[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
So what would you say is a good daily protein amount? .6 g/lb? Even if you’re still trying to add muscle?[/quote]
My opinion is no one really knows.[/quote]
Does 1/10 of a banana help my deadlift?
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
[quote]BrickHead wrote:
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
I’ve read from some sources (most were articles on this site) that eating soy products is a great way to increase estrogen. Is that a concern for you? [/quote]
I’ve read that for years on bodybuilding websites. However I do not buy it. Phytoestrogens are not the same as estrogen. I get my estradiol checked every three or four months, so I can see if this actually holds water. There are vegans taking in more than 50 grams of soy protein a day with no ill effects, my close friend being one of them.
Same goes for thyroid function. If remember correctly, there was some study in a thyroidology journal which showed no negative effects on thyroid function. I am usually too lazy, and, to be honest, disinterested in shuffling studies around. There are other men who love doing that. 
[quote]
I agree that the need for protein tends to be overblown, however if my memory serves me correctly (which it doesn’t always), people are typically told to take in 1.5 or more grams per pound of goal weight when they are specifially trying to gain weight and are “hard gainers” (I know there are a lot that would argue there is no such thing, just people who don’t eat enough). [/quote]
For a long time now, the general recommendation has been 0.8-1 g per pound. I’ve seen some trainers and nutritionists recommend or plan 1.5 to 2 grams per pound, and I believe that is an outrageous amount of protein. There has been some research (again, too lazy, but might look for it, and it has been referenced by Lonnie Lowery on this site before) in which it was shown that a measly 20 to 30 grams of protein three to five times a day is enough for muscle growth, irrespective of bodyweight. I think this research also showed steroid users who gained something like 13 pounds of LBM in a few months with this amount which is likely far lower than 1 gram per pound.
Many dietitians recommend 1.2 to 1.7 g/kg and in some cases, 2 g/kg, depending on how low total calories are.
Mike Mentor stated over and over that he would consume 60 to 80 grams of protein a day and he was an elite competitor, and I don’t have a reason to disbelieve him considering he didn’t have anything to gain from such a statement, nor was he some guy that liked to pull people’s chain. Nasser el Sonbaty said he only took in about 100 grams a day and he was enormous. Again, I don’t see why he’d say that; it’s not shocking, and if anything would have sponsors not endorsing him with their products. I have an acquaintance that knew Nasser very well, and while she did say he liked to rile people up by saying dumb crap, I don’t see how that would be effective in this case.
[quote]
Is it that common to recommend so much protein when you’ve already done a lot of work and are already at a certain point? What percentage of bodyweight would 100 to 120 grams of protein fall into for you? if you don’t mind me asking… [/quote]
Around 0.5 to 0.6 g/lb. Yes, I think you can get away with less once you’ve built the muscle with a bit more, but I no longer believe you need so damn much. Dave Tate reached an enormous size taking in less than a gram per pound, as he said in his articles dealing with his transformation with John Berardi.
[quote]
My logic is that if it is below 50% grams per pound for goal bodyweight, I’m thinking it might be a little low. Also, I am aware that you’re just testing it out. This is really more just for discussion purposes than anything else. I’m bored at work, haha. [/quote]
That’s fine. I used to think that it would be too low, but, as I said, I don’t think it’s so low that gains or maintenance can’t be had. Besides, 100 to 120 grams is more than enough for well being and health–absolutely nothing unhealthy with this amount.
[quote]
I feel like the same could be true in reverse. I’ve talked to a few vegans and seen some of their documentary videos that they like to show to sell people on their lifestyle and it always seemed to me like the videos and concepts could easily be getting pushed because they have something to sell, as well. Your thoughts?[/quote]
Of course. There are vegan books, clothing, shampoos, food, supplements, you name it. There’s nothing wrong with selling things, including protein powder, some of which I’ve liked and used. It’s just I noticed the ones pushing insane protein amounts (like someone well all know of very well, but I will not mention, who does recommend unnecessary amounts) have protein powder to sell. Again, nothing wrong with the sales aspect of it. It’s just misleading about the nutrition recommendation. [/quote]
Well spoken. I am also one who doesn’t feel like searching through tons of research, either. Your reputation to know what you’re talking about has been pretty solidified to me through this thread.
This discussion is reaffirming beliefs that I had already been coming to realize, myself. I’ll always be a primarily meat and potatoes kind of person, but it’s good to know that I don’t need to strain so much to get so much damn protein in every day.
