Tipping - Good Idea or Bad Idea

Off Topic
281

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
People refer to servers as unskilled labour because there is no education required to perform the tasks in the job. It has NOTHING to do with how hard job is.[/quote]

I have been to some restaurants where the wait staff is very skilled. Memorizing extensive menus and wine lists. Getting the order right without writing anything down. Keeping the table free of bread crumbs and dirty dishes. Being helpful and unobtrusive.

These are skills and are they are deservedly well compensated.[/quote]

Let me clarify: no FORMAL education. You don’t have to go to school to be a server

282

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
People refer to servers as unskilled labour because there is no education required to perform the tasks in the job. It has NOTHING to do with how hard job is.[/quote]

I have been to some restaurants where the wait staff is very skilled. Memorizing extensive menus and wine lists. Getting the order right without writing anything down. Keeping the table free of bread crumbs and dirty dishes. Being helpful and unobtrusive.

These are skills and are they are deservedly well compensated.[/quote]

Let me clarify: no FORMAL education. You don’t have to go to school to be a server[/quote]

But you do apparently have to go to school to participate in this thread!

283

^ Or experience you forgot that. :slight_smile:

284

[quote]DJHT wrote:
Why must the customer subsidize the owner’s payroll? … [/quote]

It is called capitalism. That is how all businesses work. The money the customer pays is used to cover material and labor cost. And if the owner is lucky he gets some to kee

285

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:

[quote]OsakaNate wrote:

I’ll say it again, there is no way a server is worth $30 an hour. Period.

If you’d actually care to show me otherwise, go ahead and do so.
[/quote]

What you’re saying is the DEFINITION of being on a “high horse” - you’re saying that people shouldn’t get $x per hour for a profession based on how YOU feel about it, and that’s bull shit.

It’s rarely a consistent $30/hr and even then they still have to tip out. Again, get off your high fucking horse (maybe both you and the horse are high).

Here, I did some quick math for you idiots:

Avg server wage (consistent) per 5.5 HOUR SHIFT (normal shift), from a collection of server-friends I’ve spoken to – $23/hr
Avg server works 6 days a week if they’re experienced and been there a while, because they want to make as much tip as possible
Avg of 51 weeks a year worked

23 x 5.5 x 6 x 51 = $38,709

If working only 5 days a week…

23 x 5.5 x 5 x 51 - $32,257

Now…is that seriously so much money to you some of you that you are simply APPALLED such that you want to make sure the server doesn’t come close to that?

That’s what this argument is boiling down to: “I don’t think FEEL they should be making that much…”

Well, they’re not making that much to begin with. What people make per year is none of your goddamn business. Why that has an impact on whether or not you TIP (which is the basis of a lot of servers’ incomes) is absurd and frankly disgusting.

Bunch of egotistical fucks.[/quote]

Also, everyone arguing to let the market work has it right, and the current status quo is what the market has dictated. If less and less people decide to tip, the # of servers will drop and restaurant owners will be forced to pay a higher wage and food prices go up. At the end of the day, equilibrium is reached one way or another. [/quote]

But the thing is there is information asymmetry in the market. If the average person knew how much these people made with their tips, I would argue people would tip them less. Much less.
[/quote]

…And then less people would be willing to be servers (see above for what happens after that). Some people are only servers BECAUSE they make that much. [/quote]

The market has reached an equilibrium but there is market inefficiency.

Currently, they get paid a wage well above the average going rate for a non-skilled labourer. Even If tipping was reduced I would argue non-skill labourers from other markets would move in to make up for people who do not want to work at the new wage. Even if their wage dropped to say $25/hour I’m sure people pumping gas for $12/hour would have no problem making up for the loss of employees.

[/quote]

So why don’t the $12/hour gas pumping employees flock to serving as waiters right now when the pay is (supposedly) $30/hour? And will those converted gas pumpers be good enough as servers to still make $30/hour?

I don’t tip well when I receive bad service. When I receive service that I deem satisfactory, I tip well because it’s what I expect and I expect to pay for it. When I receive service that I deem has gone above and beyond, I tip exceptionally well because that server has earned it by making my experience that much more enjoyable.

