Tipping - Good Idea or Bad Idea

Off Topic
301

[quote]tedro wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:
Asking a business owner how he came up with his costing is silly. He knows because he lives it. He has his head in his books every night. He knows his costs and what his waiters take home.[/quote]

So then I am supposed to take his word at face value merely based on his status? No wonder this stupid tipping thing has gone on so long and continues to grow.[/quote]

If you don’t want to take his word for it do your own research. Do you really think he is going to open his books to you?

302

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
People refer to servers as unskilled labour because there is no education required to perform the tasks in the job. It has NOTHING to do with how hard job is.[/quote]

I have been to some restaurants where the wait staff is very skilled. Memorizing extensive menus and wine lists. Getting the order right without writing anything down. Keeping the table free of bread crumbs and dirty dishes. Being helpful and unobtrusive.

These are skills and are they are deservedly well compensated.[/quote]

Let me clarify: no FORMAL education. You don’t have to go to school to be a server[/quote]

Actors, machinists and Bill Gates have no formal education. They are still skilled.[/quote]

Bill Gates has honorary degrees, actors go to school (drama major) and machinists have certifications
[/quote]

Honorary degree is not an education, actors don’t need to go to college and many machinists work and learn their trade before they get any certification. Many machinists and welders do not even get certified.

[/quote]

Using Bill Gates as an example of unskilled labour is absurd. The guy is a self made billionaire, and only dropped out of university to start a company that would eventually make him billions. Not exactly in line with what we’re talking about.

Where I live to become a machinists or welder you have to go to school, pass exams and apprentice under someone who knows what they’re doing. The standards in your country may be different.

303

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
People refer to servers as unskilled labour because there is no education required to perform the tasks in the job. It has NOTHING to do with how hard job is.[/quote]

I have been to some restaurants where the wait staff is very skilled. Memorizing extensive menus and wine lists. Getting the order right without writing anything down. Keeping the table free of bread crumbs and dirty dishes. Being helpful and unobtrusive.

These are skills and are they are deservedly well compensated.[/quote]

Let me clarify: no FORMAL education. You don’t have to go to school to be a server[/quote]

Actors, machinists and Bill Gates have no formal education. They are still skilled.[/quote]

Bill Gates has honorary degrees, actors go to school (drama major) and machinists have certifications
[/quote]

Honorary degree is not an education, actors don’t need to go to college and many machinists work and learn their trade before they get any certification. Many machinists and welders do not even get certified.

[/quote]

Using Bill Gates as an example of unskilled labour is absurd. The guy is a self made billionaire, and only dropped out of university to start a company that would eventually make him billions. Not exactly in line with what we’re talking about.

Where I live to become a machinists or welder you have to go to school, pass exams and apprentice under someone who knows what they’re doing. The standards in your country may be different.

[/quote]

I am American and have worked in Canada. You are not quite correct. There are hundreds if not thousands of machinists, millwrights, plumbers and electricians working in Canadian industry that did not have to go to school or pass exams for the work they do. Often times mere inspection by a someone certified is more than sufficient. Same as in every other country I have been in.

These are skilled positions learned on the job.

304

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I explained this earlier with the term information asymmetry - the average person has no idea a server makes $30+/hour. If this were common knowledge I think the supply in this market would increase and people would tip less. I don’t know about you but before this thread I would’ve guessed with tips their wages worked out to no more than $20/hour MAX.

And yeah not everyone could cut it as a server but by and large unskilled labour in pretty darn interchangeable.

[/quote]

Why does everyone keep throwing out $30 an hour? MementoMori isn’t a server, he said that himself. A server in a nice, busy restaurant on a friday or saturday night might break $30 an hour with tips. However, get that same server working on a tuesday afternoon when it’s really slow and with tips they might make a whopping $5.00-6.00 an hour.

I don’t understand how people in this thread can act like they make $30 at all times. It’s not because of “informational asymmetry.” It’s because they don’t. If they did, all the people that served would tell their friends, and soon enough everyone would want to serve food.

