling up with my traps and I’m amazed how weak those muscles are.it’s like are there any muscles there at all, ha ha! I know if I lost weight I could more easily do them but being able to do chins just isn’t that important. I’ll either get to doing a few as I am or I won’t do any. I’ll just have to get stronger ! Unlike most exercises I can easily tell if I’m getting stronger as the reps or weight goes up but with chins it’s hard to see progress even if there is a smidge of it.
Scott
I have no trouble with dips, I did several yesterday but what exercise would you recommend to work the subscapularis what ever that is, ha ha!
Thanks
Scott
Wow, you are really obsessed with chins lately, lol
Have you tried negative only chins
I’m doing negative chins as part of my workout. I do a negative chin and rest about 30 seconds about 6 to 10 times. I’m glad I’m not hanging off a cliff having to pull myself back up , ha ha!!
Scott
It’s a rotator cuff muscle that helps with the position of your shoulder blade. Al mentioned the shoulder and the elbow working together during chins, the little muscles you never heard of are the ones that help keep things lined up so the night muscles can work properly.
For an internal rotation move, something easy like this, moving horizontal, Rotating “in”
Or this, going vertical or rotating “down.”
Or a move that’s kind of a combination, like this.
Anyway, try 2-3 sets of 12+ reps of some Internal Rotation before you do real lifts for your lats. You’ll want to feel it along your ribs, under your arm. The subscap working may even feel like a lat cramp sensation. Ideally after that your lats will work better.
Interesting! My sports doctor had me doing stuff like this when I thought I injured my rotor cuff! I should try these again!
Thanks
Scott
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I’ve been looking at a lot of people on the internet doing chins or pull-ups and there’s tons of ripped/skinny but muscular trainers doing multiple pull-ups and going on how great they are but I’ve yet to find a big guy with a bodybuilding championship physique demonstrating pull-ups and pulling up to the chest. There’s quite a few giant guys doing them with their arms barely breaking parallel with the ground. There’s a series with really big guys including the likes of Boyer Coe, flex wheeler , Levrone etc etc doing every imaginable exercise for back but no pull-ups? Are these guys just to heavy to do non kipping strict pull-ups or what? If pull-ups are such a great back/ lat worker I would think that they would be a staple exercise to demonstrate, if they could do them?
Scott
Bodybuilding lore seems to be that wide grip pull ups are a good lat builder. And when I look at video of really big bodybuilders doing pull ups, they are typically doing them with a wide prone grip and a limited range of motion. Some don’t even get their forehead to the bar. But maybe that is all you need to get maximum lat engagement? The movement is a combination of pulling the elbow down and toward the center line of the body.
If you set your hands very far outside your shoulders and use a prone grip, then when you pull up, you need to keep your elbows flared to the side, and that likely restricts the range of motion, and makes it very difficult to pull to the chin, or the sternum.
Most of the videos I see of people pulling to the neck or sternum are using grips just about shoulder width or narrower. That makes it easier to pull the arms backward (for maximum elevation). But maybe that doesn’t work the lats as much as the mid back?
franco columbo used to do his pullups with a wide grip…and his back used open up like a cobra
I think Columbo was one of the X-Men! Ha hah! Very few people could do what he did!
Scott
I can get my eyes almost up to the bar with roughly shoulder width grip but move them out to wide grip like in that picture of Columbu
I can hardly move up an inch, ha ha !
Scott
I was able to do that in my 20s, no way now in my 50s, lol
They’re not. Unless you make a super conscious effort to keep your elbows in front of you, wide grip pull-ups are rear delts, rhomboids, and traps. The wide grip for wide lats thing is a total myth. The lats extend the shoulders, and most bodybuilders know that to hit the lats you need to be able to drive your elbows downwards. Close grip rows and close grip pulldowns are much more of a lat builder than their wide grip variations.
If you don’t want to take my word for it reach up into the air with both hands like you’re going to do a wide grip pull-up, and pull your arms down into a flexed position, imagining that you’re pulling yourself into the bar, and consciously flexing your back. Staying in this position, reach one of your arms around slowly and feel the lat on the opposite side. It will feel surprisingly mushy, as you realize your rhomboids and lower traps are activating more.
Then, perform an imaginary close grip pulldown, allowing your shoulders to come forward, your spine to be neutral, and think about driving your shoulders and your elbows downwards into your hips. Reach around and feel your lats while flexing in the bottom position this time, and you’ll feel your lat knot up.
In essence, though elbow path can be manipulated, you’ve got it backwards. Wide grip variations are more mid back, close grip variations are more lats, especially with a neutral spine,
This is good to hear as I’m sure I’ll never be able to do a wide grip pull-up and even in my younger days I don’t recall doing one. I’m pretty sure I’ll be able to do a close grip pull up or chin if I don’t break something first, ha ha.
Yesterday I did about 10 negative pull-ups and hung as long as I could about 5 times and then later in the workout did 2 sets of close grip pulley rows really trying to feel it in my lats. Later I could feel it in my lat area but have no idea which exercise had caused this?
Thanks
Scott
I mean - your lats can get sore from wide grip pullups - you’ll be using your lats a bit in every variation, so it could have been either, or both. People also frequently do close grip rows in such a way that targets their mid back inadvertently - arching their back and pulling to their sternum instead of neutral and driving their elbows dowards. Lots of people, in general, have developed upper/mid backs and underdeveloped lats.
So knowing I really suck at pull-ups or chins of any kind and don’t see getting good enough at them in the near future to do reps what is my next best bet to work my none existent lats.
Thanks
Scott
Pulldowns. Negative pull-ups can work fine too, but lat pulldowns, with a close grip, driving your elbows downwards. Practice flexing your lats, and make that happen. Mind muscle connection is a big part of isolating muscles that you tend to neglect.
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