Tipping - Good Idea or Bad Idea

[quote]Amiright wrote:

[quote]Hallowed wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]Hallowed wrote:
people who do not tip are assholes.[/quote]

Fuck you running if you want to be a lazy asshole and not read the thread.

Blessed be! =)[/quote]

I did read your thread honey.
and even had I chosen not to… well shoot that’s my perogative isn’t it?

Sorry you don’t like being called an asshole.

Sucks for you.

Dear.
[/quote]

← grabs popcorn
[/quote]

O there’s more now! I decided there’s no point holding back now that she tried me on a third time.

If the prices were raised to reflect what many of you think is good tipping I would still tip more.

I do this because I think they deserve more than 15%, because I know some of you aren’t tipping at all(though I suppose you would be in this other realm) and thirdly because I want to THANK MY SERVER.

One final point, while this may not apply to all of you, I think if you got what you wished for and had a gratuity included in the price of the food at a specific restaurant YOU WOULDN’T GO THERE!

I think “cheap” has several definitions, one of which defines the minority of you guys (thank god) who are somehow OFFENDED that someone might make $x/hr, so to consciously FUCK with that income stream (yet you have no idea the stress of their job and their livelihood isn’t somehow holding you back professionally) you decide that you won’t contribute toward it in any way. No, your malicious ass sitting in the server’s section for an hour enjoying your meal is not somehow “covered” by their meager minimum wage for covering that section.

If you are somehow offended by this system, find some fucking way to change it.

Again, I want to reiterate that what OG stated about the servers’ hourly wages is SKEWED because they serve at a CASINO, where gamblers can be high off a big win and are more likely to tip an obscene amount that they otherwise would not tip when eating at a non-casino place.

Seriously, skills are another reason why some people choose to stick to certain professions. The manual laborer might make far less than a server–keep in mind that we have often compared these two across ALL parts of the country, not Server A and Laborer B in the same Town X, with the same cost of living–but the laborer’s profession might not be considered “entry level” and, with more experience, the laborer may get more lucrative offers. I’m not saying anybody can go out and serve at a nice restaurant (most want 3-5 years of experience), but how much more “skill” do you gain versus the laborer?

Let’s run with the number for the server’s annual salary that I put up earlier: ~$38k (pre-tax)

Renting an apartment in the Bay Area (most well-managed places) generally requires that you make 3x the monthly rent in pre-taxed income. I know because I’ve leased them to people, and 3x is regarded as the industry standard (even though many places might go below this to boost vacancy numbers for the property portfolio).

$38,000/yr x (1yr/12mo) = $3,166/mo
3xrent (qualifcation) = $3,166 / 3 = $1055/mo

I swear to god, that will not get you more than a studio in just about any area where I am. Are you guys REALLY pissed at a server who can barely afford a fucking STUDIO ? Seriously?

That’s the same as a chick shooting down a guy because she thinks he probably gets “enough pussy,” and she wants to bruise his (supposed) ego.

Or intentionally fouling another athlete in a game (and hard) because you’re jealous of their athleticism/fame, and want to put a damper on their career.

Or a cop giving a speeding ticket to a driver in a brand new sports car because the cop wants to “leave a mark” on the ego of the driver, making sure the driver–presumedly well off–doesn’t ever think he/she can “get away” with driving fast, even though he/she might have only been going a few miles over the limit.

I’m not saying the above NEVER happens, but when they do, I’m pretty fucking sure NONE of you would say that recipient “deserved” it.

If the server was bringing in strippers for a house party every Tuesday and porterhouse steaks and lobster for lunch every day to work, maybe you’d have a point in being angry at them for their “income.” Maybe. Again, it’s nobody’s fucking business how someone else lives, and to want to shaft them as a means to flip them off, then YOU are the one with the fucking issue.

Another point for the econ circle jerk that seems to be going on:

You guys understand that the value of a job is NOT solely defined by its hourly rate, right? You understand that CAREER POTENTIAL is another dimension that is NOT determined by the starting hourly rate?

