Too Low in Training Volume to Grow?

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
FenixRise wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
you need to get serious with the lower body stuff, you look like your legs are very twiggy.

I DO need very serious work in my lower body, but my legs are not twiggy =D

they looked much smaller in the top picture.

with that picture added, you look more balenced.[/quote]

thanks man, I put a lot of effort in my leg training, i know its not much for most of the guys here at t nation but i can squat with proper form 245lbs (7 reps), do you know a routine for calves, or something you could suggest?

Volume seems ok, you should emphasize your arms more.

[quote]MEYMZ wrote:
Volume seems ok, you should emphasize your arms more.[/quote]

Like adding extra sets or extra exercises?? or what do you mean…?

I’m not sure what your definition of “very heavy” is, but in my book, you can’t go “very heavy” for 7 reps. If you can, that’s more of a moderate weight, I think.

If I’m training for max strength, I probably won’t be able to go beyond 3 reps.

Also, IMHO, you can’t train heavy 6 days a week and actually give it your all(if you think you train heavy for all 6 days).

I would make a note to read some of Dave Tate’s stuff on here. He knows how to move big weight and let’s face it, if you can move a lot of weight, generally, you’re gunna look like it.

[quote]tw0scoops2 wrote:
I’m not sure what your definition of “very heavy” is, but in my book, you can’t go “very heavy” for 7 reps. If you can, that’s more of a moderate weight, I think.

If I’m training for max strength, I probably won’t be able to go beyond 3 reps.

Also, IMHO, you can’t train heavy 6 days a week and actually give it your all(if you think you train heavy for all 6 days).

I would make a note to read some of Dave Tate’s stuff on here. He knows how to move big weight and let’s face it, if you can move a lot of weight, generally, you’re gunna look like it.[/quote]

I cant train heavy 6 days a week, that’s why I don’t, i go 3, I said I used to go 6 days, now I go 3

[quote]FenixRise wrote:
MEYMZ wrote:
Volume seems ok, you should emphasize your arms more.

Like adding extra sets or extra exercises?? or what do you mean…? [/quote]

Not everything is sets, reps, exercises. You haven’t mentioned anything like form, muscle contraction; the main goal in bodybuilding is congesting the muscle to promote muscle growth.

[quote]FenixRise wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
FenixRise wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
you need to get serious with the lower body stuff, you look like your legs are very twiggy.

I DO need very serious work in my lower body, but my legs are not twiggy =D

they looked much smaller in the top picture.

with that picture added, you look more balenced.

thanks man, I put a lot of effort in my leg training, i know its not much for most of the guys here at t nation but i can squat with proper form 245lbs (7 reps), do you know a routine for calves, or something you could suggest?[/quote]

walk/run on a high incline treadmill. I naturally have big calves so I never had to worry about it. My calves were literally about the size of my thigh when I started lifting.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
FenixRise wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
FenixRise wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
you need to get serious with the lower body stuff, you look like your legs are very twiggy.

I DO need very serious work in my lower body, but my legs are not twiggy =D

they looked much smaller in the top picture.

with that picture added, you look more balenced.

thanks man, I put a lot of effort in my leg training, i know its not much for most of the guys here at t nation but i can squat with proper form 245lbs (7 reps), do you know a routine for calves, or something you could suggest?

walk/run on a high incline treadmill. I naturally have big calves so I never had to worry about it. My calves were literally about the size of my thigh when I started lifting.
[/quote]

Most of us aren’t that lucky, I had to bust my tail to get the regular size calves, so walking or running on an incline treadmill, for how long?? like a regular cardio, 20 to 30 min??

