Training to Maintain Muscle

Training Over 35 Lifter
1

I am 50 and I have a question - not sure if this is where I ask it.

I think I have enough muscle - is this possible? I am pretty muscular and have continued to lift and do high intensity cardio…I eat clean, log my food, but I am not getting anywhere I feel like I am spinning my wheels, my BF% is not going down. I am not sure how to change - get the fat off.

Should I stop lifting for a while and just do body weight exercises and cardio? Any ideas for me? I have read so much that I have information overload but do not possess the training knowledge to know exactly what to do here.

I would rather increase activity than reduce calories because I have devoted most of this year to metabolism repair from continued low cal dieting - I am finally at a calorie range where I feel good.

Oh, I am 5’2", athletic build - medium structure, hour glass, 50 years old, I think I am pretty active, I am currently 1400 - 1600 calories a day that is up from 700 - 1100.

2

I’d think about advanced techniques like carb and protein cycling. For me, bodyfat is all about the carbs. One freakin banana can make a difference. How’s your blood work? Lots of guys in our age range (56 here) are estrogen dominant and that also makes fat loss tough.

3

I think Maddie’s a lady - most guys don’t comment on their hourglass figure ;-). Come to think of it, she just might be estrogen dominant.

You may be a candidate for Alwyn Cosgrove’s Afterburn program. It’s generally for already fit people who need to take off those last few pounds.

Everything happydog48 said about carbs applies, too.

http://www.alwyncosgrove.com/Store1.html

4

I wouldn’t recommend stoping the weights. gee - imagine that here on a weight lifting/bodybuilding site. I wonder if you are getting enough cals to support all of your activity. Take a look at that and how much of each macro-nutrient you get on average per day. Personally, I’m just coming off of a 3 month stalled weight loss and don’t really know why. Sometimes our bodies just need to hang out at a certain level for a while.

5

Women over 50 tend to become more insulin-resistant, especially after menopause. I’m 54, and I now have to restrict my carbs like never before.

Diet is key, so don’t stop the weights. Besides, it’s good for your bones as well, so never stop lifting as heavy as you can. You do not have your weight listed on your profile, but I think you are not eating enough to sustain your activity level, that’s WAY too few calories for either a lifter or a runner. That’s why you’re not losing fat, and also why you may be developing some insulin resistance.

What’s your diet look like now, besides, “clean?”
You may want to post it, along with your workouts, so we can see where you may be going wrong. Just list what you eat in a typical 24 hour period on a training day.

6

Why would eliminating lifting help your BF% go down?

Heavy lifting is essential to preserve muscle while dieting.

In my observation, calorie restriction on the order of 700-1100 a day does long-lasting damage to the fat-burning metabolism. This same observation is borne out in some of the research literature. I’m sure it will take patience to undo the damage; keep at it.

I have a friend in the same boat, who dieted around 500-1000 cals for a month while running and working out every day, for quick fat loss. She’s had a vicious fat rebound and frankly, I don’t know how to tell her to fix it. Scott Abel had an article about metabolic damage on MWA, promising a Part II, but I haven’t seen it yet.

My inclination would be to go for a hypertrophy phase with increased calories, best possible post-workout nutrition, and every muscle-sparing fat-burning supplement possible to help out, especially boatloads of fish oil. If you gain more muscle than fat, your BF% can go down.

Or maybe something like CT’s Hypermetabolic Training which has 2 heavy/strength days and 2 lactate sessions.

Or you may want to ask Jen Heath on her thread on MWA; I believe she has coaching experience with this type of situation.

7

Thanks for all your responses!

Happydog - I should have definately put that I am a female - so sorry - thank you for responding!

skidmark - I am currently in the 6th week of Afterburn - at least I am doing something right :slight_smile: I am doing extra cardio too but nothing too strenous on the extra - I just don’t like to sit…

soldog - I am a bit afraid to up my calories any more because I am already having difficulty with my stats going down as I would like them to - but it is still in the back of my mind - I see that a lot and it seems to work for some but in the past it has not worked for me. Now, micronutrients are another thing because I don’t really watch those closely but I do watch them a bit losely???