A manual laborer might make $10/hr to start with, but they could end up making $30-40/hr, owning a business and hiring other laborers, or just branching out/off in that same damn field and making progressively more income over the years.

A server might just be a really good server, but what’s the “career potential” of serving? Serving at another restaurant? At a fine dining restaurant? Yes, managing might be an option, but the career potential is severely limited by comparison.

How does each position look on a resume? What’s the VALUE of each position on a resume or in terms of overall reputation to a future employer? Again, neither of these can be determined by simply looking at hourly wage.

I would argue the “value” in the manual labor falls outside of its (starting) hourly rate.

Again, we are not collectively giving out “financial aid” to servers/bartenders and trying to determine what they might “need” to get by on.

[quote]saveski wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:
waitress station - still smiling even though they get stiffed[/quote]

Well, if you would man up and take responsibility for paying them, they wouldn’t be getting stiffed.

You are the owner right? Do the right thing, you bum.

edit: Kudos on the clenliness. That is very nice to see.
[/quote]

Are you one of those no-tipping douches we’re talking about? Remember, next time you go out - say to the waitress - I’M A NO-TIPPING DICK.
[/quote]

No, actually I do the 20% standard thing. Nice assumption though. I’m also pretty laid back when it comes to the standard of service too. I understand that when th place is jumping and there are parties of 12 getting their colostomy bags in a bunch over the taste of water that the orders may take a little time.

If the service is actually bad enough to not tip, I just skip the unpleasantries and go straight to the manager. That way there is no doubt as to whether or not I’m a cheapskate or unhappy, or what ever else may be bothering someone.

I strongly believe in weeding out the weak quickly. As a manager or owner, you probably don’t like or tolerate sandbags who bring down the morale and up the workload on the rest of your crew either.

Just doing my part.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]JackDanials wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
I hate tipping. I do not get tipped at my job and I do service other people. [/quote]

And by service you mean???[/quote]

Seriously?

do you think waiters and waitresses are sucking dick?

[/quote]

That might get there pay up to 40 an hour.[/quote]

I don’t see why they couldn’t get the $200 hr or more that an attorney gets.[/quote]

Actually, at a few places that do parties of 10-12 with entres ranging from 120-200/person, that could totally happen.

Last time I was at The Melting Pot, my wife and I plus her boss, total came to about $500.00. Tip was $100.00. Two more tables like ours (and there were more than 2 like ours) and the waiter easily cleared 200 in an hour.

When people start uncorking bottles at $2-300 a piece, I’m sure our bill+tip gets dwarfed by comparison.

[quote]MementoMori wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
lol @ being offended at “unskilled labour” - take an econ course that’s how they are defined, it’s nothing personal[/quote]

I know its technical definition. Some people are changing the context of it however.[/quote]

Like most crap taught in economics it is often inaccurate.

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Just to put it out there

fuck off if you think anyone here is stating they don’t want to tip to be cheap. Fuck your stupid ass already.

As I and others have said, we would pay MORE> more you stupid assholes, to not tip and have your CHEAP employers pay a living wage

so go suck dick before you say stupid stuff about being cheap.

If you can’t understand get your stupid ass to a tutor.

whew… just checking cuz some folks posting are in need of direction.

[/quote]

This shows a gross misunderstanding of business and economics. It is the CUSTOMER that always supplies the money to pay the wage. Not the employer.

Calling the employer cheap while they are risking their capital to run a restaurant thus giving a server opportunity to hustle and make some money is just plain ignorant.

[quote]Hallowed wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]Hallowed wrote:
people who do not tip are assholes.[/quote]

Fuck you running if you want to be a lazy asshole and not read the thread.

Blessed be! =)[/quote]

I did read your thread honey.
and even had I chosen not to… well shoot that’s my perogative isn’t it?

You’ve always been bizarrely aggressively bitchy towards me.

The first time you quoted me on TNation you reprimanded me for" fixing" a quote. You were extremely rude and condescending about it.

