Anyone else tired of eating or drinking shakes 6x a day? It really gets to be a pain in the ass and interferes w/ everything in my life. I often get tired and lazy after a meal (and no, I don’t eat carbs) but have much more energy w/out food in me all the time. I’ve been eating 2 meals for the last several weeks and have noticed more fat loss w/out any noticable muscle loss. I also find it harder to control my diet w/ several meals. I eat 2 larger meals which are very strict/low carbs, and feel satisfied b/c they are large enough. I CAN be strict for 2 meals. When it comes to 6 meals, I start obsessing w/ food and find it VERY hard to be strict day in-day out 6x a day, every day. I also feel so free b/c I dont have to carry a tupperware everywhere I go w/ food or a shake. I think the protein pulse research applies here as it fits into this type of approach and really does work given the chance. After all, I dont think we evolved to eat so many small meals, like predator animals eating larger meals less frequently yet having huge amounts of muscle.
I think you make some good points about human not being made to eat food 6 times per day. Most likely what’s caused your energy and body comp improvements is just getting excess insulin out of your system. Eating 6 times per day the way most people do it keeps insulin levels high all the time which is fine for muscle growth but leaves you feeling lethargic and hungry…cut down on meal frequency and you cut down on insulin which improves your energy and allows you to burn of some fat.
Kelly, thanx for the feedback. I’ve been reading your posts for a long time now and feel good to get positive feedback from someone who obviously knows their stuff. Would you agree that eating 2x a day is enough to lose bodyfat? I remember your post a long time ago about the Mercola article talking about fructose and recommending less meals. I’ve done plenty of research on nutrition and it seems that we have an 18hour time period to go w/out food. Phase I and II of fasting allow adaptions to protecting protein and increasing FFA usage where up to 90% of energy can be met via FFA, at around 18 hours one enters Phase III where there is a drop in FFA utilization and increase in protein utilization for energy.
Here are some quotes
Fasting slows down the aging process by encouraging new cell growth. This rejuvenation is speeded up as the required proteins are resynthesized from decomposed cells. Also, fastenings lowering of the basal metabolic rate, the rate at which the body burns fuel to create energy, promotes longevity.
Researchers Richard Weindruch, Ph.D., and Roy Walford, M.D., have shown that longevity is directly linked to efficient energy consumption. “Thrifty” animals live longer than “burner” animals. Fasting causes a decrease in B.M.R. of around one percent daily until it stabilizes at 75 percent of its normal level. What this boils down to is that tour body needs a break every once in a while from the daily chores of mastication, digestion, assimilation, and elimination. This hiatus will also provide the person fasting with more energy because it will spare the approximately ten percent of the bodys energy budget that is normally spent performing these functions.
Fasting normalizes hormone levels
Signs of premature aging, a lagging libido, and a bulging waistline are all indicative of malfunctioning endocrine or sex glands and diminished sex-hormone production. Scientific fasting has been shown to revitalize these glands and normalize hormone production, thus reversing such processes. A number of biochemical changes occur during fasting. When the body becomes more efficient at burning fuel, it reduces its dependence on glucose and uses fatty acids more efficiently. This means that insulin sensitivity is greatly increased, with more anabolic (muscle-growth) activity as a result. There is also a notable increase in the production of growth hormone, which is responsible for increased lean-body mass, decreased body fat, increased body fat, increased energy, and a reversal in the signs of aging.
To gain some insight into the control systems underlying the regulation of body composition during lean-body weight gain and fat loss, we can look to the classic Minnesota Experiment, which involved 32 men subjected to long-term semi-starvation and refeeding. In 1996, scientists at the University of Geneva in Switzerland duplicated the methods used in the Minnesota Experiment in order to (1) determine whether the control of energy partitioning between lean tissue and fat tissue during weight loss and weight recovery is an individual characteristic; (2) determine whether the reduction in weight calorie-wasting thermogenesis during weight loss persists during weight recovery, and underlies the disproportionate regain of fat tissue; and (3) integrate the control of energy partitioning and that of thermogenesis in order to explain the pattern of lean-and fat-tissue mobilization and deposition during weight loss and weight recovery. The men were assessed according to body weight, body fat, lean-body mass, and basal metabolic rate at the end of 24 weeks of semistarvation and again after 12 weeks of restricted refeeding. These measurements were used to calculate the parameter known as the P ratio, defined as the proportion of body energy mobilized as protein during weight loss or as the proportion of body energy deposited as protein during weight recovery. The data from this study suggest that lean-and-fat-tissue deposition during weight recovery is to a large extent determined by individual variations in the initial percentage of body fat. So, the lower your body fat is and the more muscle you have, the greater will be your potential to become more fit.