I know I called serving a “no skill” job earlier in this thread, but upon further thinking about it, giving people a very pleasant experience while dining out is certainly a skill. There are many, many people who are NOT capable of doing that very well, and I’m willing to bet many of those people are gas pumpers and should expect to be paid less. :slight_smile:

286

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:
Why must the customer subsidize the owner’s payroll? … [/quote]

It is called capitalism. That is how all businesses work. The money the customer pays is used to cover material and labor cost. And if the owner is lucky he gets some to kee [/quote]

Dude I didnt write that? I was quoting the guy above me. Talk to Tedor he wants us to all be communists so he doesnt feel bad about be a cheap bastard.

Just joking tedor I am sure in real life you are a great guy that gives to the homeless and helps old ladies cross the street.

287

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
People refer to servers as unskilled labour because there is no education required to perform the tasks in the job. It has NOTHING to do with how hard job is.[/quote]

I have been to some restaurants where the wait staff is very skilled. Memorizing extensive menus and wine lists. Getting the order right without writing anything down. Keeping the table free of bread crumbs and dirty dishes. Being helpful and unobtrusive.

These are skills and are they are deservedly well compensated.[/quote]

Let me clarify: no FORMAL education. You don’t have to go to school to be a server[/quote]

Actors, machinists and Bill Gates have no formal education. They are still skilled.

288

Edit - just saw we’re now classifying “skill” as formal education which has absolutely no bearing on what skills one does and does not possess.

I could be the best damn plumber in the world with no formal education and I’ll be damned if I let someone tell me that plumbing is a no skill job.

289

[quote]DJHT wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:
Why must the customer subsidize the owner’s payroll? … [/quote]

It is called capitalism. That is how all businesses work. The money the customer pays is used to cover material and labor cost. And if the owner is lucky he gets some to kee [/quote]

Dude I didnt write that? I was quoting the guy above me. Talk to Tedor he wants us to all be communists so he doesnt feel bad about be a cheap bastard.

Just joking tedor I am sure in real life you are a great guy that gives to the homeless and helps old ladies cross the street. [/quote]

Sorry man. It just jumped out at me when I was skimming the thread.

DJHT = good man and wise

tedor = evil communist

290

[quote]saveski wrote:
I checked out of this thread long ago - but had to comment here.

You’re a teacher? I hope you’re being sarcastic but if not then you’re just a douchebag.

Last time I checked teachers were salaried and not tipped.

I’ve chimed in to this discussion as the owner of a large 250-seat restaurant and my facts just seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Just makes me realize how stupid people are in defending their own beliefs CONTRARY TO THE FACTS AND REALITY.

Don’t listen to me though - I’ve only got 60 employees and 25 servers on staff and deal with this shit every minute of every day.

You college kids are WAY smarter than me.

[/quote]

Your so-called facts have been nothing but a bunch of assumptions, generalizations, and name-calling. The only argument you have made to defend your position is that you think it would cost $30/hr to hire a server that did not receive any tips, yet when asked to justify how you arrived at this number you have simply claimed to be right by virtue of your status, and then thrown out some more assumptions about the opposing position.

291

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Edit - just saw we’re now classifying “skill” as formal education which has absolutely no bearing on what skills one does and does not possess.

I could be the best damn plumber in the world with no formal education and I’ll be damned if I let someone tell me that plumbing is a no skill job.[/quote]

This I can definitely agree with. Knowledge works the same way.

292

[quote]tedro wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:
I checked out of this thread long ago - but had to comment here.

You’re a teacher? I hope you’re being sarcastic but if not then you’re just a douchebag.

Last time I checked teachers were salaried and not tipped.

I’ve chimed in to this discussion as the owner of a large 250-seat restaurant and my facts just seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Just makes me realize how stupid people are in defending their own beliefs CONTRARY TO THE FACTS AND REALITY.

Don’t listen to me though - I’ve only got 60 employees and 25 servers on staff and deal with this shit every minute of every day.

You college kids are WAY smarter than me.

[/quote]

Your so-called facts have been nothing but a bunch of assumptions, generalizations, and name-calling. The only argument you have made to defend your position is that you think it would cost $30/hr to hire a server that did not receive any tips, yet when asked to justify how you arrived at this number you have simply claimed to be right by virtue of your status, and then thrown out some more assumptions about the opposing position.
[/quote]

Asking a business owner how he came up with his costing is silly. He knows because he lives it. He has his head in his books every night. He knows his costs and what his waiters take home.

293

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:

[quote]OsakaNate wrote:

I’ll say it again, there is no way a server is worth $30 an hour. Period.

If you’d actually care to show me otherwise, go ahead and do so.
[/quote]

What you’re saying is the DEFINITION of being on a “high horse” - you’re saying that people shouldn’t get $x per hour for a profession based on how YOU feel about it, and that’s bull shit.