In the ask anything thread I’m pretty sure you called me a retard.

And now you’re blessing me with" fuck yourself" and" lazy asshole"

What exactly is your problem with me OG?
I haven’t noticed these bitch maneuvers directed at anyone else.

For all I know, maybe you ARE a cunt to other people too. Either way, third times a charm so i’ll suggest that perhaps you are the one that needs a good fucking. From yourself or elsewhere your disposition could use some improvement.

Dear.

[/quote]

You aren’t that special. Apparently I am as you have memorized my every post. I’m okay with my disposition. Works for me.

It is good to be king.

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:
I would be happier with the situation if the owners and managers of restaurants were responsible for paying the full wage of their employees.

Alternatively, I think it’d be cool if I could engage in financial blackmail with the parents of my students, for example, giving the students inaccurate or badly mangled tutelage if their parents didn’t tip me enough to educate the youngsters properly.[/quote]

I checked out of this thread long ago - but had to comment here.

You’re a teacher? I hope you’re being sarcastic but if not then you’re just a douchebag.

Last time I checked teachers were salaried and not tipped.

I’ve chimed in to this discussion as the owner of a large 250-seat restaurant and my facts just seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Just makes me realize how stupid people are in defending their own beliefs CONTRARY TO THE FACTS AND REALITY.

Don’t listen to me though - I’ve only got 60 employees and 25 servers on staff and deal with this shit every minute of every day.

You college kids are WAY smarter than me.

[/quote]

Wait, so you’re okay with tipping wait-staff, bartenders, barbers, taxi-cab drivers, the guy who hands out towels in the restroom, bussers, doormen, floormen, janitors, salesmen, computer repair technicians, personal trainers, impersonal trainers, and the guy that clips your movie tickets in the theater, but balk at tipping teachers?

Woah. What gives?

I mean, if all the above professions can expect a tip in addition to what their miserly employer is paying them, why not teachers? Don’t you expect good service from your child’s teacher? How are we to know which students merit the most of our time and energy if we don’t regularly receive tips from customers that value our services?[/quote]

If teachers weren’t so overpaid and overpensioned for their part time babysitting jobs and showed real interest in the students perhaps parents would tip them.

Teaching is a fine example of people being too comfortable in their jobs and not feeling like they have to hustle. If they worked for tips perhaps the outcome would be better.

The US model certainly isn’t working the way it is.

[quote]MementoMori wrote:
If the prices were raised to reflect what many of you think is good tipping I would still tip more.

I do this because I think they deserve more than 15%, because I know some of you aren’t tipping at all(though I suppose you would be in this other realm) and thirdly because I want to THANK MY SERVER.

One final point, while this may not apply to all of you, I think if you got what you wished for and had a gratuity included in the price of the food at a specific restaurant YOU WOULDN’T GO THERE![/quote]

Nah, a lot of the All You Can Eat Sushi places here have a gratuity fee built into the bill. I still go.

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Just to put it out there

fuck off if you think anyone here is stating they don’t want to tip to be cheap. Fuck your stupid ass already.

As I and others have said, we would pay MORE> more you stupid assholes, to not tip and have your CHEAP employers pay a living wage

so go suck dick before you say stupid stuff about being cheap.

If you can’t understand get your stupid ass to a tutor.

whew… just checking cuz some folks posting are in need of direction.

[/quote]

This shows a gross misunderstanding of business and economics. It is the CUSTOMER that always supplies the money to pay the wage. Not the employer.

Calling the employer cheap while they are risking their capital to run a restaurant thus giving a server opportunity to hustle and make some money is just plain ignorant. [/quote]

It isn’t when it is an optional wage. You do understand that right?

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:
I would be happier with the situation if the owners and managers of restaurants were responsible for paying the full wage of their employees.

Alternatively, I think it’d be cool if I could engage in financial blackmail with the parents of my students, for example, giving the students inaccurate or badly mangled tutelage if their parents didn’t tip me enough to educate the youngsters properly.[/quote]

I checked out of this thread long ago - but had to comment here.