Im changing to this routine, I dont know if i should make an other thread about this one, so I ll just put it here, see what you guys think, i added a few more sets,and an extra day, (I didn’t made it up,

Just changed the order so i could have back, and shoulders on the same day, I got it from a Kelly Baggett article),

The thing its i tend to get over trained, since my recovery sucks, and I have been getting mixed opinions towards the overall number of sets (volume)…well here it is, thanks for all the opinions from everyone, they have all been very useful, here is the routine:

( I didnt make it up, just modified it so i has pulling and pushing combined) i got it from an article by Kelly baggett:

Mon: Lower (Quadricep focused)
Squat: 4-5 x 6-8 with full rests
SLDL: 3 x 6-8 with full rests
Leg press: 2 x 15-20 with full rests
Leg curl: 3 x 5-8 with short rests
Calf raise: 4 x 5 (5 seconds down, 5 seconds pause at bottom)

Tue: Upper (Chest, biceps and triceps)
Flat bench: 4-5 x 6-8 with full rests
Dumbell incline press 3-4 x 6-8 with full rests
wheiged wide grip dips- 2 x 12-15
barbell curls 3 x 6-10
seated dumbell curls 3 x 6-10
overhead extensions 3 x 6-10
cable pushdowns 3x 6-10

Thurs: Lower (glute/ham focused)
Deadlift- 4-5 x 6
Front Squat- 3 x 8
leg curl - 3-5 x 6-12 with short rests
leg ext- 3 x 15
Calf raise - 3 x 10-10-10 (triple drop)

Friday or Saturday: Upper (Shoulder and Back)
Military Press 3 5 - 7
Standing Dumbbell Side Laterals 3 10 - 12
One arm DB Row- 4 x 12-15
Deadlifts 4 5 - 8
Bent Over Barbell Rows 4 5 - 8
Overhand Chin-Ups 4 6 - 10

[quote]FenixRise wrote:
Im changing to this routine, I dont know if i should make an other thread about this one, so I ll just put it here, see what you guys think, i added a few more sets,and an extra day, (I didn’t made it up,

Just changed the order so i could have back, and shoulders on the same day, I got it from a Kelly Baggett article),

The thing its i tend to get over trained, since my recovery sucks, and I have been getting mixed opinions towards the overall number of sets (volume)…well here it is, thanks for all the opinions from everyone, they have all been very useful, here is the routine:

( I didnt make it up, just modified it so i has pulling and pushing combined) i got it from an article by Kelly baggett:

Mon: Lower (Quadricep focused)
Squat: 4-5 x 6-8 with full rests
SLDL: 3 x 6-8 with full rests
Leg press: 2 x 15-20 with full rests
Calf raise: 4 x 5 (5 seconds down, 5 seconds pause at bottom)

Tue: Upper (Chest, biceps and triceps)
Flat bench: 4-5 x 6-8 with full rests
Dumbell incline press 3-4 x 6-8 with full rests
wheiged wide grip dips- 2 x 12-15
barbell curls 3 x 6-10
seated dumbell curls 3 x 6-10
overhead extensions 3 x 6-10
cable pushdowns 3x 6-10

Thurs: Lower (glute/ham focused)
Deadlift- 4-5 x 6
Front Squat- 3 x 8
leg curl - 3-5 x 6-12 with short rests
Calf raise - 3 x 10-10-10 (triple drop)

Friday or Saturday: Upper (Shoulder and Back)
Military Press 3 5 - 7
Standing Dumbbell Side Laterals 3 10 - 12
One arm DB Row- 3 x 12-15
Bent Over Barbell Rows 3 5 - 8
supinated grip pull-Ups 3 6 - 10
[/quote]

Cleaned it up a bit (you had deadlifts on back to back days and some other things that needed changing).

Do it hard. Keep a log and try to do more total weight and/or reps for each exercise each time you come back around to it (so, if you bench 200 for 8 reps, try to do 205 for fewer than 8 reps or 200 for 9 reps next time). Throw in some cardio and play with your carb intake (lower on non-workout days) to play with your bodyfat. Eat a lot of protein (and have a caloric excess, just change macros). Do this for 4-6 months HARD and report back.

YOU ARE GETTING PARALYSIS BY ANALYSIS- THIS IS A GOOD PROGRAM BUT WILL ONLY WORK IF YOU GO ALL OUT. DO IT.

