[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
What makes it appropriate specifically besides it just being tradition?
[/quote]
I think that has already been discussed extensively.
[/quote]
Nope
Sure the tradition of… but how about you to the justification of?
yah… might want to parse things a bit
I am leaning towards tradition on this one.
k
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
What makes it appropriate specifically besides it just being tradition?
[/quote]
I think that has already been discussed extensively.
[/quote]
Because we can discuss a bunch of traditions that are no longer appropriate as well as business practices that are no longer in use.
[/quote]
But for the sake of discussion let’s assume that tradition is the only reason tipping is used in this country. My points all along have been:
If it needs changing the market will change it if the market is left alone.
Don’t whine, "The market takes too long to change something like this therefore I/we will go to the Great Wielder of the Sword, the government, and get it to change this what I consider to be odious practice.
I don’t care how the rest of the world - Scotland, Japan, Taiwan, Germany, Uganda, Ant-fuckin-arctica, et al - does their business in this regard. They’re not baaaad people or anything like that but I just don’t care therefore don’t haul them out in your Show and Tell skit and use them to convince me of the worthiness of non-tipping. I DON’T CARE.
Besides, without tipping where are we gonna come up with hot cocktail waitresses
{b} how about folks that earn their wage? [b/] [/quote]
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
What makes it appropriate specifically besides it just being tradition?
[/quote]
I think that has already been discussed extensively.
But for the sake of discussion let’s assume that tradition is the only reason tipping is used in this country. My points all along have been:
If it needs changing the market will change it if the market is left alone.
Don’t whine, "The market takes too long to change something like this therefore I/we will go to the Great Wielder of the Sword, the government, and get it to change this what I consider to be odious practice.
I don’t care how the rest of the world - Scotland, Japan, Taiwan, Germany, Uganda, Ant-fuckin-arctica, et al - does their business in this regard. They’re not baaaad people or anything like that but I just don’t care therefore don’t haul them out in your Show and Tell skit and use them to convince me of the worthiness of non-tipping. I DON’T CARE.
Besides, without tipping where are we gonna come up with hot cocktail waitresses
{b} how about folks that earn their wage? [b/][/quote]
If this thread was a server, I’d leave a penny because this is ridiculous.
[quote]SBT wrote:
If this thread was a server, I’d leave a penny because this is ridiculous.[/quote]
thank god you were here
You don’t answer questions because you are LAZY and have NO ATTENTION SPAN. You read the first two lines of a response and fly off the handle, disregarding the rest of the post. You are being a brat, so cut it out or take your ball and go home.
You are mad that tradition makes you FEEL OBLIGATED to tip, thereby adding fine print to the “optional” aspect of gratuity; you’re upset that traditional makes tipping NOT optional (to you). That’s all. You are acting like a 6 year old brat. I have no clue why tipping OFFENDS you.
The following is addressed to everyone else with a pulse and greater than 7th grade reading comprehension:
Facts…
A) OG is an auditor for a CASINO, so she audits revenues generated IN A CASINO SETTING, and therefore sees wages ONLY RELEVANT TO A CASINO SETTING…where patrons will tip based on how they feel from their wins/losses
A2) Casino setting does NOT equal everywhere else, aka “mainstream,” because if I win $1000 at a card game and order a $10 burger, I’ll likely tip WAY more than 15% ($1.50)…I might tip $20 because I’m feeling large and likely tipsy, too, from all the drinks OG brought me while I was gambling. This does NOT happen at most restaurants, therefore OG’s assertion that she somehow has insider info into the ENTIRE service industry is ridiculous. Her case does NOT apply.
B) Not every professional can accept a tip-based job outside of something like the food industry. It wouldn’t work. WIth restaurants, you have to lower your prices of meals to compete with OTHER restaurants–and much of that competition is fast food as well, hence rock bottom pricing, relatively speaking–and there are a ton of other places to dine at.
Plus, operating costs are relatively high for this type of business because traffic is NOT uniform over the course of the week; you have roughly 7 day a week costs and 3 day a week profits. This is not the same for a tax preparation firm or a paralegal/law firm/ or whatever fucking business you want to compare to.
