Transwoman Takes First Place

[oglebee]

@tim_cappello

You are either born a male or a female. That’s the beginning, middle, and end of it.

I think you should think about some of these things before you post them.

You are either male or female.

There is overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Literally millions of people around the world born intersex. To some degree.

Biology is a bit more complex than that.

Maybe you don’t know about these conditions. Unlike some people I do think ignorance is an excuse but now you know enough that you should go do some research.

@Californiagrown

Sounds like you don’t grasp what trans is. It’s separate from biological sex.

Is it really. I am not sure about that. Its very much entwined with biological sex. As in the one they were born is the wrong one in their mind.

They work very hard on their secondary sex characteristics. Also, there are like two groups of trans people. I am not deep in the culture so I don’t have the words for this but I will just say old school vs new school.

Old school being a certain group of people who were trans and the end goal was to become a female appearing person who no one who ever know was born a man.

The new school of trans/non binary is much more androgynous. So many of them look more man than women. Like nails done and make up on but that is as far as they go but they identify as women and prefer female pronouns.

Old school would scoff at that. Its like two totally different camps/cultures. Its pretty interesting actually.

Like the old school were out and trans when that shit could get you killed. Even in the major cities. Now you get a ribbon and all sorts of social status points when you come out as trans/non binary.

@tim_cappello

You are not born trans.

What makes a person a man or women?

You strike me as the kind of person who would agree with the following statement:

“Men and women are inherently different. Physically and mentally”

What accounts for these differences well many things right.

It has long been known that there are physical differences in the sizes of certain regions of the brain in women and men. Even the way parts of the brain function are slightly different.

Nature some times has a mishap:
-Sclerodactyl born with 12 fingers
-Girl born with ambigous genitalia because of congenital adrenal hyperplasia.
-Man born with two fully functioning symmetrical dicks because he won the lottery.

You get my point.

Is it really outside the realm of possibility that whatever process is behind the masculinizaiton or feminization of the human brain in utero could fuck up and lead to a result where someone is born with a masculinized or feminized body but the brain that is more similar to someone of the opposite sex.

If you admit that then you admit that someone can be born trans. That group of people is a lot smaller then what the numbers probably say.

But who knows. There are so many synthetic hormones circulating in our environment and we really don’t know the long term affects of that.

[mr.v3lv3t]

I simply didn’t see in any of your previous posts mention of the 4th scenario described above.

I’m willing to bet we’re closer to agreeing than disagreeing on the specifics of the “push” outcomes. I say that based on your posts which describe scenarios 1-3, I do not take umbrage with those points.

In the context of this thread though, it is about a biological male born trans competing against females. So in this case, being trans is very different than other physical deficiencies that would limit ones ability to compete. You might say it’s completely opposite.

[Aragorn]

@oglebee

Yeah. Both are right decisions and both are wrong decisions. Depending on your precious feelings haha. But I do firmly believe that one of those decisions is the more right one and I would argue this can be proven empirically. But alas some people have precious feelings that prevent them from honestly looking at the narrative

This is an entirely accurate picture of the current mess haha.

@oglebee

I suspect you have probably already heard of “rapid onset gender dysphoria”.

A phenomena in which 1 girl in a social group identifies as trans and suddenly within a short period of time nearly all of them are now trans and wanting to initiate hormonal treatment.

Its like some shared delusion.

A shared psychosis perhaps

Absolutely. Rapid onset gender dysphoria is one of the exact scenarios I had in mind - it’s 100% certainly not biological, and actually psychosis is a term I’d happily apply to it… Like those stupid pregnancy pacts.

I’m not a psychologist though.

@oglebee

I would imagine if you were to initiate hormonal treatment to facilitate transitioning in context of gender dysphoria you would certainly have to exclude concurrent or an entirely separate psychiatric pathology.

They really don’t or shouldn’t be handing out test/estrogen like its skittles. I can’t see them doing that with out throughout screening for a separate pathology that could explain the dysphoria the patient is experiencing.

I would imagine so as well, but in the crazy social consciousness at least that is not how it goes. In this case I share the concerns of twojarslave, whereby it becomes so “accepted” in the name of feelings that we sort of create a pseudo rapid onset gender dysphoria for large swathes of people. You can call it whatever you want, but those ribbons and that social status bonus can influence.

In this case to clarify they told the kid to try somewhere else. I’m actually not sure of how rigorous the medical/psychological vetting is for transitioning. I do know that in general medical clinics flat refuse testosterone for most reasons in terms while they’ll hand out estrogen contraceptives much more readily.

It’s a sore point with me since it’s a blatant double standard but it’s not going away any time soon.

