No problem, it’s easily misunderstood, as in fact I thought that I had!
So maybe “equal comparison” or “same total amount” doesn’t really work?
It seems fairly generally accepted that, for a beginner cycle, 500mg/wk x 8wks is an adequate dose - at least with regards to a simple test only cycle. What would be the, shall we say, “equivalent” beginner dose with reference to 2-on/2-off?
Thanks.
I disagree with the premise.
I don’t recommend limiting to 500 mg/week for beginners. I have only ever done a cycle that way for anyone if they insisted on it.
The only reason that that ever had any basis to it was that if one limited oneself to testosterone, which there was never any reason to do, back before good aromatase inhibition some would start having more estrogenic effect than desired if going substantially past that approximate amount. While a SERM could protect against gyno, still some found more than that more than they liked.
I solved that by not limiting cycle planning to testosterone.
Nowadays with letrozole and to (as personal opinion) a less-preferred extent with Arimidex, that is not a factor and anyone can use 700-750 mg/week and like it. Really nothing wrong with a gram per week either, and of course testosterone-only is not the only possible method.
I didn’t state that equal time “on” with equal dosage but timed differently (with intervening “off” weeks rather than straight throught and then followed by same number of “off” weeks) would in fact give less results. I doubt it: the evidence is pretty good for total dosage being the best predictor.
What I said was I didn’t have specific evidence in the case of a measly 500 mg/week and two-week cycles.
There’s just no reason to dip the toe in the water so lightly as that. Well unless the reason is not particularly good cycle planning and 500 mg/week usually – but not always – being tolerable even if done the simplest way possible (all testosterone and no estrogen control of any kind) versus that not as often being so for substantially higher doses.
See how easy it is to misunderstand?!
Firstly, “the premise” is not mine and I was not assuming that you were recommending limiting beginners to 500mg/wk. It just seems that a first cycle of test only @ 500mg/wk appears to be very commonly recommended “beginners” cycle on this forum so I used that as an example. Certainly very few people here advise or recommend that steroid novices jump straight into 1g+/wk cycles.
Apologies for not being more specific on use of anti-e’s; I merely limited my detailing to that of the steroid dose. My assumption was that, these days, most people utilised them.
So, just as I thought I’d understood it, it seems I really am unclear now on what exactly you did mean by:
“On amount of steroids used: Yes, four 2 week cycles, if the only differing factor were how one scheduled the cycles, would use the same total amount of steroid as one 8 week cycle.”
However, it might be best if I just moved on from that?
Getting back to 2-on/2-off cycles, what has experience shown to be reasonable beginner doses?
Thanks.
The statement is what I meant: for equal comparisons, where we really are considering only the difference between using one plan and another, the total amount of steroid used needs to be the same. And also that there’s no reason for the weekly dosages to be different, other than some dosages being ruled out for short cycles and long acting drugs because of remaining in the system too long.
So if for example one were bound and determined to do a 100 mg/week cycle for 8 weeks, then the appropriate and fair comparison is to 2-week cycles also using that lame dosage each “on” week.
The fact that that is the fair comparison does not mean that that is a good cycle.
A reasonable beginner dose for a 2 week cycle is 50 mg/day trenbolone acetate and 50 mg/day Dianabol, for example, if using those drugs.
If for some reason limited to testosterone propionate, then 100-150 mg/day, with appropriate amount of letrozole (a guessed general value is about 1 mg/day at those T doses but individuals may vary.)
Getting back to the comparison: if someone wants to compare this to a straight 8 week cycle, then they should compare the end result of four of these cycles to an 8-week cycle at that same total dosage, which would mean also at 100-150 mg/day. If it were compared to a differing total amount of comparisons then it wouldn’t be a valid comparison: there would be another variable changing.
OK Bill, thanks for taking the time to respond to my questions, and apologies that it’s taken a few replies for me to “get it”!
Actually it seems that I had grasped the bit about equal comparisons a couple of posts back when I equated 4x1g/2wks-on with the 500mg/wk x 8wks but maybe didnt give due consideration to your clarifications that " . . the method really is intended for higher doses than that."
Further to your comments regarding beginner cycles, and in light of the examples given in your post above, I now understand your opinion regarding the dosage levels I used by way of comparisons!
Thanks again.
Glad it was of help!
Bill, I am very happy with what I’ve gotten from 2 on 2 off so far.
I want to try this with an oral combination. I understand you prefer a class I/class II combo, so I was thinking of dbol or drol with winny or halo. I would run HCG to keep estro in normal range. Any other combos that you think would be appropriate here? How would you classify tbol?
That would still be all Class II, unless Halotestin (which I have not done stacking experiments with) is Class I or mixed.
If dead set on this, I’d go with Dianabol/oxandrolone (which depending on the individual may require estrogen control), or Anadrol/oxandrolone with HCG.
I haven’t done a stacking experiment with Oral Turinabol either. Back when I was doing all that, that was an exotic that really no one was using. Now it’s pretty common of course so it would be worth knowing. I did use trenbolone/OT/HCG for one cycle and had the opinion it was probably mixed activity, but would have had to also do a OT/Dianabol or OT/Anadrol cycle to come to any definite conclusion, and I did not.
Certainly not dead set on anything. Perhaps I’m mixed up.
What compounds are class I other than oxandrolone, primo and tren?
I suppose Methyltest is class 1. But it is rather useless for hypertrophy.
Furazabol would be a very good alternative to oxandrolone, if you can get it.
[quote]OTS1 wrote:
Certainly not dead set on anything. Perhaps I’m mixed up.