YoMama - I will gladly post my workouts and food - this is what I came here for :slight_smile: I need help, from lurking I know that at this site you guys know your stuff

anderson - perhaps I didn’t say that right I was wondering since I am pretty muscular and I am having difficulty reaching my “size” goals that maybe a month of cardio might take me down a bit - I mean can you be too muscular?

Food:

Day 1:
M1 - 3/4 c oatmeal, 1C soy milk, 1 banana
M2 - 1/2 c soy nuts, 1/2 c pineapple
M3 - 2 cups spring greans, 1 oz chopped walnuts, 1.5 oz low fat feta, 1/2 c strawberries, slice whole wheat, 1/2 c blueberries on the side
M4 - 3 oz grilled chicken, 1 cup romaine, half a tomato
M5 - 4 oz grilled chicken breast, 2 cups steamed broccoli

Day 2:
M1 - Omelette with 3 egg whites, 4 cherry tomatoes, slice whole wheat toast, orange
M2 - cup dannon light and fit yogurt, 1 cup blueberries,
M3 - 4 oz baked tilapia, 2 cups steamed green beans,3 oz sweet potato
M4 - 4 celery stalks, 2 boiled egg whites
M5 - 4 oz grilled chicken breast, 2 cups romaine, 1 c spinach, 1/4 c sliced cucumber, 1 tbsp oil and vinegar home made salad dressing

I work out twice a day most days but only once a day on weekends,

Day 1 workout -
Workout 1 - in the morning fasted - 45 minutes kettlebell drills 2:1 alternating a balistic drill with a light drill

Workout 2 - before lunch:
4 sets of 12 in circuit fashion
Circuit 1:Jump squats, DB push press, Good mornings
Circuit 2: Lat pull down, static lunges, russian twist
then finish with Prone cobra one for 2 minute hold

Day 2 -
AM fasted
run/jog 4 miles

Lunch time:
Energy systems training HIIT 4 rounds of 1:2
Round 1: Kettlebell swings/run jog
Round 2: Kettlebell figure 8s/run jog
Round 3: Kettlebell sling shots/run jog
Round 4: Kettlebell snatches/run jog
Cool down with 5 minute walk

On my eating I do all my starchy carbs from breakfast to lunch, after lunch, no bread, root veggies, only meat/fish and fibrous veggies

Thank you - I am not quite sure how to track the micronutrients by percentage -

again, thank you for your responses

8

Maddie - What I meant was the percentages of Carbs, Fat & Protein that make up your total calorie intake. Getting at what some of the others have mentioned - Are you getting too many carbs? Are you getting enough protein for your body mass?

I also realize that it may be counter-intuitive to need more calories to lose weight/fat but, for women especially, the body will hold onto fat in times of perceived shortages. So you need to feed your body enough to support your daily activity and training schedule.

9

First of all, there is no such thing as too much muscle, even for a woman. I come from a long line of Russian farm people, and yeah, the women do the plowing, too. The only time this was a problem for me was in high school. I never had a single date because I was taller and bigger than the boys. But I got over myself in college, when I saw the varsity football players were just my size.

Anyway, your workouts look like a Crossfit or circuit-type training, which I am unfamiliar with. My workouts are just basic strength training. I’m doing a modified 5x5 right now like this: http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1206566

You may be doing too much volume with too light weights. Perhaps by doing split sessions or whole body sessions 3 times a week would be better. Lifting heavier will increase your strength, not your size. How often do you change up your training routine? You need to change exercises every month or to challenge your body, and avoid stagnation.

As for your diet? Well, you may just have to do some serious studying here, and get lots more info on how to plan your macros. You have too many starchy carbs, and not enough good fats and too little protein.

Get rid of all grains, yeah, even the oatmeal, just for now. Get rid of the vegetable oil, use olive oil for salads or coconut oil for cooking. NO BANANAS. Really. And here’s where you’re really gonna hate me. Get rid of the fruits. Yes, ALL the fruits. Try it for 3 weeks, and see what happens. These fruits are causing you to spike insulin and store fat. This is why so many women gain weight over 50, even by eating a “healthy” diet. You absolutely need to go through a trial and error period of eliminating the foods that will keep the fat on you. You need to give it a try for at least 3 weeks to see results.

Different things happen to women in mid-life, especially with overall metabolism and fat storage. You can’t eat the same way as you did even a few years ago. It’s time to clean up, yet again.