I also disagree with the unskilled labor being interchangable. Maybe that could be applied to in the same relative field (factory work to factory work, roofing to construction, serving to dishwashing), but I doubt more than 5% of the people that I’ve worked with in the food industry could do a half servicable job on a roofing crew.

305

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:

[quote]OsakaNate wrote:

I’ll say it again, there is no way a server is worth $30 an hour. Period.

If you’d actually care to show me otherwise, go ahead and do so.
[/quote]

What you’re saying is the DEFINITION of being on a “high horse” - you’re saying that people shouldn’t get $x per hour for a profession based on how YOU feel about it, and that’s bull shit.

It’s rarely a consistent $30/hr and even then they still have to tip out. Again, get off your high fucking horse (maybe both you and the horse are high).

Here, I did some quick math for you idiots:

Avg server wage (consistent) per 5.5 HOUR SHIFT (normal shift), from a collection of server-friends I’ve spoken to – $23/hr
Avg server works 6 days a week if they’re experienced and been there a while, because they want to make as much tip as possible
Avg of 51 weeks a year worked

23 x 5.5 x 6 x 51 = $38,709

If working only 5 days a week…

23 x 5.5 x 5 x 51 - $32,257

Now…is that seriously so much money to you some of you that you are simply APPALLED such that you want to make sure the server doesn’t come close to that?

That’s what this argument is boiling down to: “I don’t think FEEL they should be making that much…”

Well, they’re not making that much to begin with. What people make per year is none of your goddamn business. Why that has an impact on whether or not you TIP (which is the basis of a lot of servers’ incomes) is absurd and frankly disgusting.

Bunch of egotistical fucks.[/quote]

Also, everyone arguing to let the market work has it right, and the current status quo is what the market has dictated. If less and less people decide to tip, the # of servers will drop and restaurant owners will be forced to pay a higher wage and food prices go up. At the end of the day, equilibrium is reached one way or another. [/quote]

But the thing is there is information asymmetry in the market. If the average person knew how much these people made with their tips, I would argue people would tip them less. Much less.
[/quote]

…And then less people would be willing to be servers (see above for what happens after that). Some people are only servers BECAUSE they make that much. [/quote]

The market has reached an equilibrium but there is market inefficiency.

Currently, they get paid a wage well above the average going rate for a non-skilled labourer. Even If tipping was reduced I would argue non-skill labourers from other markets would move in to make up for people who do not want to work at the new wage. Even if their wage dropped to say $25/hour I’m sure people pumping gas for $12/hour would have no problem making up for the loss of employees.

[/quote]

So why don’t the $12/hour gas pumping employees flock to serving as waiters right now when the pay is (supposedly) $30/hour? And will those converted gas pumpers be good enough as servers to still make $30/hour?

[/quote]

I explained this earlier with the term information asymmetry - the average person has no idea a server makes $30+/hour. If this were common knowledge I think the supply in this market would increase and people would tip less. I don’t know about you but before this thread I would’ve guessed with tips their wages worked out to no more than $20/hour MAX.[/quote]

This doesn’t make any sense. By this logic you would overtip servers who you believe make less money but provided worse service, and undertip servers who you believe to make more money even if they provided better service. I tip based on whether I believe the server did a good job making my experience as pleasant as possible, how much they’re making in a night does not cross my mind. It’s none of my business how much they make.

[/quote]

I believe people would not be tipping 15%+ as a standard if they knew the person was making $30+/hour. The quality of service would still effect the tip but this unwritten rule of tipping “10% minimum” would be lower.

I definitely think part of the reason people tip is because of the belief these people garner a low wage on paper.

306

[quote]therajraj wrote:

I believe people would not be tipping 15%+ as a standard if they knew the person was making $30+/hour. [/quote]

They don’t.

307

[quote]Blaze_108 wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

I believe people would not be tipping 15%+ as a standard if they knew the person was making $30+/hour. [/quote]

They don’t.[/quote]

Not usually for most of them. As you noted when they bust their ass on Saturday night that can make serious money but Tuesday night is a bust. If they don’t work Tuesday they don’t get a shot at Saturday.

