Titan Tim Tackling his Twenties

Training Training Logs
3906

Always happy to share my perspective dude. I appreciate your willingness to self-experiment.

Here are my thoughts, keeping in mind I have no scientific background or formal education

Here’s where the theory becomes an issue: things don’t exist in a vacuum.

Are you meaning these two both eat the same amount of meat, but one also drinks a gallon of milk on top of that? That dude is definitely going to get fatter, simply because he’s consuming more FOOD in general.

But if you meant calories were equal, then let’s consider this.

A gallon of whole milk is about 2400 calories. To equate that to piedmontese grassfed sirloin, that’s 64 ounces of steak: 4lbs.

We already said these guys were both eating meat and cheese: imagine trying to eat four POUNDS of steak when you’re already pretty full of meat and cheese? But a gallon of milk? We can make that happen overtime. You’ve most likely done that with a gallon of milk a day.

But then, let’s consider this as well: if trainee A was ONLY eating meat and cheese, he’s most likely in a state of ketosis/fat adapted. The second individual, because of the lactose, will not reach ketosis: he’s taking in 192g of sugar per day. A fat adapted person is simply not going to have the appetite of a carb/sugar adapted athlete, because they aren’t able to generate the insulin spikes that create that hunger cycle. I used to be hungry enough that I ate every 30 minutes: now I can fast for over a day. So, again: trying to get trainee A to eat in the abundance that trainee B can eat in is going to be QUITE an accomplishment.

If, somehow, we could get them to equal calories, then it becomes an interesting situation. There are theories that the body doesn’t have the ability to store extra protein, but there’s ALSO a theory that excess protein can be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis, but then there’s an argument on if that process is DEMAND driven (the body makes glucose when it needs it) or SUPPLY driven (the body makes it when there’s a surplus of protein)(.

Meanwhile, carbs are rather insulinogenic, and some argue that carbs consumed in the presence of dietary fat shuttles fat to body fat cells. But some also argue that fat helps BLUNT the effect of insulin and can make spikes less sharp.

Here’s where I’m at: trainee A will be a fat adapted athlete. His body uses fat as a fuel source. As long as he keeps eating meat and cheese (I’d prefer eggs myself), he’ll keep giving his body it’s preferred fuel (fat) AND the protein necessary to build muscle.

A NON-fat adapted athlete is a carb adapted athlete. There’s nothing wrong with that, but THAT athlete needs to eat carbs for fuel and protein to build muscle. For them, the only purpose of fat is to keep hormones healthy.

And athlete that eats an abundance of fat AND carbs is simply an obese athlete. You aren’t going to find many obese people out there that are ONLY eating a surplus of carbs or fats: it’s BOTH, typically a combination of oils, salt, and sugar. If you check out ANY junk food, you tend to find those 3 ingredients.

Regarding fructose: I’ve seen too many arguments for and against it. My biggest concern is it’s impact on liver health. As far as I know, fructose does not replenish liver glycogen like glucose does, but I could be wrong.

EDIT: I was glad to see @QuadQueen swing by here, because she actually has the bonafides.

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3907

I was going to elaborate further in my response but I’m really tired right now and couldn’t find the energy to make it make sense, so I’m glad you swung back in and picked up my slack. lol

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You allowing me to even carry your metaphorical gym bag in this realm is legit the highest praise I can receive.

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Welp, let’s see what I can apply.

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3911

These are some great observations. When I was running low carb/Keto diets the lack of appetite was a big issue for me. I had to set a timer to make sure I ate to make sure I was getting the calories I needed

For athletes who are interested in going the fat adapted route Louis and the guys over at KetoGains have done some great work on how to diet for athletics performance in the Keto realm.

I always thought Berardi’s Massive Eating/Don’t Diet plan was an interesting way of keeping both carbs and fat in a diet without having insulin react with fat. I had very good results on that diet plan, both for gaining and loosing weight.

La’

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Berardi is the man! Big fan of his work. And carbs and fats can definitely be in the diet: it’s just a matter of understand which is a fuel source and which isn’t. For me, I am fat fueled, and when I eat carbs, it’s once a week, primarily to create a cyclical keto effect and restore some glycogen vs provide me with fuel, similar to how a sugar adapted/fueled athlete will eat fats for the health benefits.

The ketogains crew is a good group. Real pioneers in the space.

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3913

@T3hPwnisher

Pwn when you get a chance, would you be so kind to please answer my questions. I really need your help man.

  1. Let’s say for a long period time I’m eating lots of calories and then the following day, I simply eat less. I lose weight very quickly for several weeks and then it just stops.