You are doing OK with you meal timing, but here is a rule of thumb,(for women our age, not for the guys!) so keep this in mind of how to eat every day:

Eat 1.0 to 1.5 grams of protein per pound of LEAN body mass
You need to estimate your body fat percentage, or get it measured, but don’t go nuts here, estimate honestly.

Keep carbs as low as possible, now. Get your carbs from leafy green veggies only. No fruit.

Healthy fats only. Yeah, you need to eat good fat to lose the bad bodyfat. Nuts and olive oil are good.

Gear calories to your weight and activity level.

Lots of good basic info here: ExRx.net : Home

Good luck.

10

[quote]Maddie wrote:

anderson - perhaps I didn’t say that right I was wondering since I am pretty muscular and I am having difficulty reaching my “size” goals that maybe a month of cardio might take me down a bit - I mean can you be too muscular? [/quote]

It might – but only IF your metabolism is high and your hormone environment is optimized to favor fat burning. Which it is not.

There are two aspects of being muscular: pure appearance and metabolic effect. I understand that you are satisfied with your amount of muscle for appearance sake. I am more with YoMamma that more muscle is better, but appearance preferences are a matter of personal taste.

But I would consider hypertrophy anyway for the purpose of rebuilding your metabolism.

My reasoning is that to rebuild your metabolism, you MUST eat more food. When you consume excess calories, they can either go to fat storage or to build muscle. Obviously muscle is preferable.

Also, I think that most women (and men, for that matter) way overestimate how much muscle they have under that layer of fat. :slight_smile: Including myself. So if we diet down to very lean, even carefully so as not to lose any muscle mass other than fullness from glycogen, we are surprised how scrawny we really are without all the fat.

Your subject line is “Training to maintain muscle,” but you don’t appear to be doing the heavy lifting parameters that are necessary to maintain muscle while dieting. When taking in fewer calories than you need, your body will want to break down some muscle protein for energy. It does not want to use just stored fat indefinitely.

And it certainly does not want to BUILD any muscle. You’ve got to give it a darn good reason to keep all your existing muscle around, and that means heavy lifting.

In any case, even in the unlikely event you were to build some muscle mass and not like the look, after rebuilding your metabolism, it would be easy to lose the new muscle.

But this is all fairly irrelevant to you since you need to rebuild your metabolism.

You are eating WAY too little food, you are doing WAY too much cardio, and you are not losing fat. That is the picture of a compromised metabolism. Yes, you can get SMALLER doing tons of cardio and eating very little – this is what anorexics do and it is very effective in the short term.

But in the long term, the body becomes determined to hold on to its remaining fat and store every excess calorie as fat.

So you’re in a calorie deficit, taking in fewer than you need. Initially your body will dip into stored fat to fuel your energy needs. But after you lose a certain amount of fat, the hormone leptin will fall, signaling to your brain that fat stores are low and should be preserved.

This in turn causes thyroid levels to fall, lowering thermogenesis and your overall metabolic rate. Cortisol rises. Your body begins breaking protein down for energy instead of fat.

If this continues, a number of hungry hormones, like grehlin, will skyrocket, urging you to binge. When you do overeat, your body will first store the excess calories preferentially as fat, until the fat stores exceed their previous level.

This is a very elegant preservation mechanism, and it is a good thing it exists. If it did not, we’d accidentally kill ourselves after a month of ill-conceived dieting trying to look good on the beach.

You need to rebuild your metabolism, get your hormone levels back into the optimal zone, and convince your body all is well and it’s OK to burn fat. In my opinion, to do this you MUST

  • eat more protein, every meal all day long
  • eat more calories
  • eat completely clean, that is foods that are high in the nutrients you need to support optimal hormone environment
  • eat lots more vegetables
  • take loads of fish oil
  • lift heavy weights. The circuits do not achieve the same thing as heavy lifting.
  • use Surge after lifting
  • STOP the fasted cardio
  • cut the number of workout sessions

Two sessions a day, most days, is WAY WAY WAY too much for the number of calories you are eating. To support that much training, like athletes might do, you really need to be in a calorie surplus situation. While dieting, you have to choose your activity level CAREFULLY according to your intake. Or vice versa.