308

[quote]Blaze_108 wrote:
Why does everyone keep throwing out $30 an hour? MementoMori isn’t a server, he said that himself. A server in a nice, busy restaurant on a friday or saturday night might break $30 an hour with tips. However, get that same server working on a tuesday afternoon when it’s really slow and with tips they might make a whopping $5.00-6.00 an hour.

I don’t understand how people in this thread can act like they make $30 at all times. It’s not because of “informational asymmetry.” It’s because they don’t. If they did, all the people that served would tell their friends, and soon enough everyone would want to serve food.

I also disagree with the unskilled labor being interchangable. Maybe that could be applied to in the same relative field (factory work to factory work, roofing to construction, serving to dishwashing), but I doubt more than 5% of the people that I’ve worked with in the food industry could do a half servicable job on a roofing crew.[/quote]

Saveski, the so-called restaurant owner, is the one that claimed it would cost him $30/hr to hire a server who did not receive tips. It’s been thrown around for two reasons. 1) I don’t think anybody really believes this to be true. 2) If it is true, and if customers actually realized that servers were making that much more than other unskilled labor, they (as a group) would not tip nearly as much.

309

You would definitely have to pay waitstaff more than many other jobs because it requires more work. If the pay was the same they would work at a grocery store or department store or many other jobs that do not get their people to hustle and provide good service.

310

[quote]Big Banana wrote:
If you don’t want to take his word for it do your own research. Do you really think he is going to open his books to you?[/quote]

That’s not how this works. We have presented our side of the argument. It has been refuted with no reasoning given. If you all want to claim that we are wrong, plus all of the other names that have been thrown around, the burden is on you to provide a sound argument for your position. This has not been done.

Instead, they keep reverting back to “I own a restaurant” or “I was/am a server” to which I say “so what? give me a reason to believe you.” The only reasons that have been given are the $70/meal, $30/hour, servers work so hard, and incentive argument. None of these make any sense, so we are simply asking for some sound reasoning behind them.

311

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
People refer to servers as unskilled labour because there is no education required to perform the tasks in the job. It has NOTHING to do with how hard job is.[/quote]

I have been to some restaurants where the wait staff is very skilled. Memorizing extensive menus and wine lists. Getting the order right without writing anything down. Keeping the table free of bread crumbs and dirty dishes. Being helpful and unobtrusive.

These are skills and are they are deservedly well compensated.[/quote]

Let me clarify: no FORMAL education. You don’t have to go to school to be a server[/quote]

Actors, machinists and Bill Gates have no formal education. They are still skilled.[/quote]

Bill Gates has honorary degrees, actors go to school (drama major) and machinists have certifications
[/quote]

Honorary degree is not an education, actors don’t need to go to college and many machinists work and learn their trade before they get any certification. Many machinists and welders do not even get certified.

[/quote]

Using Bill Gates as an example of unskilled labour is absurd. The guy is a self made billionaire, and only dropped out of university to start a company that would eventually make him billions. Not exactly in line with what we’re talking about.

Where I live to become a machinists or welder you have to go to school, pass exams and apprentice under someone who knows what they’re doing. The standards in your country may be different.

[/quote]

I am American and have worked in Canada. You are not quite correct. There are hundreds if not thousands of machinists, millwrights, plumbers and electricians working in Canadian industry that did not have to go to school or pass exams for the work they do. Often times mere inspection by a someone certified is more than sufficient. Same as in every other country I have been in.

These are skilled positions learned on the job.[/quote]

But is this legal?

http://www.millwrightsontario.com/eng/become.htm

To work in many skilled trades in Ontario you must have a certificate of Qualification

312

[quote]tedro wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:
If you don’t want to take his word for it do your own research. Do you really think he is going to open his books to you?[/quote]

That’s not how this works. We have presented our side of the argument. It has been refuted with no reasoning given. If you all want to claim that we are wrong, plus all of the other names that have been thrown around, the burden is on you to provide a sound argument for your position. This has not been done. Instead, they keep reverting back to “I own a restaurant” or “I was/am a server” to which I say “so what? give me a reason to believe you.” The only reasons that have been given are the $70/meal, $30/hour, servers work so hard, and incentive argument. None of these make any sense, so we are simply asking for some sound reasoning behind them.[/quote]

Sound reasoning has been presented.