A very important factor in building muscle is optimizing the way your body utilizes protein. Fasting has been shown time and again to accelerate the bodyÕs ability to produce protein in skeletal muscle. Studies performed at Cornell University show that when subjects are starved for 24 hours, cellular energy decreases but there is no decrease in cell protein. The body relies heavily on fats and carbohydrates for energy during a fast but spars protein, and if you time the breaking of the fast properly, you can optimize your protein utilization.
According to scientists from Pennsylvania State Universitys College of Medicine in Hershey, protein synthesis in skeletal muscle is markedly stimulated (180 percent of control rate) within three hours of eating in subjects who had fasted for 18 hours.
“In an article in the December 25, 1998, Journal of Biology and Chemistry the authors assert that, thanks to A.M.P-activated protein kinase, protein production dramatically increased in test subjects who had fasted.”
“The utilization of proteins and the involvement of lipids (fats) under starvation conditions was investigated by scientists at 15 the Centre d’Ecologie et Physiologie Energetiques, in Strasabourg, France. They that the shift from Phase II (protein sparing) to Phase III (increased protein breakdown) there is a change from the preferential use of lipids to a preferential utilization of proteins. They also found that the total activity of the enzyme carnitine palmitoyl transferase was substantially higher in subjects at the end of Phase II of starvation.
Carnitine palmitoyl transferase is responsible for helping to create palmitoylcarnitine, which facilitates the transfer of long-chain fatty acids from the cytoplasm of the cell into the mitochondria during the oxidation of fatty acids. Carnitine palmitoyl transferase was 48 percent higher in subjects studied at the end of Phase II than it was in fed subjects but was similar in fed subjects and subjects studied at the beginning of Phase III. And the total activity of fatty acyl-CoA (the coenzyme responsible for fat oxidation) was 73 percent lower only in subjects studied at the beginning of Phase III. It appears that a fast must be broken at the end of Phase II or the very beginning of Phase lll for ultimate protein synthesis and fat burning.”
Does this info sound accurate? I also believe the protein pulse research can be useful for this type of eating pattern. I think Brian Batchelor’s “Protein Pulse” article was horrible and really didn’t make the best use of available research. Getting most protein early in the day, then lifting in the evening and getting around 30g protein post-workout seems so useless I dont know where to begin. Why not take the “post-workout window” where eating protein after a workout helps build muscle, and have the pulse then. Then eat the other smaller meal(s) during the day. This goes along w/ post-workout nutrition research, goes w/ how predators in nature eat, and would make my life much easier if it works well.
You know from time to time I go back to “3 squares” because I get tired of eating all the time too. I still use a post workout shake but just eat breakfast lunch and dinner. I dont plan when or how long I am going to do it. Seems to work out to about 2-3 times per year for about 10 days at a time then I am ready to go back to the 6-7 meals per day. I am glad that I am not the only one. I am a firm beleiver in listening to your body.
that is complete hogwash. the only thing that you accomplish by eating less frequently is slowing your metabolism, depriving yourself of essential nutrients especially while dieting, and ups and downs with your sugar levels. eating 6 times per day for example keeps your sugar levels balanced there is no dip in between meals such as the one that occurs when you only eat once every 8 or 10 hours. which leads to ups and downs in energy levels and body fat accumulation. second the only way that you can consume and process enough protein to maintain your muscle is by eating more frequently. third how could anyone say that eating less gives them more energy. do you know what a calorie is? a calorie is a measure of how much energy a particular food contains. so how could consuming less calories yeild more energy? yes you will lose weight while only eating twice per day but it will be mostly muscle. have you been monitoring your bf% before and after you started this diet? and please dont compare a human being to a predator animal such as a lion. apples and oranges.