What compounds are class I other than oxandrolone, primo and tren?[/quote]
Nandrolone (Deca), boldenone (EQ), and dromostanolone (Masteron). Not from my own stacking experiences with these but from evaluating results of others.
Testosterone is mixed activity. So you can get synergism stacking either with a Class I or Class II.
I don’t know about methyltestosterone’s stacking behavior.
ok, thanks! got some thinking to do!
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Nowadays with letrozole and to (as personal opinion) a less-preferred extent with Arimidex, that is not a factor and anyone can use 700-750 mg/week and like it. Really nothing wrong with a gram per week either, and of course testosterone-only is not the only possible method.
[/quote]
Bill, if one were going to use 2/4 for a strength based plan only (for example, a strength athlete who wanted to improve lifts and/or physical performance, but wanted to maintain weight as static as possible due to weight class restrictions) with Test Prop (from Synovex H per your preparation instructions from earlier posts here) at 350 MG per week and Tren A (from Finaplix per your prepartion instructions from earlier posts here) at 175 MG per week, would you:
think this would be adequate to provide significant strength increase without significant size increase; and
recommend using any anti-estrogen on cycle or solely in off weeks for PCT?
If only on off weeks for PCT, what would be most appropriate/effective, the letrozole mentioned above or Nolvadex? If throughout the cycle, would the recommendation be any different? For example, letrozole on cycle and Nolva PCT versus only Letrozole or only Nolva.
Bill,
I just re-read the Synovex post and noticed you mentioned specifically in it that Clomid or Nolva would be preferable to an AI; in that case, I think I have the answer to question 2. Please correct me if I’m wrong though.
Any insight into question 1 would be very much appreciated.
It’s very problematic hoping for a significant strength increase without any significant size increase.
When that does happen, I believe it is principally from improving motor skills, not anything to do with anabolics. For example there are some assistance and bodybuilding lifts where my 1RM would be barely more than my 5RM, which I can tell by the fact that even though I ultimately get 5 reps, the first rep was so hard that I really don’t think I could have gotten it with any substantial further weight added.
However the muscles, in that example, probably are fully capable of generating at least 20% more force for the first rep than what they can do by the 5th, so if I were better at exerting maximal force in that exercise, I could see a big improvement in 1RM.
Some find an immediate strength increase on androgens but that is from CNS effect, in my opinion. Doesn’t work for me but some get it from trenbolone, among other androgens.
On your dosage question, yes it would be an effective cycle, but it would tend to build muscle.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
It’s very problematic hoping for a significant strength increase without any significant size increase.
When that does happen, I believe it is principally from improving motor skills, not anything to do with anabolics.
[/quote]
Yes, this makes sense. It’s the same principle you see in beginners who make great strength gains for a month or two without any significant increase in size. They are simply getting more efficient/coordinated in the movements. I definitely have some bodyfat I can lose prior to trying this, so I will concentrate on getting as lean as possible first.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Some find an immediate strength increase on androgens but that is from CNS effect, in my opinion. Doesn’t work for me but some get it from trenbolone, among other androgens.
On your dosage question, yes it would be an effective cycle, but it would tend to build muscle.[/quote]
The CNS response is what I was thinking about. I know you’ve written that “nerve tissue has been observed to respond almost instantly to androgen.” Have you found this tends to be lost when off or have you been able to tell if any of this CNS effect is maintained post-cycle?
Thank you very much for your input and reply. I understand what you’re saying that there will be muscle gain associated with the cycle.
I really appreciate your commenting on the dosage. I would not want to go with a dosage comparable to someone who was looking for max hypertrophy, but I definitely don’t want to under dose and waste time and money with a cycle which would only be effective at producing side effects and not muscle and strength gains.
If you already have highly developed motor skill, and CNS sytem through years of training (e.g 5 years non-stop OL style, track and field etc). THen you can gain good amount of strength in 2 weeks, enough to win, but don’t expect to keep it. If you are peaking for a competition, you can use 2-on 2 off, or whatever.
THe bottome line is that you have to have a solid foundation of strength AND motor skill to start with.
Training is very importatant, a lot more importatnt than drugs in this aspect. IF you are a strength athlete, you have to minimise non-fuctional mass, and maximise contractile protein. You don’t need huge arms and pecs either. You should integrate PEDs into your training cycle, use AAS during high volume phase and high intensity phase with restricted diet. Never bulk up, only go up in weight classes when you are ready. You can lay off the steroids during peaking, and use legal stimulants on comp day (if you are tested). AAS is primarily used to assist recovery and potentiate CNS system. Get some professional help and do a “communist style” 16 week cycle (training,nutrition,PED all-in-one), with 4x4 week mesocycle.
As for your 2 week mini cycle, I don’t think you really need to use an injectable. Dbol + anavar or OT as a standalone. If you feel like a alchemist, by all means, go ahead. Just too much hassle IMO.
Meph: what experiences have you had with Dbol stacked with OT?
[quote]sdwa wrote:
The CNS response is what I was thinking about. I know you’ve written that “nerve tissue has been observed to respond almost instantly to androgen.” Have you found this tends to be lost when off or have you been able to tell if any of this CNS effect is maintained post-cycle?
[/quote]
Personally, I seem to be an outlier in this regard in that having androgen in the system gives benefit only to my tolerable workload and gains. There isn’t a sudden increase in what I can lift because I injected TA just the day before or took an oral hours before. But other people do have that experience.
My understanding is that it is an effect requiring the androgen actually to be present in the system. But that is not from personal experience, simply from what seems to be the case for others when there has ever happened to be any mention of it, and it’s something I’ve never tended to query those that I’ve worked with about, so I don’t have any special insight into it.
Thank you mephistopheles for all the insight and advice.
Thanks again, Bill, for the reply.