Other businesses don’t necessarily experience the same fluctuations in business throughout the week…RESTAURANTS do, hence why it is harder to operate one and harder for the owner to make money. Costs HAVE to be balanced with revenue stream, and costs of labor is one area where this occurs.
Anyone with a PULSE and reading skills, please read the above if you haven’t followed this thread. OG, please do not respond to my post. You have shown that you’re not willing to read someone’s post. This isn’t meant for you.
C) OG thinks it’s “ridiculous” to tip because servers AT A CASINO make, according to her, $38/hr. This is NOT standard server wage at most restaurants. It doesn’t happen. It happens AT A CASINO or REALLY fine dining. You know what else happens at a casino? Blackjack dealers can make $40+/hr…am I outraged at this? Are you guys? You shouldn’t be, because you can also make a lot of money gambling.
So, because she is OFFENDED that this is their salary, she wants to spite them and NOT tip, to lower their wage. THAT is why she hates tipping. She is jealous of someone else’s take home pay–which, if you recall, is a skewed view because she’s looking at CASINO restaurants–and wants to spite them. Observe:
"I can tell you that the majority of servers don’t want a standard wage because they are GAMBLING THAT THEY CAN MAKE MORE.
fine… then gamble that you lose. " – OG, February 15th, 2011
We have already explained what “justifies” tipping, yet OG asks where the tradition comes from. If we explain the tradition, she asks where the justification comes from (which has already been stated). This is a see-saw argument.
Is my family in the restaurant business? Our family friends are, several familes in fact, so we know how hard it is to run a fucking restaurant. A restuarant that is NOT inside of a fucking casino. A restaurant that has to support ITSELF.
And servers “earn” their wages by providing good service, hence the verb “to earn.”
If this pisses off people so much (tipping), why not use the same argument with sales people who get paid commission and a base salary that’s usually not enough to live off of? Where is the outrage?
“You fucker, you make $95,000/yr? I will buy from your colleague to bring that salary level back down to earth so it’s closer to my salary!”
Sound right to you guys? That’s the crux of the OG argument.
What does it matter what someone else makes at the end of the year? Why should we tip based on what we perceive that person’s value to be (no education…often a horrible assumption…no skills…it DOES take skill, piss off!)
And the argument that servers should leave their jobs if they’re unsatisfied with the wage is FUCKING RETARDED. Serving jobs are FLEXIBLE for students and single parents and whatever, that’s WHY so many people take them up. Is this point lost in this discussion?
OG, remember, please don’t respond. I don’t want to stress you out–seriously. Push, AC, DJHT, and anyone else who is willing to read.
And if the argument is seriously that most professionals don’t get paid in tips, hence why servers shouldn’t get them, either:
Would you be willing to get paid per meaningful unit of work?
i.e. $x per client file created or tax return done or whatever? That would be the most “scalable” compromise. That would likely keep most people off of Facebook during business hours.
Would someone like OG be willing to work per report or whatever meaningful unit of work is completed, so any idleness would NOT come at the expense of the employer?
What would you guys think of a pay system like that?
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
You don’t answer questions because you are LAZY and have NO ATTENTION SPAN. You read the first two lines of a response and fly off the handle, disregarding the rest of the post. You are being a brat, so cut it out or take your ball and go home.
You are mad that tradition makes you FEEL OBLIGATED to tip, thereby adding fine print to the “optional” aspect of gratuity; you’re upset that traditional makes tipping NOT optional (to you). That’s all. You are acting like a 6 year old brat. I have no clue why tipping OFFENDS you.
The following is addressed to everyone else with a pulse and greater than 7th grade reading comprehension:
Facts…
A) OG is an auditor for a CASINO, so she audits revenues generated IN A CASINO SETTING, and therefore sees wages ONLY RELEVANT TO A CASINO SETTING…where patrons will tip based on how they feel from their wins/losses
A2) Casino setting does NOT equal everywhere else, aka “mainstream,” because if I win $1000 at a card game and order a $10 burger, I’ll likely tip WAY more than 15% ($1.50)…I might tip $20 because I’m feeling large and likely tipsy, too, from all the drinks OG brought me while I was gambling. This does NOT happen at most restaurants, therefore OG’s assertion that she somehow has insider info into the ENTIRE service industry is ridiculous. Her case does NOT apply.