It’s rarely a consistent $30/hr and even then they still have to tip out. Again, get off your high fucking horse (maybe both you and the horse are high).

Here, I did some quick math for you idiots:

Avg server wage (consistent) per 5.5 HOUR SHIFT (normal shift), from a collection of server-friends I’ve spoken to – $23/hr
Avg server works 6 days a week if they’re experienced and been there a while, because they want to make as much tip as possible
Avg of 51 weeks a year worked

23 x 5.5 x 6 x 51 = $38,709

If working only 5 days a week…

23 x 5.5 x 5 x 51 - $32,257

Now…is that seriously so much money to you some of you that you are simply APPALLED such that you want to make sure the server doesn’t come close to that?

That’s what this argument is boiling down to: “I don’t think FEEL they should be making that much…”

Well, they’re not making that much to begin with. What people make per year is none of your goddamn business. Why that has an impact on whether or not you TIP (which is the basis of a lot of servers’ incomes) is absurd and frankly disgusting.

Bunch of egotistical fucks.[/quote]

Also, everyone arguing to let the market work has it right, and the current status quo is what the market has dictated. If less and less people decide to tip, the # of servers will drop and restaurant owners will be forced to pay a higher wage and food prices go up. At the end of the day, equilibrium is reached one way or another. [/quote]

But the thing is there is information asymmetry in the market. If the average person knew how much these people made with their tips, I would argue people would tip them less. Much less.
[/quote]

…And then less people would be willing to be servers (see above for what happens after that). Some people are only servers BECAUSE they make that much. [/quote]

The market has reached an equilibrium but there is market inefficiency.

Currently, they get paid a wage well above the average going rate for a non-skilled labourer. Even If tipping was reduced I would argue non-skill labourers from other markets would move in to make up for people who do not want to work at the new wage. Even if their wage dropped to say $25/hour I’m sure people pumping gas for $12/hour would have no problem making up for the loss of employees.

[/quote]

So why don’t the $12/hour gas pumping employees flock to serving as waiters right now when the pay is (supposedly) $30/hour? And will those converted gas pumpers be good enough as servers to still make $30/hour?

[/quote]

I explained this earlier with the term information asymmetry - the average person has no idea a server makes $30+/hour. If this were common knowledge I think the supply in this market would increase and people would tip less. I don’t know about you but before this thread I would’ve guessed with tips their wages worked out to no more than $20/hour MAX.

And yeah not everyone could cut it as a server but by and large unskilled labour in pretty darn interchangeable.

294

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
People refer to servers as unskilled labour because there is no education required to perform the tasks in the job. It has NOTHING to do with how hard job is.[/quote]

I have been to some restaurants where the wait staff is very skilled. Memorizing extensive menus and wine lists. Getting the order right without writing anything down. Keeping the table free of bread crumbs and dirty dishes. Being helpful and unobtrusive.

These are skills and are they are deservedly well compensated.[/quote]

Let me clarify: no FORMAL education. You don’t have to go to school to be a server[/quote]

Actors, machinists and Bill Gates have no formal education. They are still skilled.[/quote]

Bill Gates has honorary degrees, actors go to school (drama major) and machinists have certifications

295

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Edit - just saw we’re now classifying “skill” as formal education which has absolutely no bearing on what skills one does and does not possess.

I could be the best damn plumber in the world with no formal education and I’ll be damned if I let someone tell me that plumbing is a no skill job.[/quote]

I sure as hell wouldn’t hire a plumber who didn’t go through an apprenticeship program.

296

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
People refer to servers as unskilled labour because there is no education required to perform the tasks in the job. It has NOTHING to do with how hard job is.[/quote]

I have been to some restaurants where the wait staff is very skilled. Memorizing extensive menus and wine lists. Getting the order right without writing anything down. Keeping the table free of bread crumbs and dirty dishes. Being helpful and unobtrusive.

These are skills and are they are deservedly well compensated.[/quote]

Let me clarify: no FORMAL education. You don’t have to go to school to be a server[/quote]

Actors, machinists and Bill Gates have no formal education. They are still skilled.[/quote]

Bill Gates has honorary degrees, actors go to school (drama major) and machinists have certifications
[/quote]

Honorary degree is not an education, actors don’t need to go to college and many machinists work and learn their trade before they get any certification. Many machinists and welders do not even get certified.

