[quote]MementoMori wrote:
Who are all of you to put monetary worth on other’s efforts.[/quote]
People put monetary worth on other’s efforts all the time. It’s called determining the market value so wages can be negotiated/set.
You don’t think your boss puts a monetary worth on your effort?
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
I’ll say it again, there is no way a server is worth $30 an hour. Period.
If you’d actually care to show me otherwise, go ahead and do so.
[/quote]
What you’re saying is the DEFINITION of being on a “high horse” - you’re saying that people shouldn’t get $x per hour for a profession based on how YOU feel about it, and that’s bull shit.
It’s rarely a consistent $30/hr and even then they still have to tip out. Again, get off your high fucking horse (maybe both you and the horse are high).
Here, I did some quick math for you idiots:
Avg server wage (consistent) per 5.5 HOUR SHIFT (normal shift), from a collection of server-friends I’ve spoken to – $23/hr
Avg server works 6 days a week if they’re experienced and been there a while, because they want to make as much tip as possible
Avg of 51 weeks a year worked
23 x 5.5 x 6 x 51 = $38,709
If working only 5 days a week…
23 x 5.5 x 5 x 51 - $32,257
Now…is that seriously so much money to you some of you that you are simply APPALLED such that you want to make sure the server doesn’t come close to that?
That’s what this argument is boiling down to: “I don’t think FEEL they should be making that much…”
Well, they’re not making that much to begin with. What people make per year is none of your goddamn business. Why that has an impact on whether or not you TIP (which is the basis of a lot of servers’ incomes) is absurd and frankly disgusting.
Bunch of egotistical fucks.[/quote]
Also, everyone arguing to let the market work has it right, and the current status quo is what the market has dictated. If less and less people decide to tip, the # of servers will drop and restaurant owners will be forced to pay a higher wage and food prices go up. At the end of the day, equilibrium is reached one way or another. [/quote]
But the thing is there is information asymmetry in the market. If the average person knew how much these people made with their tips, I would argue people would tip them less. Much less.
[/quote]
…And then less people would be willing to be servers (see above for what happens after that). Some people are only servers BECAUSE they make that much. [/quote]
The market has reached an equilibrium but there is market inefficiency.
Currently, they get paid a wage well above the average going rate for a non-skilled labourer. Even If tipping was reduced I would argue non-skill labourers from other markets would move in to make up for people who do not want to work at the new wage. Even if their wage dropped to say $25/hour I’m sure people pumping gas for $12/hour would have no problem making up for the loss of employees.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
The crowd, albeit a small one, was screaming that employers should pay their waitstaff a higher wage. There was a clear implication that it should even be forced on society to accept this custom of no tipping (like all the really cool countries overseas, you know - Japan and the European utopian countries) accompanied by said higher wages.[/quote]
No, I mentioned Japan because it is a country that doesn’t tip by custom, and doesn’t seem to be suffering for not doing so. That was the only reason I brought it up.
It seems to me that the people in favor of the tipping status quo are making the claims that if tipping ended:
Restaurants would fail because the labor costs would be too high
In order to offset the rise in labor cost, a drastic change in menu price would occur and they would lose business because of it
Service quality would decline because servers have no incentive to do their jobs
My point was that there are lots and lots of restaurants in Osaka, that have reasonably-priced menus, with good service, and that the absence of the custom of tipping hasn’t seemed to affect that.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
I hate tipping. I do not get tipped at my job and I do service other people. [/quote]
And by service you mean???
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote] tedro wrote:
Push, please thoroughly read a post before assuming everybody is insisting on governmental price controls. It was pretty obvious to me that osaka was just saying that there is no way the free market dictates a waiter must be given $30 an hour to keep all positions filled, as saveski suggested.
I’m sorry Montana has some ridiculous minimum wage laws, but quit trying to change this into an argument no one is trying to make.[/quote]
This is closer to what I was trying to convey. Clearly did a poor job of it.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
FTR, that’s actually a lot of money for what amounts to a PART TIME, NO SKILLS job. [/quote]
And this was my other point, also probably not as clearly articulated as I had meant it to be.
[/quote]
I can’t help but wonder why some folks are all bent out of shape if a waitress makes $30 hr working part time and at best averages ~$30k a year. I just don’t get it. Why begrudge them that measly of an income? What do you wish they’d make? $15k? $12k?
Why not whine about a fuckin attorney who pulls in $200 hr after expenses? Or one of the most worthless cocksuckers on the face of the earth - a US Congressman who pulls in $165k + fringes? Why does the waitress catch the collective wrath of the Reform Tipping Now crowd? Do you honestly know of ANY godawful rich, part time, no skills waiters and waitresses? Really?