B) Not every professional can accept a tip-based job outside of something like the food industry. It wouldn’t work. WIth restaurants, you have to lower your prices of meals to compete with OTHER restaurants–and much of that competition is fast food as well, hence rock bottom pricing, relatively speaking–and there are a ton of other places to dine at.
Plus, operating costs are relatively high for this type of business because traffic is NOT uniform over the course of the week; you have roughly 7 day a week costs and 3 day a week profits. This is not the same for a tax preparation firm or a paralegal/law firm/ or whatever fucking business you want to compare to.
Other businesses don’t necessarily experience the same fluctuations in business throughout the week…RESTAURANTS do, hence why it is harder to operate one and harder for the owner to make money. Costs HAVE to be balanced with revenue stream, and costs of labor is one area where this occurs.
Anyone with a PULSE and reading skills, please read the above if you haven’t followed this thread. OG, please do not respond to my post. You have shown that you’re not willing to read someone’s post. This isn’t meant for you.
C) OG thinks it’s “ridiculous” to tip because servers AT A CASINO make, according to her, $38/hr. This is NOT standard server wage at most restaurants. It doesn’t happen. It happens AT A CASINO or REALLY fine dining. You know what else happens at a casino? Blackjack dealers can make $40+/hr…am I outraged at this? Are you guys? You shouldn’t be, because you can also make a lot of money gambling.
So, because she is OFFENDED that this is their salary, she wants to spite them and NOT tip, to lower their wage. THAT is why she hates tipping. She is jealous of someone else’s take home pay–which, if you recall, is a skewed view because she’s looking at CASINO restaurants–and wants to spite them. Observe:
"I can tell you that the majority of servers don’t want a standard wage because they are GAMBLING THAT THEY CAN MAKE MORE.
fine… then gamble that you lose. " – OG, February 15th, 2011
We have already explained what “justifies” tipping, yet OG asks where the tradition comes from. If we explain the tradition, she asks where the justification comes from (which has already been stated). This is a see-saw argument.
Is my family in the restaurant business? Our family friends are, several familes in fact, so we know how hard it is to run a fucking restaurant. A restuarant that is NOT inside of a fucking casino. A restaurant that has to support ITSELF.
And servers “earn” their wages by providing good service, hence the verb “to earn.”
If this pisses off people so much (tipping), why not use the same argument with sales people who get paid commission and a base salary that’s usually not enough to live off of? Where is the outrage?
“You fucker, you make $95,000/yr? I will buy from your colleague to bring that salary level back down to earth so it’s closer to my salary!”
Sound right to you guys? That’s the crux of the OG argument.
What does it matter what someone else makes at the end of the year? Why should we tip based on what we perceive that person’s value to be (no education…often a horrible assumption…no skills…it DOES take skill, piss off!)
And the argument that servers should leave their jobs if they’re unsatisfied with the wage is FUCKING RETARDED. Serving jobs are FLEXIBLE for students and single parents and whatever, that’s WHY so many people take them up. Is this point lost in this discussion?
OG, remember, please don’t respond. I don’t want to stress you out–seriously. Push, AC, DJHT, and anyone else who is willing to read.
And if the argument is seriously that most professionals don’t get paid in tips, hence why servers shouldn’t get them, either:
Would you be willing to get paid per meaningful unit of work?
i.e. $x per client file created or tax return done or whatever? That would be the most “scalable” compromise. That would likely keep most people off of Facebook during business hours.
Would someone like OG be willing to work per report or whatever meaningful unit of work is completed, so any idleness would NOT come at the expense of the employer?
What would you guys think of a pay system like that?[/quote]
What you proffer is ridiculous even to the extent related to MY job.
Don’t fess up to my job and what I may know. Again you are IGNORANT.
man… Ponce… you may need to step back and not lash out at me personally and also to not make such statements personally.
You also might want to take what I know and think about it, consider and not just throw it away.
In either case, after you constantly not getting it, you really don’t get it… you don’t.
how simple can it be.
And I would know… apparently not you, this is it.
I say, pay a living wage. Make me pay more.