You’re a teacher? I hope you’re being sarcastic but if not then you’re just a douchebag.

Last time I checked teachers were salaried and not tipped.

I’ve chimed in to this discussion as the owner of a large 250-seat restaurant and my facts just seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Just makes me realize how stupid people are in defending their own beliefs CONTRARY TO THE FACTS AND REALITY.

Don’t listen to me though - I’ve only got 60 employees and 25 servers on staff and deal with this shit every minute of every day.

You college kids are WAY smarter than me.

[/quote]

Wait, so you’re okay with tipping wait-staff, bartenders, barbers, taxi-cab drivers, the guy who hands out towels in the restroom, bussers, doormen, floormen, janitors, salesmen, computer repair technicians, personal trainers, impersonal trainers, and the guy that clips your movie tickets in the theater, but balk at tipping teachers?

Woah. What gives?

I mean, if all the above professions can expect a tip in addition to what their miserly employer is paying them, why not teachers? Don’t you expect good service from your child’s teacher? How are we to know which students merit the most of our time and energy if we don’t regularly receive tips from customers that value our services?[/quote]

Teaching is a fine example of people being too comfortable in their jobs and not feeling like they have to hustle. If they worked for tips perhaps the outcome would be better.

[/quote]

No. It would just cause teachers to cheat for their students on big tests. It happened in the Chicago School System. The teachers who had kids that did well would receive pay raises, the ones who had kids that performed poorly would receive pay cuts and sometimes even lose their jobs.

Economist Steven Levitt discovered it and wrote about it in his book Freakonomics

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]MementoMori wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
lol @ being offended at “unskilled labour” - take an econ course that’s how they are defined, it’s nothing personal[/quote]

I know its technical definition. Some people are changing the context of it however.[/quote]

Like most crap taught in economics it is often inaccurate.[/quote]

lol - how much have you studied economics?

If this were true why do banks hire economists to perform forecasts and make high level decisions?

Yes, assumptions are made to make models work, but your statement is untrue.

How much economics have you studied?

Big Banana what is your educational background?

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Big Banana what is your educational background?[/quote]

Not to get too deep but I have a few degrees in hard sciences and engineering. I have taken a few economics courses and have little respect for it. It is a soft science and no one agrees on a damned thing. We have the best economic minds running our system right into the ground.

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:
I would be happier with the situation if the owners and managers of restaurants were responsible for paying the full wage of their employees.

Alternatively, I think it’d be cool if I could engage in financial blackmail with the parents of my students, for example, giving the students inaccurate or badly mangled tutelage if their parents didn’t tip me enough to educate the youngsters properly.[/quote]

I checked out of this thread long ago - but had to comment here.

You’re a teacher? I hope you’re being sarcastic but if not then you’re just a douchebag.

Last time I checked teachers were salaried and not tipped.

I’ve chimed in to this discussion as the owner of a large 250-seat restaurant and my facts just seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Just makes me realize how stupid people are in defending their own beliefs CONTRARY TO THE FACTS AND REALITY.

Don’t listen to me though - I’ve only got 60 employees and 25 servers on staff and deal with this shit every minute of every day.

You college kids are WAY smarter than me.

[/quote]

Wait, so you’re okay with tipping wait-staff, bartenders, barbers, taxi-cab drivers, the guy who hands out towels in the restroom, bussers, doormen, floormen, janitors, salesmen, computer repair technicians, personal trainers, impersonal trainers, and the guy that clips your movie tickets in the theater, but balk at tipping teachers?

Woah. What gives?

I mean, if all the above professions can expect a tip in addition to what their miserly employer is paying them, why not teachers? Don’t you expect good service from your child’s teacher? How are we to know which students merit the most of our time and energy if we don’t regularly receive tips from customers that value our services?[/quote]

Teaching is a fine example of people being too comfortable in their jobs and not feeling like they have to hustle. If they worked for tips perhaps the outcome would be better.