For training, I recommend you carefully read Christian Thibaudeau’s article on Hypermetabolic Training on MWA. CT carefully explains every type of training you can do to lose fat, without overdoing it, and puts it together into 4 workouts per week. If more were better, he would have prescribed more!

Here’s the link:
http://www.musclewithattitude.com/article/bodybuilding/getting_hypermetabolic&cr=

11

First - I appreciate the time you took to help me - I am excited.

Soldog - thank you, how do you know which ratios to pick? there are so many??? 40/30/30, 40/40/20, and so on seems there are tons of ways to do your food, I was looking at the anabolic diet and the fat is really high but IMO some of the foods aren’t healthy foods to me. There is so much out there that it can be confusing on what to try!

Yo Mama - Oh my - no grains or fruit - as much as I hate to give that stuff up I am willing to do what it takes to get where I want so for three weeks I will get rid of the grains and fruit - I can figure the protein amounts for lean body mass - what about dairy?

Taking out my grains/starches and fruit will leave me trying to eat a LOT of food to reach my calorie goal range - is it OK to eat more protein than I need for calorie purposes or do I concentrate on fat as the higher calorie food?

The Afterburn program I am currently using changes every 4 weeks - I chose it to really shock my body - I had previously been alternating every 4 weeks by changing splits and/or lifting styles - a 4 day split for 4 weeks straight sets, a two day split using pyramids, 3 day split with a really slow tempo…etc

But I can’t seem to find the right way for my body or from your post it looks like it is almost all diet :frowning: When I am finished here I am going to go and check that site thank you.

Andersons - thank you for your response - and for taking the time - there is lots of information from everyone :slight_smile: broken down where I am not overloaded :slight_smile:

It IS much more complicated than calories in calories out – and I definately don’t want to be classified as annorexic – and I AM hungry most of the time but I am pretty disciplined - but I see why I feel like I am spinning my wheels, all my attempts have been in the wrong direction - even while trying to eat more. I am going to go read that article - so you have a recommendation for when to eat before cardio?

Generally the reason I do fasted cardio is because eating before it makes me extremely nauseaus - I am going to that article read -

I thank you again for your help -

12

[quote]Maddie wrote:
First - I appreciate the time you took to help me - I am excited.

Soldog - thank you, how do you know which ratios to pick? there are so many??? 40/30/30, 40/40/20, and so on seems there are tons of ways to do your food, I was looking at the anabolic diet and the fat is really high but IMO some of the foods aren’t healthy foods to me. There is so much out there that it can be confusing on what to try!

I thank you again for your help - [/quote]

Unfortunately the best answer I’ve come up with is “Trial and Error”. Everybody and their sister has a different idea. And everybody’s body reacts differently.

I would figure out how you are going to get your protein. That will come with some fats depending on the source of protein. Fill in with some more “good” fats and last look at good carb sources.

13

[quote]Maddie wrote:
I am willing to do what it takes to get where I want so for three weeks I will get rid of the grains and fruit - I can figure the protein amounts for lean body mass - what about dairy?
[/quote]

I love my yogurt and raw milk, but I would keep dairy to a minimum, only when losing fat. Low fat cottage cheese and yogurt maybe once a day, I guess. Works for me.

Olive oil, nuts and peanut butter are calorie dense, and contain the good fats. I would eat more lean protein.

For body composition, diet is key. I am not familiar with circuit training, so I searched through some old articles. I see you are following Alwyn Cosgrove’s program. Afterburn is a high intensity interval program, focused on fat burning. If you follow it exactly, to the letter of his law, you will be successful. As far as the workouts, he recommends you do the complexes 4 times a week, and the HIIT cardio should be done after the weights, working up to the final week of 25 minutes per session.

So you are doing too much volume. Perhaps, more is not better. Nowhere does he mention doing fasted intervals. Search for the article “Complexes for weight Loss” here on this site. Perhaps Afterburn II training has been modified, I don’t know. There are also many threads here that discuss this program specifically. Type in “Alwyn Cosgrove and Afterburn” in the search window, and you’ll see how many pages of posts there are…tons of reading to do!!