Your desire to change the system appears to be based on personal feelings that you are not comfortable with tipping and feel peoples pay should be regulated by an outside force rather than market forces.

313

[quote]tedro wrote:
Saveski, the so-called restaurant owner, is the one that claimed it would cost him $30/hr to hire a server who did not receive tips. It’s been thrown around for two reasons. 1) I don’t think anybody really believes this to be true. 2) If it is true, and if customers actually realized that servers were making that much more than other unskilled labor, they (as a group) would not tip nearly as much.[/quote]

If people don’t believe it’s true, then stop quoting it?

They don’t, so theorizing about what people would do if servers made a wage they don’t make is quite pointless, no?

I bet if Mcdonalds paid people $30/hr more people would want to work there and not look down on those who do. <-example of pointless theorization.

314

I’m going on $30+/hour by some of the stuff said people who has posted in this thread that work in the industry.

315

[quote]tedro wrote:

[quote]Blaze_108 wrote:
Why does everyone keep throwing out $30 an hour? MementoMori isn’t a server, he said that himself. A server in a nice, busy restaurant on a friday or saturday night might break $30 an hour with tips. However, get that same server working on a tuesday afternoon when it’s really slow and with tips they might make a whopping $5.00-6.00 an hour.

I don’t understand how people in this thread can act like they make $30 at all times. It’s not because of “informational asymmetry.” It’s because they don’t. If they did, all the people that served would tell their friends, and soon enough everyone would want to serve food.

I also disagree with the unskilled labor being interchangable. Maybe that could be applied to in the same relative field (factory work to factory work, roofing to construction, serving to dishwashing), but I doubt more than 5% of the people that I’ve worked with in the food industry could do a half servicable job on a roofing crew.[/quote]

Saveski, the so-called restaurant owner, is the one that claimed it would cost him $30/hr to hire a server who did not receive tips. It’s been thrown around for two reasons. 1) I don’t think anybody really believes this to be true. 2) If it is true, and if customers actually realized that servers were making that much more than other unskilled labor, they (as a group) would not tip nearly as much.[/quote]

If we presuppose “unskilled” refers to lacking formal education, then I can think of numerous “unskilled” positions making 30,000+ a year. How many construction workers are making significantly less than that? I don’t know of any around my neck of the woods.

To Saveski: Do you provide any benefits to your servers? If not, that obviously must be factored into their net income.

To OG: So you do in fact earn tips? That’s the only conclusion I can draw if your department pools them.

316

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
People refer to servers as unskilled labour because there is no education required to perform the tasks in the job. It has NOTHING to do with how hard job is.[/quote]

I have been to some restaurants where the wait staff is very skilled. Memorizing extensive menus and wine lists. Getting the order right without writing anything down. Keeping the table free of bread crumbs and dirty dishes. Being helpful and unobtrusive.

These are skills and are they are deservedly well compensated.[/quote]

Let me clarify: no FORMAL education. You don’t have to go to school to be a server[/quote]

Actors, machinists and Bill Gates have no formal education. They are still skilled.[/quote]

Bill Gates has honorary degrees, actors go to school (drama major) and machinists have certifications
[/quote]

Honorary degree is not an education, actors don’t need to go to college and many machinists work and learn their trade before they get any certification. Many machinists and welders do not even get certified.

[/quote]

Using Bill Gates as an example of unskilled labour is absurd. The guy is a self made billionaire, and only dropped out of university to start a company that would eventually make him billions. Not exactly in line with what we’re talking about.

Where I live to become a machinists or welder you have to go to school, pass exams and apprentice under someone who knows what they’re doing. The standards in your country may be different.

[/quote]

I am American and have worked in Canada. You are not quite correct. There are hundreds if not thousands of machinists, millwrights, plumbers and electricians working in Canadian industry that did not have to go to school or pass exams for the work they do. Often times mere inspection by a someone certified is more than sufficient. Same as in every other country I have been in.