I’m with P-Dog on this one. I think the more lean mass you accumulate, the more you will have to eat to maintain it. I sometimes eat 8-10 times per day(including shakes). Even when i take breaks from my diet, I couldn’t survive on less than 5 or 6 feedings per day. Bump up you’re training volume to keep your appetite up.
p-dog, metabolism isnt regulated on an hourly basis, its on a much larger scale. Our metabolism doesnt immediately shut down after a few hours w/out food. Lyle McDonald compared studies of 3vs6 meals and if macros and calories are equal, there isn’t a difference in weight loss or muscle retention. Can you prove that metabolism slows down w/ less meals???
The ups and downs have more to do with blood sugar which goes up and drops low when one eats a lot of carbs (especially high GI carbs), if one doesnt eat carbs and sticks w/ protein and fat, blood sugar remains MUCH more stable.
You say one can only process enough protein with several small meals, but this seems to go against some recent research showing much better utilization by getting protein in a larger meal, rather than spread. Also, constant ingestion of protein does NOT necessarily maintain an anabolic state and can lead to protein wasting. Just b/c protein is constantly ingested DOES NOT mean that it is being used by muscle tissue/or sparing muscle. This is the popular belief but hasn’t been absolutely proven by science.
Perhaps the energy required for constant digestion has taken away from my energy, but I have no reason to lie when I say I have more energy. How do you know I don’t, are you me??? Have you tried eating less frequently, if not then what basis do you have for your arguement?? Perhaps I am utilizing more bodyfat for energy.
pete, you are correct i do not have any scientific evidence to prove to you that eating more frequently allows you to process more protein. nor do i have scientific evidence that eating more frequently speeds your metabolism. all that i have is my common sense, trial and error, and the readings of about 50 years of IFBB pros secrets to success. it doesnt take a genius to monitor the changes in his body when comparing eating 5-6 smaller meals per day as opposed to eating only a couple of times per day. when i put my clients on a new diet. the first thing i do is tell them that they need to eat more frequently. they always respond with “oh i cant eat that much food, i usually only eat 2-3 times per day.” within three days of eating more frequently they all feel more energy and feel hungry more often.(they all lose bodyfat and build lean muscle also)they have more energy from increased calories and balanced sugar level, and feel more hungry from a boost in metabolic rate. you cannot argue these facts. the more often you eat the more often you get hungry, because your body is no longer in a starvation mode, it is receiving sufficient nutrients and is burning them at a much more efficient rate. the rate at which you process protein is regulated by your metabolism, how much lean mass you have as well as the timing of your meals. your body can only process a certain amount of nutrients at a time. the rest would be that stuff that you see floating in the toilet after a mornings dump. the more lean mass you have and the harder you train the more amino acids your muscles need to maintain and rebuild. if you can only process a certain amount of protein during a single sitting, logic follows that eating more frequently will allow you to process more throughout the day. one final note. do you think that all of the pro and amateur bodybuilders of the past 50 years are just flat out lying to you? or do you think they are just idiots that don’t have enough “scientific evidence” to back their claims?
It’s obvious that it is not correct, at least certainly not on an ongoing basis, that there is no loss of protein during fasting hours, but remarkable increase in protein synthesis during feeding after fasting. If that were so, LBM would be being continuously added without even need for training. Not so in the slightest.
What is I think the case is that either in the isolated acute case, there either was no substantial loss of muscle protein in those particular fasting hours (but could well be on a chronic basis) or that there was a substantial loss, but a loss on the same order as the amount of later increased synthesis, was too small to be detected.
kelly/pete
exactly how and what do you suggest eating?
would working out more than once a day change your ideas on eating?
I feel both schools of thought are right and have some validity. Eating 6 times a day it is definitely possible to process more protein and grow bigger but followed the way a lot of people do it is a recipe for hypoglycemia and subsequent insulin resistance which is why many feel better when eating less frequently. Probably the ideal way to incorporate this would be to do something like using massive eating combinations. Also there is something to be said for the additional energizing effects of less frequent eating. I know when in ketosis the body produces more epinephrine so the same might also be true of less meal frequency.