(yah,… sniffle … sniffle… I do not care if you are family friends with whoever.)
done
$38.00 an hour for someone delivering hot wings. Ponce doesn’t want me to read this post,l but apparently he doesn’t read the thread because I WASN’T THE ONE WHO SAID THEY WERE MAKING $38.00 TO $30.00 AN HOUR. The servers on this thread replied and said they made as much.
Got it Ponce? Why don’t you shut up and read for a bit.
yah… got it… not even my amount but [u]a server here on the boards saying they as server, no more, no less, making $38.00 an hour[/u].
Get it Ponce? Wasn’t me that said they were making $38.00 an hour. Nor did I ever say I was offended. That is you, just you.
I haven’t said servers are not deserving of a higher wage than $2.13 an hour. YOU DO. YOU THINK THAT IS OKAY. They should gamble and HOPE.
I think they deserve more and I WOULD PAY MORE. Do you get that Ponce? Mr. I don’t work in a restaurant, I don’t know anything, but I want to call everyone a hypocrite? You get that right?
got that Ponce?
quit school, quit your job, jump on that. Should be a good and easy job. Gamble and make $38.00 an hour to deliver hot wings.
now… What I actually said. Pay a living wage.
so stupid your whole thing about “OG I don’t want to stress you out.” okay rainman. Ponce, knock it off and don’t be a jerk.
Servers gamble to make less. NO ONE OWES YOU A TIP.
I don’t know what y’all are yackin about in here but I just wanted to say a couple things:
Ponce is the man
and
I heart OG
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
What makes it appropriate specifically besides it just being tradition?
[/quote]
I think that has already been discussed extensively.
[/quote]
Nope… you would be wrong.
examples please.
In this thread: Ignorant Americans thinking you actually have to pay for restrooms in Europe. There are places where you have to toss in coins but it’s not the norm, certainly not in places where you actually spend money like a restaurant or a mall.
In Germany restaurant food is good, the service is flawless and the prices are reasonable. The servers will give you the exact change unless you tell them otherwise (as in, round it up).
This system works just fine. I believe minimum wage is at 6â?¬ and some change for the service sector, so nobody’s starving because of cruel, low-tipping customers.
As for me, I am satisfied with the money I get from my jobs. If I wouldn’t be, I always got the option to quit.
Sure, I wouldn’t mind getting tips from the people I guard or the kids I’m teaching, but I don’t go around demanding it.
Armchair economist here.
It occurs to me that if the costs involved in purchasing a meal were included in the total price (cooks/bus-boy/waiter’s assorted cuts of a specific tip, the cost of the food, the cost of overhead relegated to that specific dish), the overall price of a meal wouldn’t change, it would just shift from the customer to the employer.
No change in price would likely be necessary. Waiters wouldn’t take a pay cut (why should they? they’re doing the same amount of work), customers wouldn’t pay more… in total (why should they, they’re getting the same service and the same food), just the person directly responsible for the salary of the waiter would change from the customer to the employer.
Also, LOL @ Ponce’s argument that other service-based industries are not like waitering and therefore tipping wouldn’t work there, because traffic is non-constant and competition is high. See Banana’s and Push’s arguments- it would help keep the employees accountable for their results, and if the market so demanded, the market’s will must be assuaged. Ponce, Its good to see you posting, but there’s nothing singularly unique to the profession of waitering or the hospitality industry.
Just to put it out there, I realize I am very much a broken record.
My intent with this thread was not to insult servers or other folks who depend on tips.
My thoughts were that you deserve a living wage whether that be $2.13 and hour or $38.00 an hour was the debate.
In any case, I am thankful for the good servers I have had and will have in the future. As the system is to tip, I do tip. I am very conscious of the fact that if I don’t, the server will be paying for part of my meal and I would not do that unless something was really horrible. Which makes me think that I should probably address the manager before I monetarily punish the server.
PONCE! fella… you have my emai. We argue stuff all the time, please feel free to debate with me on email. I do appreciate that you do see things that I miss and have no hesitation to put it to me and make me take notice.
I would never start a “No Tip Tuesday” campaign because I know servers are taxed on a percentage of receipt totals.
phew… okay… so…
just you WAIT… so maybe someday way in the future, no tipping. It could happen. =)
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
again… IGNORANT
That is what I do… I know what restaurants and bars make. Man… give it up already.