[quote]FenixRise wrote:

The thing its i tend to get over trained, since my recovery sucks, and I have been getting mixed opinions towards the overall number of sets (volume)…well here it is, thanks for all the opinions from everyone, they have all been very useful, here is the routine:

[/quote]

Overtraining… you could’ve just said that you adjusted your routine because the volume was too high for your recovery. And instead you increased your workload; it’s contradictory saying that your recovery sucks.

[quote]trextacy wrote:
FenixRise wrote:
Im changing to this routine, I dont know if i should make an other thread about this one, so I ll just put it here, see what you guys think, i added a few more sets,and an extra day, (I didn’t made it up,

Just changed the order so i could have back, and shoulders on the same day, I got it from a Kelly Baggett article),

The thing its i tend to get over trained, since my recovery sucks, and I have been getting mixed opinions towards the overall number of sets (volume)…well here it is, thanks for all the opinions from everyone, they have all been very useful, here is the routine:

( I didnt make it up, just modified it so i has pulling and pushing combined) i got it from an article by Kelly baggett:

Mon: Lower (Quadricep focused)
Squat: 4-5 x 6-8 with full rests
SLDL: 3 x 6-8 with full rests
Leg press: 2 x 15-20 with full rests
Calf raise: 4 x 5 (5 seconds down, 5 seconds pause at bottom)

Tue: Upper (Chest, biceps and triceps)
Flat bench: 4-5 x 6-8 with full rests
Dumbell incline press 3-4 x 6-8 with full rests
wheiged wide grip dips- 2 x 12-15
barbell curls 3 x 6-10
seated dumbell curls 3 x 6-10
overhead extensions 3 x 6-10
cable pushdowns 3x 6-10

Thurs: Lower (glute/ham focused)
Deadlift- 4-5 x 6
Front Squat- 3 x 8
leg curl - 3-5 x 6-12 with short rests
Calf raise - 3 x 10-10-10 (triple drop)

Friday or Saturday: Upper (Shoulder and Back)
Military Press 3 5 - 7
Standing Dumbbell Side Laterals 3 10 - 12
One arm DB Row- 3 x 12-15
Bent Over Barbell Rows 3 5 - 8
supinated grip pull-Ups 3 6 - 10

Cleaned it up a bit (you had deadlifts on back to back days and some other things that needed changing).

Do it hard. Keep a log and try to do more total weight and/or reps for each exercise each time you come back around to it (so, if you bench 200 for 8 reps, try to do 205 for fewer than 8 reps or 200 for 9 reps next time).

Throw in some cardio and play with your carb intake (lower on non-workout days) to play with your bodyfat. Eat a lot of protein (and have a caloric excess, just change macros). Do this for 4-6 months HARD and report back.

YOU ARE GETTING PARALYSIS BY ANALYSIS- THIS IS A GOOD PROGRAM BUT WILL ONLY WORK IF YOU GO ALL OUT. DO IT.[/quote]

thanks for all the help man, and i will, but how do i compensate the carbs on non lifting days, with protein, or just change the overall carbs to be consumed before 6 or 7 pm??, and about the cardio… exactly what do you recommend?? i mean frequency, pace etc

(also someone told me I could do just 15-20 min first thing in the morning on empty stomach on non lifting days)… haha sorry for being such a noob… but no one starts as an expert…just remember when you where starting, im just trying to find my way trough this, I will go all out on this, and of course report back afterward… thnks for everything

  • Fenix

[quote]FenixRise wrote:

thanks for all the help man, and i will, but how do i compensate the carbs on non lifting days, with protein, or just change the overall carbs to be consumed before 6 or 7 pm??, and about the cardio… exactly what do you recommend?? i mean frequency, pace etc

(also someone told me I could do just 15-20 min first thing in the morning on empty stomach on non lifting days)… haha sorry for being such a noob… but no one starts as an expert…just remember when you where starting, im just trying to find my way trough this, I will go all out on this, and of course report back afterward… thnks for everything

  • Fenix[/quote]

You may respond well to carbs-- just judging from the pics though, you may not (i.e., you probably need them to gain and to manage them better to lean out).