Massive Eating or Don’t Diet plans by John Berardi call for upwards of 6 meals daily but will not give you the feeling of lethargy nor will it give you too much insulin. Alternate meals protein plus carbs (P+C) and protein plus fat (P+F) every two to three hours. This plan works great and is easy to follow.
There has been at least one study where rats were forced to fast every few days. They obtained the same benefits as rats put on calorie restricted diets. (30%-40% below normal.)
There is a lot of anecdotal evidence of the health benefits of fasting, but I am unfamiliar with any research done on fasting on humans.
My understanding about frequent eating is that every time you eat your metabolism goes up for a short while. Your insulin tends to be more level with frequent eating if you are consuming the same number of calories through 5 or six meals as compared to 2 or 3. Consuming large quantities of food required for bulking is easier if divided up between 6 to 8 meals. I also understand that 5 hours without eating is when your body begins to heavily react as if you are starving, and begins dropping it’s metabolism, preserving fat, and catabolising muscle.
Calorie restriction causes a reduction in igf-1, so I would be surprised that fasting would increase human growth hormone because it is converted to igf-1. It would be interesting if fasting were to cause an increase while calorie restriction were to cause a decrese.
If you really don’t like the feeling of eating five equal meals, I would recommend eating three regular meals, and two snack sized meals to prevent catabolism. The two smaller meals could be 150 to 200 calories per. This should prevent feelings of being too full between the larger meals. I don’t know if it will help with lethargy though. When I switched to more frequent eating it helped me feel a lot better then large infrequent meals.
Pete,
Let me be the first to say that you did an excellent reveiw of the literature. In regards to the Geneva experiment, I have the study myself and might suggest it is of prime importance in our hobby. The title is “The Control of partitioning between protein and fat during human starvation: its internal determinants and biological significance.”
For those people that think eating six times a day is going to prevent the metabolism from slowing down they are misled. Metabolism is only going to slow down appreciably (statitistically significant) after repeated days of sub-maintenance energy (calorie) ingestion. In the classic Minny experiment, it was a week + before the changes in BMR were noted, and this was due more to the fact that there was less Celluar material in the body (due to its death from semi-starvation) to continue at the same BMR. When refeeding occured and protein and celluar synthesis took place, BMR returned to baseline levels in less than a week. So eating six times a day is not necessary, and WILL NOT in and of iteself prevent a slow down in metabolism. Now if you are bulking, fine eat as many times as you want a day, but in terms of metabolism slowing down etc. etc., you have to look energy intake vs. expenditure, not how many times per day you eat.
I’m out
Vain
p-dog, 1st off let me say that going based on 50 years of IFBB pro secrets is about as unreliable a source of nutrition as there is. Lets see, 1st off ALL IFBB pros are on large amounts of steroids, insulin, diuretics, etc. So they can get away with doing a LOT wrong and still get superior results. Next, they have superior genetics to 99% of the population. And where do you get these secrets, from muscle magazines. This is bogus b/c its a well known FACT that these pros don’t get paid enough to be in the magazines, so they don’t tell how they really diet. The stories/workouts/diets are all GHOSTWRITTEN, completely made up sometimes. And yes, many pro bodybuilders aren’t the smartest people in the world, some are intelligent, but many are pretty clueless when it comes to training and eating. And if you’ve done research on bodybuilders for the last 50 years, you would know that things HAVE changed especially w/ their approach to dieting. During the 80’s the high carb diet became mainstream and that is pretty much what all bodybuilders followed. Before that time eggs, beef, etc were the dietary staples and people grew great on these diets, but abandoned it for a low fat diet b/c the supposed scares of heart disease, etc. Well almost every bought this info and you know what, it all turned out to be BS, so don’t underestimate the ignorance of large groups of people.
As a side note, 2 bodybuilders who had among the most impressive physiques ever, Serge Nubret and Thierry Pastel, ate 1 huge meal a day, after working out. Not that I follow any pro’s advice, but are just 2 examples. Corey Everson, several times Ms. Olympia, never ate more than 3 meals a day, this came from her ex husband, Jeff Everson.
Being hungry doesnt necessarily mean you have a faster metabolic rate, where do people come up with this? And about our body only processing so much in a meal, and excreting the rest. I’ve done the same low carb diet eating 6 meals and now have 2 meals, I have to tell you I don’t excrete any more waste than I did eating several meals.