[twojarslave]

@Aragorn

100%. I don’t mean agreeing with or even liking it, but some of the absolute shit I’ve seen behavior wise towards LGBT people from conservatives is just disgusting

Absolutely. I believe it requires leadership in thought, expression and action. My trans friend gets no special treatment. I don’t play the pronoun game, but I don’t speak disrespectfully because there is no disrespect to express. I can run between those raindrops with a good choice of words, which is not lost on my friend, which is why we’ve been good friends long before the trans stuff came about.

There is room for everyone under the umbrella of the Free Market Principles and behind the shield of Separation of Church and State. Sure, there’s quite a few holes in the umbrella and the shield may get pierced at times, but it remains demonstrably superior to any alternative path we’ve seen so far.

We need better messengers and leaders.

[Aragorn]

@twojarslave

Sure, there’s quite a few holes in the umbrella and the shield may get pierced at times, but it remains demonstrably superior to any alternative path we’ve seen so far.

We need better messengers and leaders.

100% agreed on both counts.

[twojarslave]

@oglebee

A little assessment largely left to the discretion of the child’s physician to determine if they have the mental capacity to make their own medical decisions. Which is simply whether the physician deems the child to understand the medical treatment being proposed.

I don’t necessarily agree with it. But its not that much different than a 13 year old being given oral contraceptives by her GP without her parents knowledge.

I’m glad you enjoyed the subtle joke I made about Hubbard, but this seems awful to me. I understand that you don’t necessarily agree with the assessment process, but I have to express my distaste for what you’re describing.

Parents need to have the final say over some jackass doctor unless they’re somehow adjudicated mentally defective. A doctor’s quackery, a child’s concerns about harm from (insert parental action here), imagined harm thought up by upper-middle class white liberal women, or even plausible future harm ought not over-ride a capable parent’s judgement in matters concerning their own children.

[oglebee]

@twojarslave

I’m glad you enjoyed the subtle joke I made about Hubbard, but this seems awful to me. I understand that you don’t necessarily agree with the assessment process, but I have to express my distaste for what you’re describing.

oh twojarslave. I would imagine you and I are 100 % in the same camp. I echo your sentiments on the subject entirely based on what I have seen you write so far. Just to be clear.

Seriously though check out the Gilleck Competence and the case surrounding it.

Minors have rights too. Its an interesting ethical dilemma. Its not so clear cut. Of course it is when it comes to a 4 year old, an 8 year old. But at a certain point the waters become murky.

So I believe in Australia you cannot be under 18 and receive hormonal therapies for gender dysphoria.

In the states a cursory browse showed 16 to be the age. So under that = no hormonal therapy.

Transgender Kids Could Get Hormone Therapy at Earlier Ages – NBC Bay Area.

That seems reasonable to me.

To me the real issue is how cavalier people are regarding treatments that have life long impacts.

This departure from transgender identity being a naturally occurring but abnormal psychology which would perhaps benefit from some sort of psychological therapy to jumping straight to being an 'ally" by giving into whatever they want is kinda fucked.

Aragorn put it best earlier with the following:

@Aragorn

I would imagine so as well, but in the crazy social consciousness at least that is not how it goes. In this case I share the concerns of twojarslave, whereby it becomes so “accepted” in the name of feelings that we sort of create a pseudo rapid onset gender dysphoria for large swathes of people. You can call it whatever you want, but those ribbons and that social status bonus can influence.

@twojarslave

Parents need to have the final say over some jackass doctor unless they’re somehow adjudicated mentally defective.

Well it wouldn’t be the doctor having the final say would it?

It would be the child. The doctor is merely obliging the wishes of the child who had been deemed competent to make their own decisions.

And I understand that is your issue or one of them. And I don’t necessarily agree with it.

But to be clear:

Trans women should not be allowed to compete with cis women. If there is any chance they might have an advantage. Which they obviously do but at the very minimum to those who believe they should be allowed to compete they at least have to accept the potential that there is that chance they may have an advantage. If you make that concession then you cannot allow them to play because that would be unfair to the women.

Its actually fucking moronic that the above statement even needs to be discussed.

Also that smug smirk on their face sitting atop that podium. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a more punchable face.

[unreal24278]

@oglebee

The earlier they begin transitioning the more likely they are to achieve an external appearance congruent with how they identify.

Can give a child GnRH agonists to stop the induction or progression of puberty. Wait a few years, if they decide they don’t wish to transition you can pull the treatment and pubertal induction will ensue. @Aragorn

@oglebee

Well in the UK and Australia Gillick v West Norfolk and Wisbech Area Health Authority set precedent for what is now known as the Gillick competence. A little assessment largely left to the discretion of the child’s physician to determine if they have the mental capacity to make their own medical decisions. Which is simply wether the physician deems the child to understand the medical treatment being proposed.