These are skilled positions learned on the job.[/quote]

But is this legal?

http://www.millwrightsontario.com/eng/become.htm

To work in many skilled trades in Ontario you must have a certificate of Qualification[/quote]

That is a union requirement for union shops or union projects.

However, if you’re already working as a non-unionized millwright, or if you’ve come from another country that has different policies or paperwork regarding apprenticeship, you may be able to use your training or work experience towards your Ontario certification (which you need to become a member of the union).

On non-union jobs often use a certified inspector or supervisor to sign off on the work to meet any specified or regulatory requirements for certification.

This is pretty standard world wide.

317

[quote]tedro wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:
If you don’t want to take his word for it do your own research. Do you really think he is going to open his books to you?[/quote]

That’s not how this works. We have presented our side of the argument. It has been refuted with no reasoning given. If you all want to claim that we are wrong, plus all of the other names that have been thrown around, the burden is on you to provide a sound argument for your position. This has not been done. Instead, they keep reverting back to “I own a restaurant” or “I was/am a server” to which I say “so what? give me a reason to believe you.” The only reasons that have been given are the $70/meal, $30/hour, servers work so hard, and incentive argument. None of these make any sense, so we are simply asking for some sound reasoning behind them.[/quote]

Ok, how about this. You are correct that you will most likely receive the same service whether you choose to tip or not. However, those are the actions of 1 person. What if everyone chose to do this (as you seem to be advocating)?

Wages of servers would go down drastically, resulting in poor service. This is economics. You could argue that restaurant owners would be forced to pay more to keep good servers and that argument may be correct.

However, the reality is that NOT everyone is doing that and most people choose to tip. So on a macro economics level your actions mean nothing. On a micro economics level your actions jip the server out of what they earned by providing a pleasant experience. If you don’t want to tip, that’s fine. However, I encourage you to be very clear about this with the server UP FRONT so they have the opportunity to give you the poor service you deserve. At least that puts you and the server on equal playing fields instead of the server working extra hard to receive nothing extra in return.

320

Seems like I missed most of the battle here, but as a long time part time bartender, I feel there’s still some notes I can add. I’ll exclude serious clubs/high end restaurants since their pay scale doesn’t really apply. There are places where you can easily make $300+ per night, but slots for those are very rare.

At peak weekend hours, as a bartender with a decent crowd, you can expect depending on your speed, anywhere from $30-$100 per hour. Your speed in turn is dependent on what your crowd orders, the type of crowd, layout of the bar and if you have barbacks or not. Either way, that peak earning only really happens from about 11:30 to 1:30. Normally if I’m on for a Saturday, I’m on from 6-2. Most of the early evening is spent stocking, prepping and cleaning. Then usually you have to mop up, wipe down, count money etc. So you get off at about 3 or later. On a great night (in Baltimore and the places I usually work), I can clear about $200, which breaks down to a little over 20 an hour. Again, this is a rarity.

I don’t think most people understand how difficult and thankless of a job it really is. I’ve been called racial slurs, had glasses thrown at me, yelled at, invited to altercations and I’ve never worked at a really rough place. It’s just the nature of the business. I liken it a mix between sales and a cook. You’re paid commission based both on the sale and the quality of your product.

At the last bar I worked at, we started surcharging customers because no one tipped. We could total $5000 in sales and have only $200 in tips at the end of the night. If you’ve been busting ass for 5-6 hours with 4 other bartenders and you get $40, you can get pretty pissed. I generally dislike the being paid a % of sales method because it doesn’t really reward bartenders to make better drinks or be friendlier.

Lastly, I try not to order drinks from hot chicks. Inevitably, they’ll take a long time and fuck up your drink anyway, then expect a big tip because they’re pretty. 9/10 times a guy will be harder working, faster and less likely to put lime juice in your manhattan.

My general rule for tipping is $1 on drinks, $2 on complicated mixed drinks or 20-25%, whichever is greater. For restaurants, it’s 20% unless they mess up, 30% if it’s the late night shift at the diner. No one wants to deal with drunk asses at 4 AM. People who do should be accordingly compensated.