So what would you say is a good daily protein amount? .6 g/lb? Even if you’re still trying to add muscle?[/quote]
seems like the importance of brotein is inversely proportional to how many calories you’re eating.
Eating a shitload of calories? Don’t need so much protein. Not eating a shitload of calories? Need more protein.
Guys like Mentzer or whatever might not have been eating all that much protein (relatively), but I’ll bet they were eating more than a couple of calories.
I have to say though that I never really started gaining weight until I decided to give the 1g per lb of bodyweight thing a try. That said, it could just be that with all the extra protein I was eating (and still do eat) that I was consuming a lot more fat and carbs (and so, obviously, calories), which would possibly explain the weight gain.
I dunno. These days a fairly substantial part of my protein intake has been coming from Humapro and so far I seem a little leaner, less bloated with no loss of strength or anything. Time might come when I get the majority of my protein from EAAs.
Well I ask for discussion purposes.
Most people here should know by now that everyone is different so the only way to know for sure what a good number is is to start somewhere and adjust until you’ve found the optimal amount.
Derek, you’re a funny guy. For some reason your comment makes me think of Mariokart…
Yogi, my experiences were similar. I didn’t really gain a whole lot of weight until I started taking in more protein every or almost every day. Mostly in the form of protein shakes.
The biggest gains I’ve ever seen came when I upped protein intake. Which I now suppose could be attributed to an increase in calories just as much as “brotein”, haha (if not more). I’m not sure if I’ve ever taken in quite enough protein to make it a full gram per pound of bodyweight, though. I’d say I’m usually around 70 or 80%. For a while I thought I needed 1.5, but I don’t think I was ever able to manage doing that for longer than a week.
The way we can tell if an increased amount is the cause of added muscle is by increasing protein while keeping total calories the same. If not, then someone can just gain more muscle but keeping protein the same and adding more fat and/or carbs.
I agree with Push. No one seems to know some specific amount, considering people make gains and function fine on anywhere from 70 to… uh… 400 grams.
[quote]CLUNK wrote:
[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
[quote]CLUNK wrote:
In my own experience, dropping protein grams made no difference in my physique’s appearance, or gym performance. Carbs and total caloric intake were the keys to keeping mass and energy in the gym.
How is your digestion with this new “line-up?” Although I am still a flesh eater (grass-fed beef daily, all types of fish, chicken, free-range eggs) I have fairly recently added organic leafy greens in large quantities to every meal, and my digestion has been the best it’s been in years.
[/quote]
CLUNK -
How much protein are you eating, if you don’t mind answering?
BTW, you’re new avatar is a HUGE improvement.
You’d think there could be one little corner of the internet where all the avatars are attractive, or even shirtless and handsome. Apparently not. 
[/quote]
Thanks, Puff. I hesitate to post my real self, so ugly dudes, strange dogs, and slabs of meat will have to do for now.
My protein per day is in the 120 gm range. Sometimes less. There will even be times where I go for many hours without a protein source, and I’ll have a huge protein meal eventually in the day.
Brick mentioned Mike Mentzer, who was one of the first bodybuilders outspoken about the protein “scam.” Mike said (paraphrasing) that the recommended daily protein dose and frequency are grossly overestimated for making progress. We would never have survived as a species if muscle tissue breakdown and catabolization occurred within a 2-hour stretch of fasting. The human body is highly adaptive. Muscle growth, of course, is a result of adaptation. [/quote]
Got it. I should have asked you how much you weigh. I’m assuming you weigh more than 120 pounds, so you’re eating less than 1 gram per pound BW.
As a vegetarian lifter of over 20 years I say congratulations and welcome!
I went through my entire military career as a vegetarian and never had any problems. Admittedly I was Navy, which makes food considerably easier and better than the Army. Personally I’ve never had a problem getting protein, milk and eggs being my staples, topping up with grains and pulses and Quorn. However I will say that I’ve gone vegan a few times (usually girlfriend related!) and I soon found that I suffered with it. I couldn’t get enough protein without using a vegan protein powder, which I never found one which didn’t taste like used cat litter! I’ll admit I haven’t tried any for a couple of years and so it’s possible that they’ve drastically improved, but I doubt it. All I could find in the UK were unflavoured hemp protein, the aforementioned used cat litter flavour with a definite aroma of ammonia, or “chocolate” pea protein powder which clumped and clogged and tasted more like burnt coffee without any sweetener and a very lingering after taste. So I’m afraid that I could never maintain vegan for more than a few weeks, basically the same time span as the girlfriend!