Although with the topic @twojarslave has mentioned the age here for “no consequence” (from a legal standpoint) sexual interaction is sixteen

@oglebee

But its not that much different than a 13 year old being given oral contraceptives by her GP without her parents knowledg

Not sure if this is legal either? Special circumstances typically need to be present and more than one medical practitioner has to sign off on it.

@marine77

A bunch of sub par “men” just said fuck it and decided to magically change genders to be able to compete.

I never won a state title in wrestling… Who knew all I had to do was a dick tuck and change my name to Zoey or Juanita

I wonder whether these obnoxious standards apply for FTM athletes? I ask because getting a TUE for TRT is notoriously difficult in Australia, actually guidelines for allocating TRT to a patient are purportedly the strictest in the world (literally). I was looking into it and it appears I’d never be be able to legitimately compete in boxing, muay thai etc in Aus.

Plenty of European countries and whatnot don’t give a rats arse about this, but in Aus (nanny state) getting a TUE for something like TRT is extremely difficult. If you don’t have klinefelters or something, chances are you aren’t getting that exemption. Granted if you are on TRT and have half a brain you’ll instantaneously figure out “there are ways around this”. Various testosterone preparations can elicit a eugonadal concentration of T (without stupidly high peaks or troughs) of which probably won’t skew T/ET ratios.

There is a massive stigma behind testosterone, probably mediated by how open it is to abuse… but it’s easy to get a TUE for prescription amphetamines (do you really think that doesn’t improve performance?) Cortisone is frequently recommended as a first line treatment for athletes, not hard to get a TUE for painkillers if injured… but TeStOsTeRoNe is a BIOLOGICAL WEAPON even when implemented in sane therapeutic dosages to treat a medical condition.

Wonder if the woke mentality bypasses our stance on testosterone for otherwise deficient men.

to note, I understand why TRT is banned or hard to get an exemption. Training like an athlete puts the body under a lot of stress. Many athletes have borderline low or flat out hypogonadal concentrations of testosterone come competition time. If I’m in the ring with a TT of 700ng/dl and you have a TT of 300ng/dl (provided androgen sensitivity is equitable) the clear advantage goes too me provided our training stimuli/work ethic is on par.

What I’m wondering is whether FTM athletes will get a pass.

[oglebee]

@unreal24278

Can give a child GnRH agonists to stop the induction or progression of puberty. Wait a few years, if they decide they don’t wish to transition you can pull the treatment and pubertal induction will ensue.

Yes. That is an option. It is still an intervention. And as such it still has potential for harm. That is the argument the other side would say. And a very valid one.

@unreal24278

Not sure if this is legal either? Special circumstances typically need to be present and more than one medical practitioner has to sign off on it.

Well if you had looked up Gillick competence you would have also found Frasier guidlines. Which have to do with prescribing birth control to those under 16. Yes it is legal.

[unreal24278]

@oglebee

Well if you had looked up Gillick competence you would have also found Frasier guidlines. Which have to do with prescribing birth control to those under 16. Yes it is legal.

so long as two medical practitioners sign off on it and provided the circumstances necessitate going birth control (which can include having to deal with incredibly painful menstrual cramps, not merely the prospect of having unprotected sex)

[oglebee]

@unreal24278

so long as two medical practitioners sign off on it and provided the circumstances necessitate going birth control (which can include having to deal with incredibly painful menstrual cramps, not merely the prospect of having unprotected sex)

So yes its legal.

[unreal24278]

@oglebee

And as such it still has potential for harm. That is the argument the other side would say. And a very valid one.

Agreed, though less potential for harm as opposed to actually giving a 13y/o synthetic testosterone or estrogen. The mental anguish imparted on someone who is truly transgender being forced to watch themselves transform into the antithesis of what they wish to be can be tremendous. Some are driven to suicide, self harm, addiction and the likes.

It’s a risk/benefit assessment

@oglebee

So yes its legal.

Legal, but not exactly a cakewalk to access

[oglebee]

@unreal24278

Legal, but not exactly a cakewalk to access

You have no clue what you are talking about.

[twojarslave]

@oglebee

It would be the child. The doctor is merely obliging the wishes of the child who had been deemed competent to make their own decisions.

And I understand that is your issue or one of them. And I don’t necessarily agree with it.

I’m sure compelling cases can be made that require deeper consideration, but as a general rule we should be walking our children back from bad ideas.

We certainly shouldn’t be planting them, nurturing them and going out of our way to validate them. Because choosing transgenderism as a child is a bad idea.

I accept the notion that some people really are born that way and even arrive at this understanding of themselves as a minor.

It’s still a good idea to wait until you’re at least 18 to pull the trigger on drugs or surgery. We all suffered through adolescence. It’s an important part of becoming a grounded adult.