14

[quote]Maddie wrote:
soldog - I am a bit afraid to up my calories any more because I am already having difficulty with my stats going down as I would like them to - but it is still in the back of my mind - I see that a lot and it seems to work for some but in the past it has not worked for me. Now, micronutrients are another thing because I don’t really watch those closely but I do watch them a bit losely???
[/quote]
Maddie, Try www.fitday.com to monitor your macros. It helped me a ton to get my diet in check. Alot of us guess on what our macros are, thinking we are eating well. In fact once we really look close at it we are way off base from what we think. I found that site to be really easy and helpful… Good luck.

15

[quote]Maddie wrote:

Andersons - thank you for your response - and for taking the time - there is lots of information from everyone :slight_smile: broken down where I am not overloaded :slight_smile: It IS much more complicated than calories in calories out – and I definately don’t want to be classified as annorexic – and I AM hungry most of the time but I am pretty disciplined - but I see why I feel like I am spinning my wheels, all my attempts have been in the wrong direction - even while trying to eat more. I am going to go read that article - so you have a recommendation for when to eat before cardio? Generally the reason I do fasted cardio is because eating before it makes me extremely nauseaus - I am going to that article read -

I thank you again for your help - [/quote]

Just to be clear, of course you are NOT anorexic. But too long a period of eating 700 calories and doing lots of cardio can do similar damage to your fat-burning metabolism. You now realize you need to eat more, which is good! But you may have to be patient and give your body more time to recover from the restricted calories before it’s going to be willing to burn more fat. Some changes in food choices and timing may help that along.

If you are hungry all the time and are pretty disciplined, that sounds to me like you could benefit from a refeed. Especially if the hunger has been increasing in intensity. It is surprising and counter-intuitive, but I have repeatedly jump-started fat loss after a strategic refeed eating as much as 3X my normal dieting calories.

I am not super-familiar with Afterburn, but a couple things about following programs. Don’t change them; whatever you do, don’t add more volume of work or consume fewer calories than recommended. If the program would work better for MOST people with those changes, the author would have recommended them. Second, no program works for everyone, indefinitely. Even well-designed fat loss programs don’t always work as well for people who have already been dieting. There is a big difference in response between a person who has been severely restricting calories for some time, versus someone who has been eating ad lib (at will).

Calories in, calories out is simple, and it is correct. HOWEVER, the black box in the middle constantly changes the calories out. You can control calories in, and you can control a small portion of calories out through exercise, but your body can change your basic metabolic rate.

Also, even if you do everything right, there WILL be periods where you feel like you’re spinning your wheels because fat loss is not linear. Especially as BF gets lower, there will be periods where you don’t lose fat for awhile.

I eat before cardio, but your cardio is probably much more intense than mine. I use easily-digested meals, like shakes with Metabolic Drive and fruit, or my typical mocha Metabolic Drive with eggs, coconut milk, instant coffee, and cocoa. :slight_smile: I’ve also eaten some cottage cheese. Start with a small amount of food, and you’ll probably adapt. You can also try waiting about an hour or so after eating before cardio.

You are very dedicated and disciplined! With a little more knowledge, patience, and self-experimentation, you’ll get there.

16

soldog - thanks! There is so much to this - but i am not going to make it harder than it is - protein first, fats and then carbs - …

Yo Momma - Hate to keep bothering you but what is “raw” milk? On Afterburn - I increased the cardio to get “more” I see after reading my threads that I should not do that - it did not seem like enough cardio to me - I am no expert but I love "Bottom kicking cardio) - it just feels so good especially when you are done! There IS tons of reading on the program and Cosgrove too - I had no idea!

ntmaniac - Thanks for the referral to fitday - checked it out, signed up for an account :slight_smile:

Andersons - Thanks for all the info!!! I have seen references to refeed but not sure exactly what it is - do you just eat clean or like you normally just a log or do really treat yourself? And actually I am up now because I am hungry…

Thanks for the “program” info - I am bad about adding a little something especially extra cardio…

On the eating before cardio - thanks for the info I will try it - but I think an hour before - thank you - I am like most, I want it now but I will try to develop some patience.

Thank you all so much again

17

Raw milk is not pasteurized or homogenized, so all the nutrients and healthy probiotics are still active. This means that people who are lactose intolerant can drink it with no ill effects. Plus, the taste is so much better than processed milk. Of course, it is very calorie dense, there is no such thing as low fat or skim raw milk.

Here’s more info, and links to where you can get raw dairy worldwide: