^ Push I tried this yesterday. Again not going to work. We all just have to accept he knows what he is talking about and the rest of us are just ignorant.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Ok, how about this. You are correct that you will most likely receive the same service whether you choose to tip or not. However, those are the actions of 1 person. What if everyone chose to do this (as you seem to be advocating)?
Wages of servers would go down drastically, resulting in poor service. This is economics. You could argue that restaurant owners would be forced to pay more to keep good servers and that argument may be correct.
[/quote]
I would argue that the net result would likely be the same. Meal prices would find their equilibrium and servers would make what the market dictates, the goods ones would be paid more as they increase revenue for the owner, while the poor ones would still lag behind.
Correct.
And this is where the disagreement starts. The only reason we tip regularly is because of a fairly recently contrived custom. When I come into the restaurant, I am bringing my business to the establishment, not a particular server. I contend it is not my responsibility to make sure they do there job properly nor is it my responsibility to make sure they are compensated properly. These responsibilities fall on the shoulders of management. In any other business, this is how it works and there has been no compelling reason as to why it would not work in the restaurant industry.
I am not asking to micro-manage the restaurant’s employees. I don’t know where the money goes when I tip, I don’t know how much work the server actually had to do to take my order and bring me my food, and I don’t appreciate being put in the position where I must guess what the service is worth based on limited information I know about the restaurant and what the market is actually valuing the service at, all while being pressured by a society led to believe that this makes sense and an industry that just eats it up and regurgitates it because they are profiting, let alone the fear of having my food tampered with if I don’t leave a high enough tip the next time around. I don’t want to be dragged down with other consumers because of their gullibility.
If somebody would just come out and say that the system doesn’t not make sense, yet we do it because it is a custom that we enjoy, continue, or participate in for any other reason, I could at least respect them for being intellectually honest even if I think the custom makes little sense. The problems really start to arise when we go back and forth with those in the industry trying to convice us that this is the only way the business is economically viable.
Thank you lanky for an intelligent response.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]tedro wrote:
Saveski, the so-called restaurant owner, is the one that claimed it would cost him $30/hr to hire a server who did not receive tips. It’s been thrown around for two reasons. 1) I don’t think anybody really believes this to be true…[/quote]
I see. I see. I see we have a conundrum. Who are we to believe when it comes to ascertaining the facts here?
Witness A: Sir Saveski, restaurateur who runs a rather large operation with many servers on staff and has done so for many years.
Witness B: Sir Tedro, ?, don’t know what he does but we can safely infer he is not running a restaurant and never has.
Gentlemen and women of the jury, I leave it in your hands.[/quote]
By all means, believe what you want to believe. If everyone else lurking this thread honestly wants to take his word at face value and believe he’s really going to have pay $30/hr than so be it. I have no argument to dissuade such gullibility. But at the same time you know full well that without tipping the market would still reach it’s equilibrium, so quit pretending this is the only viable business method.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
…and for those of you who don’t pack the unseemly bulge in your panties as evidenced in the previous pic…please see the above…[/quote]
Mmm! Y’know what gets me most about that pic? The bit of red on the toenail.
[quote]tedro wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Ok, how about this. You are correct that you will most likely receive the same service whether you choose to tip or not. However, those are the actions of 1 person. What if everyone chose to do this (as you seem to be advocating)?
Wages of servers would go down drastically, resulting in poor service. This is economics. You could argue that restaurant owners would be forced to pay more to keep good servers and that argument may be correct.
[/quote]
I would argue that the net result would likely be the same. Meal prices would find their equilibrium and servers would make what the market dictates, the goods ones would be paid more as they increase revenue for the owner, while the poor ones would still lag behind.
Correct.
And this is where the disagreement starts. The only reason we tip regularly is because of a fairly recently contrived custom. When I come into the restaurant, I am bringing my business to the establishment, not a particular server. I contend it is not my responsibility to make sure they do there job properly nor is it my responsibility to make sure they are compensated properly. These responsibilities fall on the shoulders of management. In any other business, this is how it works and there has been no compelling reason as to why it would not work in the restaurant industry.
I am not asking to micro-manage the restaurant’s employees. I don’t know where the money goes when I tip, I don’t know how much work the server actually had to do to take my order and bring me my food, and I don’t appreciate being put in the position where I must guess what the service is worth based on limited information I know about the restaurant and what the market is actually valuing the service at, all while being pressured by a society led to believe that this makes sense and an industry that just eats it up and regurgitates it because they are profiting, let alone the fear of having my food tampered with if I don’t leave a high enough tip the next time around. I don’t want to be dragged down with other consumers because of their gullibility.
If somebody would just come out and say that the system doesn’t not make sense, yet we do it because it is a custom that we enjoy, continue, or participate in for any other reason, I could at least respect them for being intellectually honest even if I think the custom makes little sense. The problems really start to arise when we go back and forth with those in the industry trying to convice us that this is the only way the business is economically viable.
Thank you lanky for an intelligent response.
[/quote]
The economic viability that pays its servers more while not accepting tips doesn’t concern me. I’m sure it’s possible (as has been shown in other countries) but it may NOT be possible in the US, as it’s not our custom. Either way, my argument is not dependent upon economic viability.
I would argue that as a market consumer we all follow what is customary in that particular market. All markets are dictated by customs. There are countries where people haggle with every purchase they make, as that is their custom. In the US it is custom to tip servers and it’s only fair that we abide by that custom. It doesn’t mean it makes more or less sense one way or the other, as you’ve stated a market equilibrium (net result) will be the same either way. If anything, it gives the consumer more power over the price he/she is willing to pay so long as the price paid is reflective of the service received.
Now that I’ve admitted that the tipping system is based on customs (as all markets are), will you admit that it’s not fair to the servers to not abide by that custom? Or if you decide not to abide by the custom, at least telling them beforehand would be fair?
Btw, I’m with Push, I have no hard feelings towards anyone here, this is actually a pretty civil TN discussion.
[quote]saveski wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]saveski wrote:
I just don’t like the pricks that fuck over a server JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN.
[/quote]
You mean like the guy that only pays them $2.65 an hour?[/quote]
Einstein, how are they getting fucked over when they’re pulling in $100-$300 a night?
Sorry, but that’s the GOING RATE FOR SERVERS. Your silly premise is that I pay them $30 an hour - and then people like you won’t be able to go out to eat BECAUSE YOU CAN’T AFFORD IT.
Econ 101 - will the little kids stay out of this please?
[/quote]
Read the above - I never said I would have to pay my servers $30 an hour to be competitive.
On a good Saturday at our place a strong server will pull in close to $300 in tips for approx. 10 hours of work and not all those hours are busy hours. With the nominal $2.65 that’s $32.65 per hour.
In the US and A we TIP OUR SERVERS. TIP BARTENDERS. TIP THE SKYCAP AND CABBIES. YOUR HAIRCUTTER. IT’S THE WAY IT’S DONE. Assholes don’t tip. The rest of us will make up for you.
We have a separate carry-out area with a tipjar. It’s cool how some people are so generous even in carry-out where there’s no need to tip as the Carry Out kids make more than minimum wage. Someone will throw a $10 bill on a $40 carryout in there because my carry out people are FAST and very courteous. Once in a while I’ll tell a customer - “hey, you tip better than some of these lowlifes who come in here and want three lemons so they can turn their water into lemonade. They steal the silverware. Steal entire bottles of BBQ sauce. Make a hot mess and are dicks to the servers and complain to the manager about nothing.”
Off to work at my “so-called” restaurant.
Just tip your fuckin’ server please or go to carryout and STFU.
Saveski - not to completely throw you under the bus, but you once said something about watching a 170 lb high school kid raw bench 450 pounds (or something along those lines). We’re stilling waiting on that article you promised to prove it.
Not that I think you’re wrong on this particular subject, but your claims of owning a restaurant are suspect.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Now that I’ve admitted that the tipping system is based on customs (as all markets are), will you admit that it’s not fair to the servers to not abide by that custom?
[/quote]
I don’t agree that all markets are dictated by customs, I would say actually (at least in this country) very few are, and the number continues to drop due mostly to online shopping.
I don’t think it’s fair for a server to truly make $2/hr, but I can’t fault the consumer in this case because it is not their responsibility to make sure the server is adequately compensated. I don’t go to a restaurant to make a business transaction with the server, I usually don’t even know a thing about them. I go to transact with the establishment. I am a mere third party to the transaction between the owner and the employee.
Futhermore, as I’ve stated before, I don’t even know where the tip is going! In my experience tip-sharing is becoming more and more common, especially in chain restaurants, in which case every argument gets thrown out the window and my tip is nothing but an extra revenue stream for the restaurant.
That’s actually not a bad idea, except I think it should be the manager that is told, not the server. Actually, as I think about, I may just tell the manager at the end and let them address their own issues.
[quote]saveski wrote:
YOUR HAIRCUTTER.
[/quote]
My barber won’t accept tips.
^ So if you go out on a date do you make her tip after dinner?
[quote]DJHT wrote:
^ So if you go out on a date do you make her tip after dinner? [/quote]
Every time.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
I’ll say it again, there is no way a server is worth $30 an hour. Period.
If you’d actually care to show me otherwise, go ahead and do so.
[/quote]
What you’re saying is the DEFINITION of being on a “high horse” - you’re saying that people shouldn’t get $x per hour for a profession based on how YOU feel about it, and that’s bull shit.
It’s rarely a consistent $30/hr and even then they still have to tip out. Again, get off your high fucking horse (maybe both you and the horse are high).
Here, I did some quick math for you idiots:
Avg server wage (consistent) per 5.5 HOUR SHIFT (normal shift), from a collection of server-friends I’ve spoken to – $23/hr
Avg server works 6 days a week if they’re experienced and been there a while, because they want to make as much tip as possible
Avg of 51 weeks a year worked
23 x 5.5 x 6 x 51 = $38,709
If working only 5 days a week…
23 x 5.5 x 5 x 51 - $32,257
Now…is that seriously so much money to you some of you that you are simply APPALLED such that you want to make sure the server doesn’t come close to that?
That’s what this argument is boiling down to: “I don’t think FEEL they should be making that much…”
Well, they’re not making that much to begin with. What people make per year is none of your goddamn business. Why that has an impact on whether or not you TIP (which is the basis of a lot of servers’ incomes) is absurd and frankly disgusting.
Bunch of egotistical fucks.[/quote]
Also, everyone arguing to let the market work has it right, and the current status quo is what the market has dictated. If less and less people decide to tip, the # of servers will drop and restaurant owners will be forced to pay a higher wage and food prices go up. At the end of the day, equilibrium is reached one way or another. [/quote]
But the thing is there is information asymmetry in the market. If the average person knew how much these people made with their tips, I would argue people would tip them less. Much less.
[/quote]
…And then less people would be willing to be servers (see above for what happens after that). Some people are only servers BECAUSE they make that much. [/quote]
The market has reached an equilibrium but there is market inefficiency.
Currently, they get paid a wage well above the average going rate for a non-skilled labourer. Even If tipping was reduced I would argue non-skill labourers from other markets would move in to make up for people who do not want to work at the new wage. Even if their wage dropped to say $25/hour I’m sure people pumping gas for $12/hour would have no problem making up for the loss of employees.
[/quote]
So why don’t the $12/hour gas pumping employees flock to serving as waiters right now when the pay is (supposedly) $30/hour? And will those converted gas pumpers be good enough as servers to still make $30/hour?
[/quote]
I explained this earlier with the term information asymmetry - the average person has no idea a server makes $30+/hour. If this were common knowledge I think the supply in this market would increase and people would tip less. I don’t know about you but before this thread I would’ve guessed with tips their wages worked out to no more than $20/hour MAX.
And yeah not everyone could cut it as a server but by and large unskilled labour in pretty darn interchangeable.
[/quote]
ARRRRRRRRRGH! They make 30 dollars an hour Saturday night between 6 and 9 you miser!!!
Then Tuesday afternoon they spend THREE hours sitting in a booth paying for food and drinks out of boredome, wasting their day until they’ve heard they are cut and have to go home down 15 dollars plus gas!
They average less than 20 dollars an hour if it were a 40 hour a week schedule!
Why are you tipping to determine someone’s annual income?! You tip because they SERVED you.
I’m tired of repeating this point, but one more time.
SERVERS/BARTENDERS DO NOT MAKE 30 DOLLARS AN HOUR ACROSS A WORK WEEK! And if they come close it is because they work in the busiest spot in their city and are of the HIGHEST seniority and are lucky fucks! (I’ll admit I’m fortunate enough to be one such person)
[quote]tedro wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Now that I’ve admitted that the tipping system is based on customs (as all markets are), will you admit that it’s not fair to the servers to not abide by that custom?
[/quote]
I don’t agree that all markets are dictated by customs, I would say actually (at least in this country) very few are, and the number continues to drop due mostly to online shopping.
I don’t think it’s fair for a server to truly make $2/hr, but I can’t fault the consumer in this case because it is not their responsibility to make sure the server is adequately compensated. I don’t go to a restaurant to make a business transaction with the server, I usually don’t even know a thing about them. I go to transact with the establishment. I am a mere third party to the transaction between the owner and the employee.
Futhermore, as I’ve stated before, I don’t even know where the tip is going! In my experience tip-sharing is becoming more and more common, especially in chain restaurants, in which case every argument gets thrown out the window and my tip is nothing but an extra revenue stream for the restaurant.
That’s actually not a bad idea, except I think it should be the manager that is told, not the server. Actually, as I think about, I may just tell the manager at the end and let them address their own issues.
[/quote]
I just quoted you at random.
Here is your argument in a nut shell.
I don’t tip because I’m better than all of you. I don’t tip because that 18 year old server is a retard for working at a restaurant. I don’t tip because it will change the world. I don’t tip because I must punish the evil owners who subjugate my wallet.
You. Are. A. Hero.
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
I’ll say it again, there is no way a server is worth $30 an hour. Period.
If you’d actually care to show me otherwise, go ahead and do so.
[/quote]
What you’re saying is the DEFINITION of being on a “high horse” - you’re saying that people shouldn’t get $x per hour for a profession based on how YOU feel about it, and that’s bull shit.
It’s rarely a consistent $30/hr and even then they still have to tip out. Again, get off your high fucking horse (maybe both you and the horse are high).
Here, I did some quick math for you idiots:
Avg server wage (consistent) per 5.5 HOUR SHIFT (normal shift), from a collection of server-friends I’ve spoken to – $23/hr
Avg server works 6 days a week if they’re experienced and been there a while, because they want to make as much tip as possible
Avg of 51 weeks a year worked
23 x 5.5 x 6 x 51 = $38,709
If working only 5 days a week…
23 x 5.5 x 5 x 51 - $32,257
Now…is that seriously so much money to you some of you that you are simply APPALLED such that you want to make sure the server doesn’t come close to that?
That’s what this argument is boiling down to: “I don’t think FEEL they should be making that much…”
Well, they’re not making that much to begin with. What people make per year is none of your goddamn business. Why that has an impact on whether or not you TIP (which is the basis of a lot of servers’ incomes) is absurd and frankly disgusting.
Bunch of egotistical fucks.[/quote]
Also, everyone arguing to let the market work has it right, and the current status quo is what the market has dictated. If less and less people decide to tip, the # of servers will drop and restaurant owners will be forced to pay a higher wage and food prices go up. At the end of the day, equilibrium is reached one way or another. [/quote]
But the thing is there is information asymmetry in the market. If the average person knew how much these people made with their tips, I would argue people would tip them less. Much less.
[/quote]
…And then less people would be willing to be servers (see above for what happens after that). Some people are only servers BECAUSE they make that much. [/quote]
The market has reached an equilibrium but there is market inefficiency.
Currently, they get paid a wage well above the average going rate for a non-skilled labourer. Even If tipping was reduced I would argue non-skill labourers from other markets would move in to make up for people who do not want to work at the new wage. Even if their wage dropped to say $25/hour I’m sure people pumping gas for $12/hour would have no problem making up for the loss of employees.
[/quote]
So why don’t the $12/hour gas pumping employees flock to serving as waiters right now when the pay is (supposedly) $30/hour? And will those converted gas pumpers be good enough as servers to still make $30/hour?
[/quote]
I explained this earlier with the term information asymmetry - the average person has no idea a server makes $30+/hour. If this were common knowledge I think the supply in this market would increase and people would tip less. I don’t know about you but before this thread I would’ve guessed with tips their wages worked out to no more than $20/hour MAX.
And yeah not everyone could cut it as a server but by and large unskilled labour in pretty darn interchangeable.
[/quote]
ARRRRRRRRRGH! They make 30 dollars an hour Saturday night between 6 and 9 you miser!!!
Then Tuesday afternoon they spend THREE hours sitting in a booth paying for food and drinks out of boredome, wasting their day until they’ve heard they are cut and have to go home down 15 dollars plus gas!
They average less than 20 dollars an hour if it were a 40 hour a week schedule!
Why are you tipping to determine someone’s annual income?! You tip because they SERVED you.
I’m tired of repeating this point, but one more time.
SERVERS/BARTENDERS DO NOT MAKE 30 DOLLARS AN HOUR ACROSS A WORK WEEK! And if they come close it is because they work in the busiest spot in their city and are of the HIGHEST seniority and are lucky fucks! (I’ll admit I’m fortunate enough to be one such person)[/quote]
Wow there are places in Ottawa that get that busy? What are the best places to go in your city?
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
Who are all of you to put monetary worth on other’s efforts. [/quote]
The one with the wallet motherfucker!
Who are you to question the generosity of a stranger?
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Saveski - not to completely throw you under the bus, but you once said something about watching a 170 lb high school kid raw bench 450 pounds (or something along those lines). We’re stilling waiting on that article you promised to prove it.
Not that I think you’re wrong on this particular subject, but your claims of owning a restaurant are suspect.
;)[/quote]
That’s correct - KC Clouse was the kid’s name. St. Mary’s Prep in Orchard Lake MICH. He was 175 and benched over 500. I tried to get that article on him but would have to go to the library. They did a full page newspaper article in the mid-80s on him but the Oakland Press hasn’t digitized their newspapers from the 80s. I asked his brother to get a copy of it a long time ago but dropped the ball.