Is this due to the whole homeostasis thing?

  1. Let’s say for a long period time, I’m eating lots of calories and then the following day, I simply eat less. But, I gradually lower the amount of food.

Is this how you combat the whole homeostasis thing and stay in a deficit for longer?

  1. Did you try the warrior diet, if so what is your experience with it? Any thoughts about ?

  2. What is the logic behind the feast and famine in regards to fat loss (even if your goal was not fat loss in the first place). Is it some kind of dance to trick your body into never getting too used to eating a lot and a little?

  3. Is lean meat harder for the body to absorb than fatty meat. Is dairy a hinderance in fat loss?

It’s just that I think my body is adapted to eating less, BUT ironically with losing fat there is such thing as crash dieting and eating too little. I find it very contradicting.

Do I need to just gain weight so I can enter into a fat loss mode? Do I need to do that every single time in order to lose fat?

I can’t tell if I’m being impatient or doing something wrong. If I do gain, the fat I have currently isn’t going away, I’m still going to have to lose that in addition to the new fat I gain.

And now I’m seeing that high reps are better for leaning out, but then I hear contradicting info that says that lifting heavy is better.

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3914

Hey man,

First, I meant to mention that I’m excited for you picking up “Purposeful Primitive”. I’ve been re-reading it, and it’s still awesome.

For question 1, I’m not understanding. You’re eating lots of calories, you only eat less for one day, and suddenly you lose weight very quickly? Or do you mean that you completely stop eating lots of calories and consistently start eating fewer calories?

If it’s the former: that’s just bonkers. If it’s the latter: initial weight loss tends to be a result of less food mass in the guts along with a reduction in body water that comes with reduced carbs/salt. Any weight that is lost or gained quickly is not “real weight”. It takes time to BUILD tissue, and it takes time to break it down. When you hit that stall, that means the quick weight has been lost and now it’s time to lose the REAL weight.

For point 2, I keep getting thrown off by you saying “the following day”. I’m reading this like it means “6 days on, 1 day off, repeat”, but I THINK what you’re meaning is “I transition from a phase of surplus into a phase of deficit”. Assuming THAT is what you mean, the reason a gradual approach tends to be preferred is that the body is VERY talented at adapting, and will tend to do so whenever possible. So if you cut yourself from 4000 calories to 2000 overnight, there will be a sharp decline, and then the body will adapt to that new caloric intake as the baseline, and suddenly fewer calories will need to be consumed to create a change. Justin Harris talks about doing this in reverse: BUILDING the metabolism of a trainee by gradually INCREASING the calories so that the same caloric load becomes the maintenance load SO THAT, when the deficit begins, trainees can still consume a large amount of calories to lose bodyfat, which allows them a lot of wiggleroom for losing fat.

In general, it should NOT be a goal to spend a long amount of time in a deficit: being a deficit is stressful to the body and can jack up your hormones, and it means NOT being in a phase where you can add and gain. Mike Isratel talks about “diet fatigue”, and it’s a real thing. Even IF we have a lot of fat to lose, I’d say it’s better to have phases of a deficit followed by a break/re-assessment and then back to the deficit, versus a long and perpetual deficit.

For point 3: I’ve not tried the Warrior Diet. The Warrior diet is VERY particular about how one breaks their fast, and it’s not an approach I care for. HOWEVER, I’ve definitely employed the principles of it. I engage in a protein sparing modified fast daily on workdays, with a meal either in the mid afternoon or the evening. I like that approach, and feel it has a lot of benefits.

I’m gonna address point 4 on it’s own in a separate post, because I’ve done that before.

For point 5: it’s not about “absorbing” but about digesting. Similarly, it’s not about lean meat or fatty meat: it’s about protein and fat. Again: fat is a fuel source, carbs are a fuel source, protein is NOT (ideally) a fuel source. In turn, for the body to break down protein to digest, it has to undergo a LOT of metabolic processes. Protein “contains” 4 calories per gram, but some theorize that we burn up about 3 calories just to digest the protein, which is why there are studies showing that overfeeding protein does NOT result in fat gain.

Dairy certainly CAN hinder fat loss. It’s food. It’s got protein, carbs and fats in it. If we consume too much of it, we overeat. For me, I don’t find dairy satiating at all: I can ALWAYS consume it, even if I am “full”. It’s also VERY caloricaly dense, and becomes very easy to overconsume in that regard. I eat very little of it when my goal is to be lean (outside of protein shakes), and consume more of it when I want to gain.