These days I don’t feel bad about my milk and eggs as my milk is fresh from my goats and my rescued ex-battery farm chickens provide a shocking amount of eggs each morning! I’ll admit it’s a nice position to be in!
[quote]Yogi wrote:
I broke up with a girl once purely because she was vegan. I’m not proud of it, but jesus christ have you ever tried to take a vegan out for dinner? You have to go to like 6 restaurants before you can find ANYTHING they can eat.
Just FYI, when dating a vegan, Chinese restaurants are your friend, but there’s only so much Chinese food you can eat.
Not saying that you and I will have a problem, Brick. We’ve spoken a few times but I’ve never really gotten that kind of a vibe from you, so I’m sure we’ll be ok.[/quote]
When I met my wife the only dietary restriction she had was the flesh of land based animals. She is now a full blown vegan. Maybe because of the transition it wasn’t hard to adapt. Figuring out which restaurants to go to isn’t an issue as most places have at least one offering that is vegan. We don’t eat out much anyway because I’m fucking awesome in the kitchen.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Brick,
Given that your reservations about meat has to do with how they are raised and harvested, have you given thought to controlling that process yourself? There are essentially two options for taking responsibility for this, hunting and owning a small farm/homestead.
I’m pretty sure you live in New York city (forgive the assumption if I’m wrong - relying on memory of your posting history here) so having a small homestead may be out of the question for you right now, but how about in the future? I live in Virginia, and I have several friends who live farther out and have some animals that they raise for meat. The animals are free range, treated very well, and harvested in a humane way. But given your lifestyle and career, a small farm may not be a realistic alternative for you right now.
Which brings us to hunting. You can hunt with a firearm, or a bow. I hunt with a bow. Hunting places 100% of the responsibility of the harvest on YOU. And it’s big responsibility. I’ve gut shot a deer before and it’s a pretty shitty feeling - especially if you miss because you are taking a shot outside of your effective range (being immature and impatient). But for the most part, my shots have been very ethical and the animal has expired quickly. There are all kinds of animals that one can hunt, not just deer. There’s a season for just about everything. And what about fishing? Surely there’s nothing unethical about catching a wild salmon in a stream…
My point is, the main thing I “heard” in your post was that the thought of being part of an ignorant, consumer driven culture bothers you because of the suffering and waste that culture inadvertently creates. As a hunter, you are a steward of the environment, an honorable and “conservation” minded individual who takes 100% responsibility for making a clean and ethical kill. It’s actually kind of a spiritual experience if you have a proper mind set.
Please take this as offering alternatives, and not as criticizing your choices. What you eat is your business! But how you feel about what you eat can be entirely within your control.
Good Luck![/quote]
None of that solves the core issue which is the “killing” part that he mentioned in the first post.[/quote]
He wrote this: (emphasis mine)
My reason for doing this is purely ethical, after seeing the utterly horrifying and tear-jerking scenes on factory farms, including those for clothing.
I had been buying organic meat and eggs for some time, despite the expense because I was of the belief that so long as the animal is treated humanely while alive, it is alright for it to be killed swiftly for food in the end. I thought and sometimes still think, despite it seeming juvenile, something like, “Well, we are animals, just we humans are animals might be at the top of the food chain in some cases, and like how other animals kill animals for food, we do the same.” The counter thought I have buzzing around my head is that although that might make some sense, I believe we are at a point in which we are killing, breeding, and eating animals in such gross excess. Look at how freely people grossly over eat all food products, including blitzing though burgers, wings and blue cheese dressing while being entranced by a ball game. I myself, even being a dietitian and gymrat myself never thought about how my food wound up on my table or how clothing wound up on my body till recently.
I took this to mean he had a problem with the WAY they were killed and the gross excess of the food industry in general. I heard him say he doesn’t like the concepts of raising and breeding animals strictly for consumption and that they are not treated or harvested in a way he can support.
If I’m wrong, I’m sure he’ll let me know.
Hunting has nothing to do with any of that.
Here’s some “food for thought” ba dum pshh that addresses some of what I HEARD him saying.
[/quote]
I couldn’t agree more with what you have written. There is a huge disconnect between us and the food we eat. People turn a blind eye because they are under the assumption they need piles of cheap meat at every meal. An old timer I know surprised me recently during a conversation. We were talking about hunting and he said he used to hunt hard, but as he got older he believed killing animals himself was cruel so now he goes to the grocery store to buy a steak.