You don’t know what I do, don’t say you do.
I can tell you that the majority of servers don’t want a standard wage because they are GAMBLING THAT THEY CAN MAKE MORE.
fine… then gamble that you lose.
So… folks, don’t tip. It is not mandatory, they cannot enforce it, it is up to the employers to pay their employees.
And you have NO IDEA what that majority of people would or would not pay if there were no tipping. I kinda have an idea because we tried that .
Is your family in the restaurant business?
Ponce, smirk and belittle all you want in your posts but until you tell me that you have seen the spreadsheets for a restaurant we kinda may not be on the same playing field.
Ponce… you can PM me if you want to know what I see about actual revenue.
[/quote]
You make this out to be a server conspiracy theory!
If I go to my owner tomorrow and say “You know what? OG is right, I don’t want to gamble on tips anymore! I have here a spreadsheet of my tips and salary over the past 17 months and have found that on average I make approximately 26.72 dollars an hour. I find it unfair that the customer has to pay part of this wage. Given that, I humbly request that you stop allowing me to access tips and instead raise my wage 17.82 an hour please.”
Here is the answer.
“Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-you’re fired.”
If your answer is you could find another job then save it. I don’t have a problem with my job. You do. So I don’t need to go find something else.
So once again. Punish the owner with your lack of business, not the server with your lack of tip.
[/quote]
Nope, I didn’t say that so … comprehension… “FAIL”.
Take it up with your boss that pays you less than a living wage.
[/quote]
This just made my brain explode. I don’t comprehend YOU?!
“I can’t go talk to my boss he’ll fire me.”
“Pfft you don’t understand me. Go talk to your boss.”
Do you proofread this stuff?!
[quote]Otep wrote:
Armchair economist here.
It occurs to me that if the costs involved in purchasing a meal were included in the total price (cooks/bus-boy/waiter’s assorted cuts of a specific tip, the cost of the food, the cost of overhead relegated to that specific dish), the overall price of a meal wouldn’t change, it would just shift from the customer to the employer.
No change in price would likely be necessary. Waiters wouldn’t take a pay cut (why should they? they’re doing the same amount of work), customers wouldn’t pay more… in total (why should they, they’re getting the same service and the same food), just the person directly responsible for the salary of the waiter would change from the customer to the employer.
Also, LOL @ Ponce’s argument that other service-based industries are not like waitering and therefore tipping wouldn’t work there, because traffic is non-constant and competition is high. See Banana’s and Push’s arguments- it would help keep the employees accountable for their results, and if the market so demanded, the market’s will must be assuaged. Ponce, Its good to see you posting, but there’s nothing singularly unique to the profession of waitering or the hospitality industry.[/quote]
Thread winner.
Minor detail to suss out about who takes the salary risk, though - with tipping, it’s the staff; without tipping, it’s the owner (as always, ceteris parabus, so we don’t need to game theory out how the owner would respond to that risk with nightly staffing decisions, or decide for all the customers which is preferable).
I think one’s opinion on tipping depends a lot on whether one believes it is moral extortion (e.g., someone who has been whipped with arguments on the moral necessity to tip because of the low wages) or whether one believes it is a reward for good service and a good customer experience (and who would thus withhold tips if he were dissatisfied).
I try and tip well somewhere where I will keep going again for quality of food/drinks/service. I try to tip well because even though they might be making alot on tips, its still isnt easy living on that kind of salary. Back in Germany the waitresses did’nt have a salary and lived on tips, that was a couple years ago though. The girls at beerfests made 10cents per beer they sold.
I just do it because I think it will help contribute to making another persons life easier through a minimal effort of mine.
When I was a waiter I LOVED tips. In the weekend when I would take my buddies place in the rich area. I’d make 200-300 a weekend from tips alone. In less affluent more like 100-150 but still good money. This barely paid for school, but helped alot.
What about tipping a massage therapist? Is it only for happy endings or do you do it no matter what?
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
[quote]Otep wrote:
Armchair economist here.
It occurs to me that if the costs involved in purchasing a meal were included in the total price (cooks/bus-boy/waiter’s assorted cuts of a specific tip, the cost of the food, the cost of overhead relegated to that specific dish), the overall price of a meal wouldn’t change, it would just shift from the customer to the employer.
