Tipping - Good Idea or Bad Idea

Off Topic
242

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]OsakaNate wrote:

I’ll say it again, there is no way a server is worth $30 an hour. Period.

[/quote]

Sure he is. If the market is left alone and is willing to pay $30 an hour then the server IS worth it.

Now I don’t know for sure but I’ll bet you have no problem with the State of Montana dictating that a completely unskilled laborer who may still be in high school MUST be paid by me the $31.52 an hour I mentioned earlier.

http://svc.mt.gov/gsd/onestop/upload/heavyconstpw.pdf

So on the premise that you DO agree with minimum/prevailing wage standards that are ultimately enforced with the barrel of a gun I have to question why the goofy teenager who just has to perform the most basic task of lifting light objects is legally worth $31.52 but the waitress who works under the free market system isn’t?[/quote]

Push, I’ve been lurking here long enough to understand your position on economics somewhat. I am not arguing for a mandatory minimum wage set by the government.

I am about to walk out the door to go to work myself at the moment, so I’ll take more time to answer your post when I get home.

For the record, I am not against the concept of tipping. I am against the convention of institutionalized tipping.

[quote] tedro wrote:

Push, please thoroughly read a post before assuming everybody is insisting on governmental price controls. It was pretty obvious to me that osaka was just saying that there is no way the free market dictates a waiter must be given $30 an hour to keep all positions filled, as saveski suggested.

I’m sorry Montana has some ridiculous minimum wage laws, but quit trying to change this into an argument no one is trying to make.[/quote]

This is closer to what I was trying to convey. Clearly did a poor job of it.

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

FTR, that’s actually a lot of money for what amounts to a PART TIME, NO SKILLS job. [/quote]

And this was my other point, also probably not as clearly articulated as I had meant it to be.

243

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

So how do the servers feel about tip-pooling?

What if your coworker is lousy but you have to share your wage with him or her? [/quote]

There’s a word for that, and it rhymes with smoshmalism. No thanks.

I think people are fooling themselves if they think they will receive the same level of service from workers receiving a somewhat higher wage, but expecting no tips. I’m not saying that’s right, but I believe that there would be a dip in guest satisfaction.

I worked as a waitress through college, making a whopping $2.13 an hour. Most of the checks I received would would have a 0.00 balance after they subtracted the taxes from my reported tips. There were days I wasn’t feeling well or wanting to go home early for some reason or another, so I’d take less tables, let people move up for me, etc. And there were other days that I would need to make a lot of money, so I’d take more tables, stay later, etc. I don’t think that this would be possible in the world of no tipping some people are talking about. Being a server is a good job for those that need flexibility and know that they can make decent money by working hard.

It’s not an easy job most of the time…it’s tough being on your feet for so long, working in a drama filled atmosphere, and interacting with shitty guests (albeit, not all are). I did it because I could basically control my own cash flow.

I think the service industry would cease to exist as we know it and head in a worse direction if we eliminate tipping.

244

All I know is that when someone does a really crumby job waiting (like beyond just slow or inattentive, like straight up rude), then I leave some loose pennies and some lint out of my pocket on the table. That way, they know I didn’t just forget to tip.

245

[quote]crimson_lily wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

So how do the servers feel about tip-pooling?

What if your coworker is lousy but you have to share your wage with him or her? [/quote]

There’s a word for that, and it rhymes with smoshmalism. No thanks.

I think people are fooling themselves if they think they will receive the same level of service from workers receiving a somewhat higher wage, but expecting no tips. I’m not saying that’s right, but I believe that there would be a dip in guest satisfaction.

I worked as a waitress through college, making a whopping $2.13 an hour. Most of the checks I received would would have a 0.00 balance after they subtracted the taxes from my reported tips. There were days I wasn’t feeling well or wanting to go home early for some reason or another, so I’d take less tables, let people move up for me, etc. And there were other days that I would need to make a lot of money, so I’d take more tables, stay later, etc. I don’t think that this would be possible in the world of no tipping some people are talking about. Being a server is a good job for those that need flexibility and know that they can make decent money by working hard.

It’s not an easy job most of the time…it’s tough being on your feet for so long, working in a drama filled atmosphere, and interacting with shitty guests (albeit, not all are). I did it because I could basically control my own cash flow.

I think the service industry would cease to exist as we know it and head in a worse direction if we eliminate tipping.
[/quote]

Where I work everyone has to tip pool in their department.

So why is the food service industry so unique? And why is it only so unique here?

Why would a change mean something terrible would evolve if there is no tipping?

247

I’m a poor college student and I still tip.
I tip:
In restaurants
When I get my hair cut
When people deliver.

It’s customary to tip in these circumstances, so I do.
15% for decent service
20% for great service
5-10% for bad.
.01$ for terrible.

I’ve spent two different summers working in the restaurant business, and while I don’t think that servers have the hardest job necessarily (I’ve also worked on a roofing crew, which I would put as harder than serving almost any day), I do think that they have to deal with the most people, and thus the largest probabilty of having an asshole as a customer.

I’ve been in a restaurant where a customer was screaming at a waitress who was too slow to get him a new glass of water. She was also handling at least 12 tables (It was a sunday, they must have lowered staff as is customary for days that are usually slow) as they got an unexpected rush. I tipped her 20% and said “sorry about the asshole.”

Due to this increased exposure to the customer, the tipping system (IMO) helps hold the server to a higher standard of service. For those of you who say “Well, they should be doing their job anyway and get a flat rate”, the restaurant industry already has a ridiculously fast turnover rate due to dealing with said assholes. Giving the servers a chance to earn a little extra money gives them that extra incentive.