Regarding the lifting for losing fat thing: exercise is very poor, in general, for fat loss. Lifting especially so. The purpose of lifting in fat loss is to help spare the muscle you’ve built and keep you in a positive hormonal state while you lose. Losing fat is catabolic, so you wanna send the message to your body to keep as much muscle as possible. The only real exercise I care for regarding fat loss is walking, as mentioned previously.

I believe you’ve nailed it with impatience. A common quote is “take how much fat you think you need to lose and double it”.

Between these two photos, I’d lost 25lbs. I ended up eventually losing another 10lbs on top of that. I did NOT think I had 35lbs to lose.

Carnivore before after
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For point 4, I’ve got a post you mind find helpful

Ultimately, the famine is about priming the body FOR the feast. You get the body into a state where it becomes VERY efficient at wringing out every last drop of nutrition from what it eats, and then you BLAST it with nutrition so it completely maximizes it. And after enough time feasting, you don’t want that response to become blunt, so you famine to get the body unsettled and ready to resume that.

It’s the same with my weekly nutrition: I’m constantly varying food intake levels to keep my body guessing.

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This got re-shared today and seems relevant to what you’ve been discussing recently

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Thanks for putting this up Pwn!

Not to Hijack TL’s log, but I’ve been lifting at 0500 in the morning fasted and it’s absolutely wrecked me. I added some food/carbs before hand this week and it’s going much better. The Cortisol/Adrenalin interaction from this post explained what was happening.

La’

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For myself, I tried training fasted and I tried training fed, and the outcome is the same, so I go fasted to make my morning routine quicker.

However, I DO drink a Metabolic Drive shake in the middle of the night, so it’s really more of a “semi-fasted” state.

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I added a Hydrolyzed Protein shake with a little bit of dextrose right after I get out of bed. Trying to replicate the old Surge Recovery formula. Really fast. I then have another after my workout. It’s made a huge difference in how I feel the rest of the day. The rest of my meals are lower carb or at least low glycemic carbs.

Before adding these two shakes I would be groggy/lethargic for the rest of the day after my 0500 workout.

La’

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Oh man, when I used Surge it was nuts! Haha. I had to quit using it because my performance was too strong and I’d end up getting injured.

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Pwn, you are a joy to this world. Thank you for taking your time to write up not one, but TWO long detailed posts.

Anyway, the way I started the definition diet was practically a crash diet, so I actually made a mistake. I went from eating tons of food on the cruise to eating only protein. It was a huge slash of calories right off the bat, it was not like I was eating a 1/2 or a 1 lb of meat each meal.
I ate in such a way that I could practically ignore eating in general. Quickly enough, my body adapted to it and it would be stupid to go below that.

I’m just going focus on gaining muscle now.

I’m going to get myself to a baseline of 3 or 6 meals a day, all three meals consist of 1 lb (or 1/2 lb for 6 meals) depending on my eating speed and sanity. Only protein sources that are close to 1000 calories if one were to consume 1 lb of it.

Then I simply ramp up calories using protein powder, heavy cream, milk, cheese or whatever. If done right I should be able to comfortably lower the amount I eat gradually for the next time I want to lose fat.

TLDR; I’m going to bulk on protein + fats and track my food so that I can gradually lower it when I lose fat again.

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I like your plan! Something I’d consider is a phasic approach. You’ve already identified meat as a staple. From there, identify your “nuclear options” and leave those for when it NEEDS to happen. Based on what you listed, protein powder would be the first thing I add, then cheese, then cream, then milk. Basically, when you hit a stall with meat, add powder and see how long you can progress before you stall, then add cheese, etc etc. I’d even consider butter in there, and I’d put it most likely after cheese but before cream.

You don’t ever mention eggs in this equation: any plans to eat them too?

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TL

Are you planning on tracking your meals? When changing to this eating style I find that my lack of appetite leads me to UNDER eat if I’m not conscious of my feeding schedule and tracking my intake.

I do like Pwn’s idea of the Nuclear Options. Having quick, easy food options when you’re running below feeding goals make life a lot easer and you’re more likely to hit your calorie needs.

On Edit;

I can read, I swear i can read. LOL ignore me.

La’

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Great idea Pwn! I’m going to apply your words.

Yes, I will be eating eggs. I actually went shopping two days ago and bought a bunch of food according to the plan which includes eggs.

I made baked pork-chops for the first time. They come in 4 lb bags and all I have to do is throw them in the oven like meatballs, baked chicken, or ribs.

I figured I’d take the week off of training and get back to it next week with a fresh mind.

If you have any ideas for cooking meat in bulk, please let me know.

Meatballs are so stupid easy to make.

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I just ran across this thread this morning. Has some ideas and techniques I hadn’t seen before.

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