Even if you don’t care about animal welfare you should be concerned as a consumer about the meat you are getting. Time and time again, the footage from the factory farms show animals covered in feces with open sores oozing puss. Is this what you want to eat and feed your family? People don’t eat food that falls on the floor but they will happily eat meat that is processed in this manner.
Lastly, Donnie Vincent has some incredible footage from his hunts. He is the only modern day hunting personality who I can watch for more than 30 seconds. His hunts are guided and out of reach for most people due to their cost (up to $20K) but he is a class act and a great ambassador for the sport. I wish more hunters were like him and not the slobs I see out in the woods.
[quote]kpsnap wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Here’s some clarification on my earlier comment about this whole deal being silly. When the armchair psychologist in me sees folks like Brick testing the waters like this my first assumption is something is lacking in one’s life, an emptiness if you will, that causes one to want to do something to make a difference in this useless life of ours.
Life is too soft. We have too much free time. Our “struggles” are pretty much limited to hoisting more weight in the gym and tailoring our diet to improve our body composition.
So there comes a point where we have to agree with King Solomon that “all is vanity.” Still, we want to push back against that thesis so we embrace causes like this one which superficially cause us to trust that we have a chance to individually do our part to help heal this sick world.[/quote]
This post is really profound and is just the tip of the iceberg of what I see as the root cause of so many problems today.[/quote]
I agree with him, but wouldn’t you rather have the problems we are faced with today rather than the problems faced by previous generations? If we’ve mastered fulfilling our basic needs, should we not continue to improve other areas of our lives even if it’s not necessary for survival?
[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
Do you hunt yourself? I haven’t had the chance to read the whole thread, so you may have already addressed this, but I do hunt, and I know a lot of hunters, and though most urbanites may think of them as slobs the majority of hunters do think about issues such as what constitutes an ethical kill. Of course there are also idiots who hunt, but there are idiots involved in any and every activity.
The old timer’s attitude blows my mind. But I’m the kind of guy who would rather clean a dirty toilet myself than get somebody else to do it. And I believe that most animals killed by hunters die a more humane death and more importantly lived a more humane life than the vast majority of commercially raised livestock.[/quote]
Yes, I do. I don’t live in the city, either. I should clarify my use of the term slob. Around here, hunters refer to people who abuse the land and don’t follow regulations slobs. I’m not saying all hunters are slobs, just that many of the hunters in the area I live are slobs. I certainly didn’t mean to suggest all hunters are slobs. Sorry for the confusion.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
So what would you say is a good daily protein amount? .6 g/lb? Even if you’re still trying to add muscle?[/quote]
My opinion is no one really knows.[/quote]
Does 1/10 of a banana help my deadlift? [/quote]
Depends.
How heavy is the banana?[/quote]
If only Al Shades were still around even in his final form: the minimal Prospect 
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
So what would you say is a good daily protein amount? .6 g/lb? Even if you’re still trying to add muscle?[/quote]
My opinion is no one really knows.[/quote]
Does 1/10 of a banana help my deadlift? [/quote]
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Stumbled across this today:
Research Points To Mental Health Risks Associated With Meatless Diet
Lettuce is Ã?¢??three times worse than bacon’ for emissions and vegetarian diets could be bad for environment
Hitler was a vegetarian, so this explains a lot.
(Yes, joking.)[/quote]
Oh god, lol. I had a feeling someone would bring this up. Now that I am currently a vegetarian (and near vegan considering only a few says per week have eggs and dairy has been cut completely), I have perused some vegan websites for recipes and general reading. I actually was NOT surprised that on every other damn one of them there is mention of Hitler. It’s almost as if many vegans want to find proof that he was NOT vegetarian, perhaps to make themselves feel a bit more peaceful or to fend off those who try to paint vegs as wackos–even though if they dug a little deeper they would find sources --including close associates like Leon Degrelle–who state that he was sort of a “flexitarian” (our current term) for much of his life, but full vegetarian for the last four years of his life.
Militant vegans who want to make themselves feel comfortable have said, "Oh, they weren’t really into vegetarianism. They outlawed veg parties in Europe, while ignoring the fact that they were outlawed because nearly all of them were pro-communist or liberal.
No matter what convincing or emotional shenanigans people want to play, their own naivety shows how ignorant they are in not knowing that there was a strong “green” contingency in the NS party, and some wanted to eventually cut down on hunting and slowly abolish slaughterhouses in Europe. Many were staunch environmentalists and wildlife conservationists.