I TOTALLY agree the more you train/harder you train, the more amino acids you need. I’m a HUGE protein fan, I think 1g per lb. is minimum, and results can be better for mass when they go up to 3g per lb., I won’t argue that b/c I know protein is key for ANY bodybuilding goals.
Listen, this isn’t a fight saying 5-6 meals doesn’t work, I’m just saying that perhaps there are other ways to meeting our goals.
Vain68, glad to get some support. Another expert here at our site, good to get some feedback from you. I agree that the TRUE, undeniable factor to fat loss is calorie balance. This rules superior to all other options. People have gotten ripped on high carbs/low fat and high fat/low carbs. Metabolism will slow somewhat and I believe after a 25% decrease generally remains at that level even at very low calories. And I don't see the problem comparing ourselves to predatory animals b/c for most of existance we lived as hunter gatherers, and in many cases as pure hunters. Why wouldn't we follow a similar eating pattern at least to protein foods that other animals eating a similar diet follow. Again grazing animals eat grass all day and hunters generally eat and fast, it is possible it is built into our genes. As an example, you eat every 3 hours. Try to run a sprint during the time between meals, at least for me it is painful and hard, I feel "heavy. Now run in the morning before food or wait around 5-6 hours after a meal, I know I'm able to move b/c i'm not weighed down by food. I think eating all the time is a way to make people lazy and obsess over food. I know I did until I cut back on meals and cut out my carbs. BTW, I've read in a biochemistry book the small intestines are able to handle 500-700g protein at a time, I'll look into validating this soon.
For what it’s worth, the following is a quote from Skip La Cour answering a question about meal frequency on the AST website:
“The human body’s ‘famine defense mechanism’ (what it does to avoid dying in the event there’s a long period of time without food) is to hold onto some body fat and keep as a safety reserve at all times. If you can influence the efficiency of your metabolism, your body will start getting conditioned to hold onto less body fat. Think of your body telling itself, ‘I get fed so well and so often, I don’t need to carry around this extra body fat. I won’t ever need it!’”
Strikes me as an interesting point.
pete, i agree that following everything that you read in a magazine is bogus. but i do believe that a lot of what is in there is true. just because your info may come from a book and mine comes from a magazine(allegedly) doesnt mean that yours is any more reliable. in fact i have read many bodybuilding books and they all seem to agree on meal frequency. yes there are a few controversial bodybuilders out there such as mike mentzer. but he didnt begin his controversial ways(claiming that most bodybuilders are grossly overnourished) or his hit training untill he was already a great bodybuilder. furthermore i dont believe that just because guys are using tons of drugs and have superior genetics to us that they dont know what they are talking about or that they train less intense. you cannot be great at something by just skating along. my point about pro bb’s is this: what got arnold and mr. columbo huge are the same things that got yates and coleman huge. almost all bodybuilders follow the same training and nutritional principals and they work. not because they are some geniuses but because trial and error over many decades has proven that they do. there are of course a few exceptions to this rule but the majority follow the same principles. my opinion is that you cant possibly consume enough quality nutrients in only two meals per day. not to mention that you cannot balance your sugar level or maintain a positive nitrogen balance. the reason i say you cant compare humans to lions or other predators is because most of the time predators go for weeks without food. they eat when they find something. and during the dry season meals are few and far between. i think we would both agree that fasting for a week and then gorging yourself would not be an effective strategy in building lean mass. their bodies are completley differnet than ours.
the exact same can be said about water
Im never not hungry so it doesnt bother me any.
I came across the warrior diet book in the store and decided to give it a try. I was intrigued about the detoxifying effects of fasting and enzyme reloading. I tried it I was scared because the last 7 years have been 5-6meals a day. I felt more energy during those fasting times than I have ever in my life. My workouts were amazing. then I come home and chow down. I feel that food was running my life, and we have been conditioned to think linear when it comes to bodybuilding, I was paranoid if I missed meals always bringing shakes and tupper wear with me. My girlfriend was going crazy, everythree hours. The bottom line the human body evolved to build muscle before weights and 6 meal a day eating. My strength is increasing and so is my sex drive. I love it and ever night I am so satisfied. I urge everyone to try it for 1 week. Question authority!