Tongkat Ali While on HRT?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Over 35 Lifter
1

Tongkat Ali is said to increase testosterone levels and libido.

It would seem that this supplement would be a waste of money for HRT guys.

On the otherhand, these Rat Studies appear to indicated that Rats on TRT benefited from it:

Effects of Eurycoma longifolia Jack (Tongkat Ali) on the initiation of sexual performance of inexperienced castrated male rats.

Effects of Eurycoma longifolia jack on laevator ani muscle in both uncastrated and testosterone-stimulated castrated intact male rats.

Could be I am totally misreading these studies . . . I don’t really have a scientific brain.

Have any T-Nation human subjects on HRT tried Tongkat Ali?

2

Oh well then. . .

I guess I volunteer to try it out. Will order some monday. Will report back here after a few weeks.

I am curious about it because several people have told me about huge libido spikes that sound awfully close to what we HRT guys get when first starting HRT.

My libido is really good now, but I loved that feeling and it would be interesting to experience again.

3

I’m not familiar with this product. Where are you getting it from? Let us know the results.

4

The levels they administered were pretty shocking if you scale them up for humans. 800 mg/kg for a man would be something like 60 grams a day. That’s like 2 ounces a day at a cost of somewhere around $60/day.

The testosterone would work out to about a gram a day!

I don’t see any harm in playing around with the stuff, but I wouldn’t expect much.

5

[quote]e-loo wrote:
Oh well then. . .

I guess I volunteer to try it out. Will order some monday. Will report back here after a few weeks.

I am curious about it because several people have told me about huge libido spikes that sound awfully close to what we HRT guys get when first starting HRT.

My libido is really good now, but I loved that feeling and it would be interesting to experience again.[/quote]

It’s wild that you posted this. My wife’s hairdresser was asking her just Saturday if I had ever heard of this stuff. I had no clue what he was talking about.

seems there is a lot of interest in this compound with out all the trappings that make it a sex-type drug.

Definitely worth looking into.

7

I did receive my order and took my first dosage (1600mg) on Friday Feb 23.

They recommend cycling it 5 days on, 3 days off.

I woke up about 3am really wanting sex. Not just typical woken up by night erection, lets go back to sleep now. But actively wanting it.

That is a little unusual for me – I generally just want to SLEEP at 3am.

Probably just placebo effect.

But I will keep you posted.

For what it is worth, some sites says it works by “increasing testosterone.”

The site I ordered from says it works by “increasing Free Testosterone.”

Spike9726 – you can get it at just about any health food store. In the men’s health section.

8

[quote]Chushin wrote:
I believe this is (or was) in some of Biotest’s products. [/quote]

Digging around in the Biotest store, I see that ALHPA MALE contains Eurycoma longifolia. . . .so there you have it!

http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1054351

This is what Biotest says about the Eurycoma longifolia contained in Alpha Male – which is very interesting, to me at least:

–

10

OK, I finished my “5 days on” part of the cycle.

I was taking 1600mg a day (2 capsules) of Tongkat Ali Extract 1:50. The tongkat ali was imported by the mahufacturer from Sumatra Pasak Bumi, Indonesia.

Let’s assume that my normal libido is “100”

Let’s assume that the initial TRT libido blast is “200”

I would put this in about the 120 to 140 range. It is like “TRT libido blast LITE”

I don’t want to be too explicit, but here are the things I noticed.

– I was more aware of myself as a sexual being. I also think I gave off more of a ‘vibe’

– I felt more aggressive, primal, and basic, – you know, the hunter . . . . and had to consciously censor myself, remembering to put things in more “woman friendly” language

– amusingly, my standards lowered in terms of women I was willing to “check out” when out and about around town.

– seemed like I was always ready for action.

– more aggressive in my gym workouts

Last night it was as if I were being tortured with night wood. It would wake me up, I would get it to subside, I would go back to sleep. And almost immediately the cycle would begin again.

So that’s my report. I will do another cycle in three or four days. I had considered upping the dosage to three capsules, but some claim that the effect is cumulative so I will stick with the 2 capsules a day.

I don’t think this was all “placebo effect.” However, your mileage may vary.

12

Chushin –

It isn’t really clear how much is in Alpha Male - See this chart of Alpha Male ingredients:

395×719 87.5 KB

You can see that they report Eurycoma longifolia in combination with Vitex agnus castus – saying that together there is 170mg per pill. Dosage is 2 pills a day.

Of course Alpha Male has a number of other “test boosting” ingredients.

The tongkat ali I have recommends this for men:

5 days on 3 off or 14 days on 5 days off
Bodybuilders: one month on, 2 weeks off

tongkat ali 1:50 extract
Standard dosage – 800 to 1600mg a day
Weight loss – 1600 to 2000mg a day
Bodybuilding – 2000 to 5000mg a day

Dosages for women are half that for men.

I have to say that I still feel a little “tuned up” by it. Which is interesting, because today is injection day, and I usually feel a little “flat” on injection day.

14

Just updating.

After 3 days off, I started another 5 day cycle.

This time I felt NOTHING! Just my regular self.

I mentioned this to the guy who recommended it; he said that he had the same results. (He has functioning testicles).