No change in price would likely be necessary. Waiters wouldn’t take a pay cut (why should they? they’re doing the same amount of work), customers wouldn’t pay more… in total (why should they, they’re getting the same service and the same food), just the person directly responsible for the salary of the waiter would change from the customer to the employer.
Also, LOL @ Ponce’s argument that other service-based industries are not like waitering and therefore tipping wouldn’t work there, because traffic is non-constant and competition is high. See Banana’s and Push’s arguments- it would help keep the employees accountable for their results, and if the market so demanded, the market’s will must be assuaged. Ponce, Its good to see you posting, but there’s nothing singularly unique to the profession of waitering or the hospitality industry.[/quote]
Thread winner.
Minor detail to suss out about who takes the salary risk, though - with tipping, it’s the staff; without tipping, it’s the owner (as always, ceteris parabus, so we don’t need to game theory out how the owner would respond to that risk with nightly staffing decisions, or decide for all the customers which is preferable).
I think one’s opinion on tipping depends a lot on whether one believes it is moral extortion (e.g., someone who has been whipped with arguments on the moral necessity to tip because of the low wages) or whether one believes it is a reward for good service and a good customer experience (and who would thus withhold tips if he were dissatisfied).[/quote]
If it’s such a “winner” then why does EVERY server-staffed restaurant in the US not use a smart model such as yours? ANSWER - because it doesn’t work, only in your Marxist utopia imagination where you can use the force of the govt to tell me that now, as the owner of a restaurant, I must take a pay cut. Your “winner” is just a winner in your imagination.
RIGHT - on my <20% profit margin I’m gonna eat the cost of paying servers more?! Nope - I’m gonna raise the prices. IF, as you claim, it’s such a good idea why does the entire INDUSTRY not do it?
It’s a COMMISSION job essentially - they’re salespeople - the more they sell the more they make.
In your “theory” all the servers will then bitch because they’ll see me “getting rich” on a Saturday night when they’re “only” making $15 an hour.
TIPS = HUSTLE = HAPPY SERVERS = INCENTIVE
(This past Valentine’s Saturday, one of the better servers here made over $300 in tips. Do you think he’d even show up for a Valentine’s weekend if I told him he’s now getting a flat fee?)
BTW - years and years ago we did a mandatory 15% grat on ALL tables on weekends. After a while we discontinued this BECAUSE THE SERVERS GOT SLOPPY! Too many complaints to the managers that service was not good and the customer refused to tip. Local law states that the customer does not have to tip, even if it’s a posted policy. And if all you have to tip is 15% then usually that’s all you’re gonna tip.
Here’s a report just in from a (very good) server about her shitty tips after lunch:
$5 on a $62 bill (8%)
$2 on a $50 tab (twice) (4%)
thanks to all the good tippers out there who realize they’re kicking in extra to make up for the jackoffs and dummies out there.
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
As for the “poor service argument”
Fine in a no-tip universe a server who works for the bottom line and slacks off because of no tips is bad. Fire them!
But consider this.
The owner is now paying his servers 18 dollars an hour instead of 3 to 8. 1 server now costs him what 3 employees once did. Sure… not problem on Saturday night, since the cash to pay is coming out of the food.
What about Tuesday afternoon?
Maybe that owner is tight for cash and knows sales will be low. Instead of having 3 servers on he gambles and has 1 because his labour cost has skyrocketed but his business on that day is slow.
A minor hockey team decides to go out for dinner after practice and 15 kids and 20 parents show up.
Good luck getting good service. That hockey team won’t come back and that server just quit.[/quote]
Exactly right.
Usually we slightly overstaff for the exact reason of the hockey team. It does happen.
As Ayn Rand said - “wishing won’t make it so.” The industry does tipping because it works. If you think your theory of a flat fee for servers works by all means, raise a few million dollars, open a restaurant, work your ass off 6 days a week, stress like fuck, have no life, barely enough time to hit the gym and then post back here.
And again - for the non-tippers - leave a tip you cheap piece of shit - the servers and bussers and bar tenders make their living from your tip, you no-tipping cum-stain.