[unreal24278]

@oglebee

You have no clue what you are talking about.

Agree to disagree. You aren’t going on BC at age 13-15 without parental consent unless adequate merit is present. Going through the process requiring two medical practitioners to sign off isn’t going to be a quick day procedure either.

[unreal24278]

@twojarslave

It’s still a good idea to wait until you’re at least 18 to pull the trigger on drugs or surgery.

For a MTF individual or a FTM individual this equates to going through puberty, becoming fully virilised or feminised, undergoing a transition and never quite “looking the part”. I’d argue the age of 16-18 is correct, though hormonal blockade to avoid the development of excess secondary sexual characteristics isn’t a bad idea imo.

There’s also the prospect of many sourcing black market hormones in response to being unable to acquire treatment.

[twojarslave]

@unreal24278

I’d argue the age of 16-18 is correct, though hormonal blockade to avoid the development of excess secondary sexual characteristics isn’t a bad idea imo.

How many children have you raised to that age? 16 is still a child. So is 18, but not legally.

Your entire line of reasoning is the problem I believe needs to be addressed. Children latch on to crazy ideas all the time. They might believe they are in love with a 30 year old, steroids are a good idea, communism can work or perhaps they believe they are trans.

A parents job is to walk those notions back and guide the child to an adult life free of trauma and mental disorders.

We don’t validate their wild ideas about themselves. We certainly don’t want it so the child can bypass their parents with the help of some quack doctor like Biden’s pick Higgins.

[oglebee]

@unreal24278

Agree to disagree. You aren’t going on BC at age 13-15 without parental consent unless adequate merit is present. Going through the process requiring two medical practitioners to sign off isn’t going to be a quick day procedure either.

I’ve noticed any discourse with you tends to go this route. I call you out on something and you shift your goal posts. Then you restate what you said again. Which wasn’t even accurate to begin with.

For example:

You say your not sure its legal to prescribe contraceptives to minors.

I refer you to the seminal case that set the precedent for the legality of minors consenting for contraceptives.

Then its not an issue of wether its legal. Now its that its actually really hard to do even though you were right it is legal Oglebee.

But its not hard. And thats why I am telling you that you have no idea what you are talking about. Obviously there is a bit more and I mean just a bit more to a consult with a 13 year old requesting contraceptives than there is with an 18 year old. You need to screen for abuse etc. But you certainly don’t need two physicians signing off on it.

Here are the guidelines spelled out for you:

It is lawful for doctors to provide contraceptive advice and treatment without parental consent providing certain criteria are met. These criteria, known as the Fraser guidelines, were laid down by Lord Fraser in the House of Lords’ case and require the professional to be satisfied that:[14]

• the young person will understand the professional’s advice;
• the young person cannot be persuaded to inform their parents;
• the young person is likely to begin, or to continue having, sexual intercourse with or without contraceptive treatment;
• unless the young person receives contraceptive treatment, their physical or mental health, or both, are likely to suffer;
• the young person’s best interests require them to receive contraceptive advice or treatment with or without parental consent.

If you want Australia’s take on it read this:

200703bird.pdf

Its essentially the same thing.

@twojarslave

I accept the notion that some people really are born that way and even arrive at this understanding of themselves as a minor.

It’s still a good idea to wait until you’re at least 18 to pull the trigger on drugs or surgery. We all suffered through adolescence. It’s an important part of becoming a grounded adult.

Yeah I agree with your conclusion just not how you arrived at it necessarily.

I just looked up a 2016 article from the Williams Institute out of UCLA according to their reports 0.6 % of the population identified as transgender. Thats 1.4 million people. A lot more than I thought. Interestingly that number was double what it was the decade before.

We will know pretty soon if this push for early transitioning works or not. A lot of data is already out there. Meaning longitudinal studies following up post transitioning to see if their mental health ailments were alleviated after transitioning.

So far from what I’ve seen is the data is conflicting. But I suspect because the subject is so political that people aren’t being honest. Regardless if it truly doesn’t work you won’t be able to hide that.

In one my grad courses an MD gave a seminar on transgender health and how important it was to identify them early and facilitate their treatments and that how all the studies out there show how that leads to improved health outcomes. Which as I’ve just mentioned is complete bullshit because we really don’t know. But yeah that was the one seminar we got on that subject and if none of my colleagues ever look into further they will likely continue believing that. All 95 of them.

[twojarslave]

That all makes sense if doctors start with the premise of taking children’s malformed ideas of themselves at face value without further scrutiny.

How can something like this even be accurately measured in a child’s mind? Whatever tests there are, could they not be easily gamed?

[tim_cappello]

Exactly. It’s not like children can’t be groomed to “feel like a girl” one day by an authority figure.