Even JB’s PN website had an article in which Hitler was mentioned. I sometimes wish I could go for a day or two without someone mentioning his name. It’s tiring. I
I can see why vegans come across as intensely annoying. t’s almost as if some vegans, judging from their writings, expect, or even DEMAND, that if one is a vegan he or she MUST think and behave in a desired way with all other facets of life, with one vegan author taking issue with animal rights activist Gay Yourofsky because of his unbridled racism to Palestinians. As a Jew myself I find that unsettling but I don’t make demands on people because of what they eat or their attitudes on animal rights/welfare and they can dislike whoever they damn please at the end of the day, so long as they don’t mistreat those who they dislike. To wit, I have no problem with who or what people dislike or don’t want to associate with, including if they dislike ME or my kind. MISTREATMENT and persecution is what I don’t approve of.
Anyway, if people were to dig deeper they would realize that the eating patterns and practices which they hold so dearly–intermittent fasting and vegetarianism being two of them–they would realize that the some of the earliest proponents of them showed no love to those who were not of their kind.
OK, rant over, lol.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Hitler was a vegetarian, so this explains a lot.
(Yes, joking.)[/quote]
Godwin’s Law
[quote]jeremielemauvais wrote:
Im curious, do you have Greek ancestry by any chance?
[/quote]
Not anywhere near. Mostly Northern European.
[quote]CLUNK wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Hitler was a vegetarian, so this explains a lot.
(Yes, joking.)[/quote]
Godwin’s Law
[/quote]
Except in this case, accurate. Hitler WAS a vegetarian. He was also nice to dogs.
But, yes, completely irrelevant. Just fun to gig Brickhead with it, as I knew he was also Jewish.
FWIW, in undergrad I worked in the Maseeh Hall (? can’t remember), which was the kosher food cafeteria at MIT because I had zero money (and unlike the idiot students of today, declined to go into debt for my education). Most of the meals were vegetarian, simply because kosher meat is expensive.
This attracted lots of other students who were just vegetarian and not necessarily Jewish.
Anyway, a lot them were really nice, and a lot were assholes who talked down to me because they assumed I was a “mere” cafeteria worker (or they talked down because I was poor and not afraid to work with my hands).
Standing in the service line also gave me a fair amount of time to watch people. I further observed the same people about campus (they generally didn’t recognize me without my hairnet and apron).
Anyway, a fair plurality of vegetarians are hyper-sensitive to animals, but really nasty to humans. Probably slightly more than the general population.
I would have thought it to be the opposite (and it sometimes is).
I developed a theory that they are attempting to compensate for being assholes to humans by being overly kind to animals.
(That, or people are just crappy to people in food service, and I mainly had a sample of vegetarians.)
It’s all good.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]CLUNK wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
Hitler was a vegetarian, so this explains a lot.
(Yes, joking.)[/quote]
Godwin’s Law
[/quote]
Except in this case, accurate. Hitler WAS a vegetarian. He was also nice to dogs.
But, yes, completely irrelevant. Just fun to gig Brickhead with it, as I knew he was also Jewish.
FWIW, in undergrad I worked in the Maseeh Hall (? can’t remember), which was the kosher food cafeteria at MIT because I had zero money (and unlike the idiot students of today, declined to go into debt for my education). Most of the meals were vegetarian, simply because kosher meat is expensive.
This attracted lots of other students who were just vegetarian and not necessarily Jewish.
Anyway, a lot them were really nice, and a lot were assholes who talked down to me because they assumed I was a “mere” cafeteria worker (or they talked down because I was poor and not afraid to work with my hands).
Standing in the service line also gave me a fair amount of time to watch people. I further observed the same people about campus (they generally didn’t recognize me without my hairnet and apron).
Anyway, a fair plurality of vegetarians are hyper-sensitive to animals, but really nasty to humans. Probably slightly more than the general population.
I would have thought it to be the opposite (and it sometimes is).
I developed a theory that they are attempting to compensate for being assholes to humans by being overly kind to animals.
(That, or people are just crappy to people in food service, and I mainly had a sample of vegetarians.)[/quote]
Actually, the Godwin’s Law reference was merely my attempt to point out that conversations often indeed tend to funnel down to the topic of Hitlerâ?¦ regardless if facts (or fictions) pertain to the subject at hand. LOL
Your observation of irony of the animal sympathizers is an interesting one.
As a Christian, I find salience in something Christ said regarding how we treat each other. “That which you do the the least of these, you do to ME.”