297

[quote]therajraj wrote
I sure as hell wouldn’t hire a plumber who didn’t go through an apprenticeship program.[/quote]

There are many, many good plumbers and electricians that were trained on the job and never went through a formal apprenticeship. I know people with 20+ years in each field that had no formal training.

298

[quote]Big Banana wrote:
Asking a business owner how he came up with his costing is silly. He knows because he lives it. He has his head in his books every night. He knows his costs and what his waiters take home.[/quote]

So then I am supposed to take his word at face value merely based on his status? No wonder this stupid tipping thing has gone on so long and continues to grow.

299

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:

[quote]OsakaNate wrote:

I’ll say it again, there is no way a server is worth $30 an hour. Period.

If you’d actually care to show me otherwise, go ahead and do so.
[/quote]

What you’re saying is the DEFINITION of being on a “high horse” - you’re saying that people shouldn’t get $x per hour for a profession based on how YOU feel about it, and that’s bull shit.

It’s rarely a consistent $30/hr and even then they still have to tip out. Again, get off your high fucking horse (maybe both you and the horse are high).

Here, I did some quick math for you idiots:

Avg server wage (consistent) per 5.5 HOUR SHIFT (normal shift), from a collection of server-friends I’ve spoken to – $23/hr
Avg server works 6 days a week if they’re experienced and been there a while, because they want to make as much tip as possible
Avg of 51 weeks a year worked

23 x 5.5 x 6 x 51 = $38,709

If working only 5 days a week…

23 x 5.5 x 5 x 51 - $32,257

Now…is that seriously so much money to you some of you that you are simply APPALLED such that you want to make sure the server doesn’t come close to that?

That’s what this argument is boiling down to: “I don’t think FEEL they should be making that much…”

Well, they’re not making that much to begin with. What people make per year is none of your goddamn business. Why that has an impact on whether or not you TIP (which is the basis of a lot of servers’ incomes) is absurd and frankly disgusting.

Bunch of egotistical fucks.[/quote]

Also, everyone arguing to let the market work has it right, and the current status quo is what the market has dictated. If less and less people decide to tip, the # of servers will drop and restaurant owners will be forced to pay a higher wage and food prices go up. At the end of the day, equilibrium is reached one way or another. [/quote]

But the thing is there is information asymmetry in the market. If the average person knew how much these people made with their tips, I would argue people would tip them less. Much less.
[/quote]

…And then less people would be willing to be servers (see above for what happens after that). Some people are only servers BECAUSE they make that much. [/quote]

The market has reached an equilibrium but there is market inefficiency.

Currently, they get paid a wage well above the average going rate for a non-skilled labourer. Even If tipping was reduced I would argue non-skill labourers from other markets would move in to make up for people who do not want to work at the new wage. Even if their wage dropped to say $25/hour I’m sure people pumping gas for $12/hour would have no problem making up for the loss of employees.

[/quote]

So why don’t the $12/hour gas pumping employees flock to serving as waiters right now when the pay is (supposedly) $30/hour? And will those converted gas pumpers be good enough as servers to still make $30/hour?

[/quote]

I explained this earlier with the term information asymmetry - the average person has no idea a server makes $30+/hour. If this were common knowledge I think the supply in this market would increase and people would tip less. I don’t know about you but before this thread I would’ve guessed with tips their wages worked out to no more than $20/hour MAX.[/quote]

This doesn’t make any sense. By this logic you would overtip servers who you believe make less money but provided worse service, and undertip servers who you believe to make more money even if they provided better service. I tip based on whether I believe the server did a good job making my experience as pleasant as possible, how much they’re making in a night does not cross my mind. It’s none of my business how much they make.

[quote]And yeah not everyone could cut it as a server but by and large unskilled labour in pretty darn interchangeable.

[/quote]

I disagree. By this logic we could move every member of the labor union to work a Applebees and move every waitress to work in the labor union.

300

[quote]Big Banana wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:
Dude I didnt write that? I was quoting the guy above me. Talk to Tedor he wants us to all be communists so he doesnt feel bad about be a cheap bastard.

Just joking tedor I am sure in real life you are a great guy that gives to the homeless and helps old ladies cross the street. [/quote]

Sorry man. It just jumped out at me when I was skimming the thread.

DJHT = good man and wise

tedor = evil communist[/quote]

Oh man, I almost missed these!

Dear, dear logically impaired. I know it won’t make any sense, but please humor me and at least explain the thought process as to how you arrived at this conclusion.