[/quote]

No. It would just cause teachers to cheat for their students on big tests. It happened in the Chicago School System. The teachers who had kids that did well would receive pay raises, the ones who had kids that performed poorly would receive pay cuts and sometimes even lose their jobs.

Economist Steven Levitt discovered it and wrote about it in his book Freakonomics

[/quote]

So many flaws with the Chicago experiment it is not worth evaluation.

Kids in Africa are getting a better education with nothing but a severely underpaid teacher and a chalkboard than American kids . Don’t make this thread about American teachers. I embarrassed how far behind my country is.

.

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Just to put it out there

fuck off if you think anyone here is stating they don’t want to tip to be cheap. Fuck your stupid ass already.

As I and others have said, we would pay MORE> more you stupid assholes, to not tip and have your CHEAP employers pay a living wage

so go suck dick before you say stupid stuff about being cheap.

If you can’t understand get your stupid ass to a tutor.

whew… just checking cuz some folks posting are in need of direction.

[/quote]

This shows a gross misunderstanding of business and economics. It is the CUSTOMER that always supplies the money to pay the wage. Not the employer.

Calling the employer cheap while they are risking their capital to run a restaurant thus giving a server opportunity to hustle and make some money is just plain ignorant. [/quote]

It isn’t when it is an optional wage. You do understand that right?
[/quote]

Apparently more than you based on your ill informed emotionally driven rant.

You are jealous that servers make more money than you do at the casino. I would bet they hustle and you sit on your ass.

If I had a penny for every engineer I know complaining that the steelworker makes the same money they do I could retire rich. They fail to realize that the steelworker has 20 years experience and risks life and limb doing a difficult job while the engineer often contributes little to the success of the project as their work is easily replaceable.

Jealousy is an ugly thing.

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Big Banana what is your educational background?[/quote]

We have the best economic minds running our system right into the ground.[/quote]

You can’t honestly believe this.

Not even going to bother.

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:
I would be happier with the situation if the owners and managers of restaurants were responsible for paying the full wage of their employees.

Alternatively, I think it’d be cool if I could engage in financial blackmail with the parents of my students, for example, giving the students inaccurate or badly mangled tutelage if their parents didn’t tip me enough to educate the youngsters properly.[/quote]

I checked out of this thread long ago - but had to comment here.

You’re a teacher? I hope you’re being sarcastic but if not then you’re just a douchebag.

Last time I checked teachers were salaried and not tipped.

I’ve chimed in to this discussion as the owner of a large 250-seat restaurant and my facts just seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Just makes me realize how stupid people are in defending their own beliefs CONTRARY TO THE FACTS AND REALITY.

Don’t listen to me though - I’ve only got 60 employees and 25 servers on staff and deal with this shit every minute of every day.

You college kids are WAY smarter than me.

[/quote]

Wait, so you’re okay with tipping wait-staff, bartenders, barbers, taxi-cab drivers, the guy who hands out towels in the restroom, bussers, doormen, floormen, janitors, salesmen, computer repair technicians, personal trainers, impersonal trainers, and the guy that clips your movie tickets in the theater, but balk at tipping teachers?

Woah. What gives?

I mean, if all the above professions can expect a tip in addition to what their miserly employer is paying them, why not teachers? Don’t you expect good service from your child’s teacher? How are we to know which students merit the most of our time and energy if we don’t regularly receive tips from customers that value our services?[/quote]

Teaching is a fine example of people being too comfortable in their jobs and not feeling like they have to hustle. If they worked for tips perhaps the outcome would be better.

[/quote]

No. It would just cause teachers to cheat for their students on big tests. It happened in the Chicago School System. The teachers who had kids that did well would receive pay raises, the ones who had kids that performed poorly would receive pay cuts and sometimes even lose their jobs.

Economist Steven Levitt discovered it and wrote about it in his book Freakonomics

[/quote]

So many flaws with the Chicago experiment it is not worth evaluation.

[/quote]

Proof? Never heard this before.