And if they really exist, these affluent waitpersons who bask in the luxury of their opulence before and after sauntering to their jobs at Golden Corral and Applebee’s and Luby’s Cafeteria and Famous Dave’s BBQ and Chuck’s Down Home Cafe, why not emulate them? Quit your insanely boring job sitting in a cubicle surfing T-Nation on the company dime and swim, swim, swim in the fountain of wealth that a job like waitressing at Bob’s Steakhouse provides. Do it, dudes and dudettes, do it.
[/quote]
hahahahahaha thanks Push I had to work yesterday and then take care of my kids after work and couldnt argue with people who insist on knowing everything but not proving anything.
Both Push and I are on record here with pictures and full disclosure of what we do for a living. We base are argument in the real world, OG has her opinion and I for one can respect that because she at least disclosed her real world experience. However others hide behind a computer screen and then expect respect of their “opinions”.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
My argument was you don’t get here -------------------------LOW WAGE + TIPS------------to there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HIGHER WAGE + NO TIPS------------- quickly without the Long Arm of the Law muscling in and making the change.[/quote]
Also, to address this, although I am on the side of ‘‘HIGHER WAGE+NO TIPS’’ in this discussion, I am in no way advancing any kind of strategy for the conversion from one side to the other.
The convention of tipping and the economics built around it is so deeply ingrained that an attempt to change it would take some serious finesse, in my opinion.
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
Database Administrator
Registered Nurse
Technical Writer
Fashion Designer
Accountant
Environmental Scientist
K-12 Curriculum Designer
Dental Hygienist
Detectives and Criminal Investigators
Television Producer
[/quote]
Servers don’t make as much as any of those positions. NEXT
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
Who are all of you to put monetary worth on other’s efforts.[/quote]
People put monetary worth on other’s efforts all the time. It’s called determining the market value so wages can be negotiated/set.
You don’t think your boss puts a monetary worth on your effort?[/quote]
Oh you manage a night club? My bad.
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
I’ll say it again, there is no way a server is worth $30 an hour. Period.
[/quote]
Database Administrator
Registered Nurse
Technical Writer
Fashion Designer
Accountant
Environmental Scientist
K-12 Curriculum Designer
Dental Hygienist
Detectives and Criminal Investigators
Television Producer
[/quote]
Servers don’t make as much as any of those positions. NEXT
[/quote]
Comprehension fail.
That was my point. The listed jobs are jobs that demand $30 an hour. Servers do not, although it was advanced that it would require that wage to eliminate tipping.
Try again.
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
I’ll say it again, there is no way a server is worth $30 an hour. Period.
[/quote]
Database Administrator
Registered Nurse
Technical Writer
Fashion Designer
Accountant
Environmental Scientist
K-12 Curriculum Designer
Dental Hygienist
Detectives and Criminal Investigators
Television Producer
[/quote]
Servers don’t make as much as any of those positions. NEXT
[/quote]
Comprehension fail.
That was my point. The listed jobs are jobs that demand $30 an hour. Servers do not, although it was advanced that it would require that wage to eliminate tipping.
Try again.
[/quote]
But a boss said it? I thought that bosses are allowed to decide monetary worth?
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
Who are all of you to put monetary worth on other’s efforts.[/quote]
People put monetary worth on other’s efforts all the time. It’s called determining the market value so wages can be negotiated/set.
You don’t think your boss puts a monetary worth on your effort?[/quote]
Oh you manage a night club? My bad.
[/quote]
You act like you’re the only one that has ever worked in an unskilled labor position.
I am not judging anyone’s efforts at their jobs, just making comparisons of skills at certain wage ranges.
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
Who are all of you to put monetary worth on other’s efforts.[/quote]
People put monetary worth on other’s efforts all the time. It’s called determining the market value so wages can be negotiated/set.
You don’t think your boss puts a monetary worth on your effort?[/quote]
Oh you manage a night club? My bad.
[/quote]
You act like you’re the only one that has ever worked in an unskilled labor position.
I am not judging anyone’s efforts at their jobs, just making comparisons of skills at certain wage ranges.[/quote]
You most certainly are. I don’t tip alot to make sure a server makes more than a school teacher. I tip them 5 dollars because they were worth at least that paltry sum to ME, and I know on a 12 dollar meal it’ll make 'em stop and smile for a second.
On an irrelevant side note. Its no wonder we’ve had a couple threads talking about how hard it is to bang a server/bartender/someone who is working.
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
I’ll say it again, there is no way a server is worth $30 an hour. Period.
[/quote]
Database Administrator
Registered Nurse
Technical Writer
Fashion Designer
Accountant
Environmental Scientist
K-12 Curriculum Designer
Dental Hygienist
Detectives and Criminal Investigators
Television Producer
[/quote]
Servers don’t make as much as any of those positions. NEXT
[/quote]
Comprehension fail.
That was my point. The listed jobs are jobs that demand $30 an hour. Servers do not, although it was advanced that it would require that wage to eliminate tipping.
Try again.
[/quote]
But a boss said it? I thought that bosses are allowed to decide monetary worth?