Make sure all your carbs are low glycemic (except after weight workouts, when something like Surge is fine, but if fat loss is the goal, you could just use whey). Whey + oats or whey + fruit is not a bad option either. So, tons of veggies, spinach, etc. and very little bread (and if you eat bread get Ezekiel bread or low carb wraps).

I think a cheat meal or day is fine, but if your goal is to lean out, 14 days of being “hardcore” (so, no cheats) is a good way to do it. Personally, I don’t think a hardcore fat loss/caloric deficit approach is good for you right now. You aren’t fat, you have some muscle, so I think you can grow “intelligently” for a while and stay around the same AMOUNT of bodyfat (which means, if you gain muscle, your BF% goes down…visually, this is a good thing).

Don’t drink any of your calories except for the protein shakes. Try to get most of your protein from meat but if you need the shakes, that’s fine. Drink water, coffee is fine, and green tea. Lay off the “diet” drinks- I know they have no calories but I don’t think the chemicals are good for you and some people think artificial sweeteners can still mess with your insulin. So, coffee in the morning, some green tea in the afternoon, water the rest of the time.

Always get around 1.5 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass per day. That shouldn’t vary. On non-lifting days you can cut off carbs around 4pm (so your dinner would be salad and meat). I would say the only difference on lifting days would be that you could eat some fruit before you workout and your breakfast could be oats with some blueberries (not packaged oatmeal, the real stuff) and eggs. Your breakfast on a non-workout day would be bacon and eggs, steak and eggs, etc.

I think a morning walk of 40-60 minutes on an empty stomach (esp. if your goal is to drop fat) is great. You will really see a benefit to this when you implement the carb cutoff the night before. You will be using fat for fuel during the walk. 15-20 minutes won’t do much though. If you do it outstide, great. If you do it on a treadmill, use the incline, but it’s non-panting cardio.

Basically, if you walk in the morning 4-5 days per week, lift 4 days per week (you can do a morning walk and lift later, no problem) and do HIIT 1-2 times per week (30 secs high, 60 secs low, for 12 bursts, with warm-up it comes out to about 20 minutes) you will be MORE than set. Since you are new, I think packing in the activity and pushing your body is a good thing.

See where your limits are. If you aren’t gaining muscle, I’d rather see you up the calories than take out some activity. OTOH, there are plenty of big strong lean dudes that do zero cardio. Again, see how you respond, but I tend to think that bumping calories by 300 is better than taking out a cardio session where 300 calories are burned.

Finally, get plenty of rest.

One more thing- keep a log of your food intake for the next week and see where you stand macro wise and total calorie wise. Use fitday or something. This could be a real eye opener. You could be way undereating or eating like shit and just not realize how the numbers shake out.

So, do that if you are serious. It could be that an extra chicken breast or 2 more eggs in the morning could be all you need to add to grow. Or, you could figure out that you are eating 300 calories of pure shit sugar per day, and just replace it with green tea and a whey shake. Who knows.

This will make you leaner and stronger over the next 6 months if you stick with it. Play with the exercise selections as needed-- give your lower back a break if you need it (I’m a little concerned that you have SLDL and deadlifts every week)-- increase/decrease the calories as needed, etc.

This is about figuring out what works for you, and no amount of searching around the internet is going to tell you what works best for you. You could do a LOT worse than your 4 day upper/lower, a solid diet, some cardio and plenty of rest though.

If you want to tweak your program, remember that the goal is to get stronger on exercises within the 6-12 rep range. So, if you are having a hard time getting stronger, take out an exercise that is duplicative and focus on getting stronger on the remaining ones.

A variety of exercises is good, but imho if you are doing 3 chest exercises in one session and not progressing, take out one of the exercises and force yourself to progress one the 2 that are left–this usually works because people tend to get laser focused on giving those exercises an intense effort if they have fewer.

When I was a newb and knew I had 5 chest exercises on “chest day” I didn’t progress at all…cut it to dumbell press and incline barbell bench and numbers started going up much quicker.

Sorry for rambling.