We decided that maybe we need longer time off than 3 days.

So I have not done a cycle since. I plan to do one later in the month. Will update when I do.

15

I did another cycle last week, to finish off the bottle, not expecting anything to happen.

Big kick in the pants. Quite effective this time.

I am going to try a new brand the last week of May. Will report back.

16

[quote]e-loo wrote:
Chushin wrote:
I believe this is (or was) in some of Biotest’s products.

Digging around in the Biotest store, I see that ALHPA MALE contains Eurycoma longifolia. . . .so there you have it!

http://www.T-Nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1054351

This is what Biotest says about the Eurycoma longifolia contained in Alpha Male – which is very interesting, to me at least:

Eurycoma imparts its effects by selectively controlling the conversion of DHEA and other naturally occurring androgens into Testosterone. In fact, it even works when the testes are non-responsive to Luteinizing hormone. As long as the substrate hormones are present (and they’re present in everyone), Eurycoma works.

–[/quote]

If this is true, then one should take a large[r] amount of DHEA prior to the start. Otherwise, perhaps ones DHEA gets depleted and the effect is then self limiting. Wild ass guess!

17

[quote]e-loo wrote:
I did another cycle last week, to finish off the bottle, not expecting anything to happen.

Big kick in the pants. Quite effective this time.

I am going to try a new brand the last week of May. Will report back.

[/quote]

How long had you been off before this cycle?

When you start, the action is same day, next day…?

18

[quote]KSman wrote:
How long had you been off before this cycle?

When you start, the action is same day, next day…?[/quote]

About a month and a half.

The two times I have felt the effects, it was about two or three days into the cycle. The effects lasted a couple days after the cycle.

On another forum I frequent, a bodybuilding/HRT guy said that it works by lowering SGBH, thereby raising free test. He takes 900-1500mg a day to supplement his HRT dosage. I could not find out if he cycled or not.

He cited the book “Building the Perfect Beast” by Author L Rea, R.S. as where he first learned about Tongkat Ali.

I tracked the book down on the net and tongkat ali is dealt with in a section called SHBG Control: How To Elevate Free Testosterone Levels … Naturally!

For what it is worth here’s the quote:

[quote]Eurycoma Longifolia lack: AKA Long Jack

Tongkat Ali (Eurycoma longifolia jack) is a small tree found in the jungles
throughout Malaysia and Southeat Asia. It is commonly known as Tongkat Ali in Malaysia and Singapore, Piak or Tung Saw in Thailand, and Pasak Bumi in Indonesia.

The tree can grow up to about 12 meters in height. Natives consider every part of the tree as medicine. Tongkat AM is used as a tonic, to treat malaria, and as an aphrodisiac.

There have been quite a few studies with this plant. The effects of eurycoma
were studied on the libido of sexually inexperienced male rats after dosing them with 200, 400 and 800 mg/kg body weight twice daily for 10 days.

Results showed that eurycoma produced a dose-dependent increase in mounting frequency of the treated animals. Further studies also showed that eurycoma promoted the growth of both ventral prostate and seminal vesicles. (Human studies showed the response at much lower dosages).

Use Them At The End

Human studies have shown a fairly rapid decrease in SHBG and an increase in both total and free testosterone during relatively short-term use of this product. My personal experience has been that post-cycle SHBG elevation is quickly brought into a more effectual range. Naturally an interesting side effect is the fairly common increase in libido and erectile function. (Ya, got to love that one)

By beginning use of these products during the last active week of any AAS
phase, Frank and other beasts realized that an increase in free testosterone was available to maintain post-cycle results and over ride cortisol and SHBG. 21-30 days use usually was enough to make a notable difference. And to be honest, it was just plain healthy.[/quote]

19

I came across this at the gym today – I may try this dosage recommendation after I get my labs drawn. Any typos are mine.

Muscle and Fitness June 2008, pp 217 -225.
Testosterone’s Little Helpers by Jordana Brown and Jim Spoppani, PhD,

P. 220

[quote]Strategy #2 Increase Free Testosterone

Eurycoma Longfolia Jack

One of the greediet binders of testosterone is a protein called sex hormone binding globulin (SHGB). We can’t really fault SHGB, though - it is just doing its job, which is to transport T around the body. But if we could just reduce the amount of SHGB in the body, there’d be less to run off with all the testosterone. Funnily enough, the men of Malasia have a traditional remedy for boosting sexual prowess. It’s an herb that goes by exotic names (Eurycoma Longfolia Jack or Tongkat Ali), and when scientists studied it, they found that it could actually increase virility fo reducing SHGB, thereby increasing free testosterone.

In the first American study involving eurycoma, conducted in 2006, researchers gave subjects either the herb or a placebo and then had them perform intense exercise. Those who took Eurycoma had testosterone levels that were 16% higher than the members of the placebo group. Incidently, the eurycoma group also experienced a significant drop in cortisol levels, which is also linked to higher test levels. But more on that later

Test Tip: Take 100-300mg of eurycoma in the morning, 30 to 60 minutes before workouts and before bed. Cycle eurycoma for eight weeks, then take 2 to 4 weeks off before repeating.[/quote]