[/quote]
Like I posted earlier, if the market truly demands a wage be paid for a certain job, then that is what the wage should be. Your boss will determine if your efforts merit that wage.
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
I’ll say it again, there is no way a server is worth $30 an hour. Period.
[/quote]
Database Administrator
Registered Nurse
Technical Writer
Fashion Designer
Accountant
Environmental Scientist
K-12 Curriculum Designer
Dental Hygienist
Detectives and Criminal Investigators
Television Producer
[/quote]
Servers don’t make as much as any of those positions. NEXT
[/quote]
Comprehension fail.
That was my point. The listed jobs are jobs that demand $30 an hour. Servers do not, although it was advanced that it would require that wage to eliminate tipping.
Try again.
[/quote]
But a boss said it? I thought that bosses are allowed to decide monetary worth?
[/quote]
Like I posted earlier, if the market truly demands a wage be paid for a certain job, then that is what the wage should be. Your boss will determine if your efforts merit that wage.
[/quote]
He gives me more hours than any other staff memeber in our night club; therefore, he has determined my merit.
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
Who are all of you to put monetary worth on other’s efforts.[/quote]
People put monetary worth on other’s efforts all the time. It’s called determining the market value so wages can be negotiated/set.
You don’t think your boss puts a monetary worth on your effort?[/quote]
Oh you manage a night club? My bad.
[/quote]
You act like you’re the only one that has ever worked in an unskilled labor position.
I am not judging anyone’s efforts at their jobs, just making comparisons of skills at certain wage ranges.[/quote]
You most certainly are. I don’t tip alot to make sure a server makes more than a school teacher. I tip them 5 dollars because they were worth at least that paltry sum to ME, and I know on a 12 dollar meal it’ll make 'em stop and smile for a second.
[/quote]
No, I am not. I am not saying that servers and barstaff do not work hard, nor am I saying that unskilled labor is easy.
I am saying that it commands a lower wage than skilled labor.
And when I am at home, I tip because I know that servers are not making the wage that other unskilled laborers make, and rely on my tips to cover that gap.
I am also saying that I do not agree with this system, and that servers should be paid on par with others in the industry.
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]MementoMori wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
[quote]OsakaNate wrote:
I’ll say it again, there is no way a server is worth $30 an hour. Period.
[/quote]
Database Administrator
Registered Nurse
Technical Writer
Fashion Designer
Accountant
Environmental Scientist
K-12 Curriculum Designer
Dental Hygienist
Detectives and Criminal Investigators
Television Producer
[/quote]
Servers don’t make as much as any of those positions. NEXT
[/quote]
Comprehension fail.
That was my point. The listed jobs are jobs that demand $30 an hour. Servers do not, although it was advanced that it would require that wage to eliminate tipping.
Try again.
[/quote]
But a boss said it? I thought that bosses are allowed to decide monetary worth?
[/quote]
Like I posted earlier, if the market truly demands a wage be paid for a certain job, then that is what the wage should be. Your boss will determine if your efforts merit that wage.
[/quote]
He gives me more hours than any other staff memeber in our night club; therefore, he has determined my merit.
[/quote]
Good for you, I’m glad to hear your boss thinks highly of your work. (This is not sarcasm.)
People refer to servers as unskilled labour because there is no education required to perform the tasks in the job. It has NOTHING to do with how hard job is.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
People refer to servers as unskilled labour because there is no education required to perform the tasks in the job. It has NOTHING to do with how hard job is.[/quote]
Quoted so I could say that this is the definition of ‘‘unskilled’’ I was using. I was not intending it as an insult to anyone. I’ve been an unskilled worker before, too (stacked boxes for the brown box movers).
[quote]Otep wrote:
I would be happier with the situation if the owners and managers of restaurants were responsible for paying the full wage of their employees.
Alternatively, I think it’d be cool if I could engage in financial blackmail with the parents of my students, for example, giving the students inaccurate or badly mangled tutelage if their parents didn’t tip me enough to educate the youngsters properly.[/quote]
I checked out of this thread long ago - but had to comment here.
You’re a teacher? I hope you’re being sarcastic but if not then you’re just a douchebag.
Last time I checked teachers were salaried and not tipped.
I’ve chimed in to this discussion as the owner of a large 250-seat restaurant and my facts just seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Just makes me realize how stupid people are in defending their own beliefs CONTRARY TO THE FACTS AND REALITY.
Don’t listen to me though - I’ve only got 60 employees and 25 servers on staff and deal with this shit every minute of every day.
You college kids are WAY smarter than me.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
People refer to servers as unskilled labour because there is no education required to perform the tasks in the job. It has NOTHING to do with how hard job is.[/quote]
I have been to some restaurants where the wait staff is very skilled. Memorizing extensive menus and wine lists. Getting the order right without writing anything down. Keeping the table free of bread crumbs and dirty dishes. Being helpful and unobtrusive.
These are skills and are they are deservedly well compensated.