I know that if I had a choice between minimum wage as a server, or minimum wage as an employee at mcdonalds, I would take the mcdonalds job due to less being expected of me and not having to deal with (as many) assholes. However, If i can make half of minimum wage with the potential of earning up to double minimum wage based on MY performance , I’d rather be a server anyday. Eliminate the tipping system and I can almost guarantee you the level of service would drop.

248

they probably make good tips =)

249

[quote]Blaze_108 wrote:
I’m a poor college student and I still tip.
I tip:
In restaurants
When I get my hair cut
When people deliver.

It’s customary to tip in these circumstances, so I do.
15% for decent service
20% for great service
5-10% for bad.
.01$ for terrible.

I’ve spent two different summers working in the restaurant business, and while I don’t think that servers have the hardest job necessarily (I’ve also worked on a roofing crew, which I would put as harder than serving almost any day), I do think that they have to deal with the most people, and thus the largest probabilty of having an asshole as a customer.

I’ve been in a restaurant where a customer was screaming at a waitress who was too slow to get him a new glass of water. She was also handling at least 12 tables (It was a sunday, they must have lowered staff as is customary for days that are usually slow) as they got an unexpected rush. I tipped her 20% and said “sorry about the asshole.”

Due to this increased exposure to the customer, the tipping system (IMO) helps hold the server to a higher standard of service. For those of you who say “Well, they should be doing their job anyway and get a flat rate”, the restaurant industry already has a ridiculously fast turnover rate due to dealing with said assholes. Giving the servers a chance to earn a little extra money gives them that extra incentive.

I know that if I had a choice between minimum wage as a server, or minimum wage as an employee at mcdonalds, I would take the mcdonalds job due to less being expected of me and not having to deal with (as many) assholes. However, If i can make half of minimum wage with the potential of earning up to double minimum wage based on MY performance , I’d rather be a server anyday. Eliminate the tipping system and I can almost guarantee you the level of service would drop.[/quote]

My thoughts exactly!

250

I would be happier with the situation if the owners and managers of restaurants were responsible for paying the full wage of their employees.

Alternatively, I think it’d be cool if I could engage in financial blackmail with the parents of my students, for example, giving the students inaccurate or badly mangled tutelage if their parents didn’t tip me enough to educate the youngsters properly.

251

Also, I think bold red lettering on a bill informing foreigners about the local custom of tipping is absolutely acceptable. If they wish to engage, good on them. If not, so be it. It gives them information about the local market, and increasing market transparency is rarely a bad thing.

253

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

If tipping is optional, and it is, what do you do if you have really bad service? Do you still leave a tip? At least the 8%?

[/quote]
If you get really bad service, and leave no tip, then the staff may think you forgot to tip. However, if you leave a dime, they will get the message.

254

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:
I would be happier with the situation if the owners and managers of restaurants were responsible for paying the full wage of their employees.[/quote]

And let’s face it…your happiness is paramount.[quote]

Alternatively, I think it’d be cool if I could engage in financial blackmail with the parents of my students, for example, giving the students inaccurate or badly mangled tutelage if their parents didn’t tip me enough to educate the youngsters properly.[/quote]

Then again, if you’re foolish enough to view tipping as nothing more than financial blackmail I have a feeling you’re already predisposed to giving your students inaccurate or badly mangled tutelage.[/quote]

Why the aspersions to character?

So someone else questioned the system and made an analogy. Bad on you for making it personal.

Not foolish, just not YOUR way of seeing it. Because I have to tell you, I don’t agree with your views about minimum wage and yet I did not feel the need to call you wacky.

I am pretty sure if Otep is in the U.S., he probably tips.

No one in this thread has said they don’t tip unless they’ve received terrible service and even then most still give 10%.

Discussing it doesn’t make us cheap, petty, bad at our jobs or foolish. Not everyone sees it your way, not everyone sees it my way. Like most things this is a subject where opinions are going to vary.

Just questioning the system Big Fella

Now I am heading off to work where I will do a good job because that is my job.

255

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]OsakaNate wrote:

I’ll say it again, there is no way a server is worth $30 an hour. Period.

[/quote]

Sure he is. If the market is left alone and is willing to pay $30 an hour then the server IS worth it.[/quote]

Point taken. However, this is not what I was trying to convey.

Right now, these are the kinds of jobs that demand $30 an hour:

http://dba.fyicenter.com/interview/Top-10-jobs-that-pay-30-per-Hour.html\

Database Administrator
Registered Nurse
Technical Writer
Fashion Designer
Accountant
Environmental Scientist
K-12 Curriculum Designer
Dental Hygienist
Detectives and Criminal Investigators
Television Producer

Now, I don’t know how current this information is, but that is what I was basing my comment on. All of these jobs require some kind of skill or education to command that wage. That was my point.

Quite the contrary. I believe that wages should be negotiated between the employer and the employee based on the employee’s skills, education and experience level and the going rate for labor in that field.

256

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:

[quote]OsakaNate wrote:

I’ll say it again, there is no way a server is worth $30 an hour. Period.

If you’d actually care to show me otherwise, go ahead and do so.
[/quote]

What you’re saying is the DEFINITION of being on a “high horse” - you’re saying that people shouldn’t get $x per hour for a profession based on how YOU feel about it, and that’s bull shit.

It’s rarely a consistent $30/hr and even then they still have to tip out. Again, get off your high fucking horse (maybe both you and the horse are high).

Here, I did some quick math for you idiots:

Avg server wage (consistent) per 5.5 HOUR SHIFT (normal shift), from a collection of server-friends I’ve spoken to – $23/hr
Avg server works 6 days a week if they’re experienced and been there a while, because they want to make as much tip as possible
Avg of 51 weeks a year worked

23 x 5.5 x 6 x 51 = $38,709

If working only 5 days a week…

23 x 5.5 x 5 x 51 - $32,257

Now…is that seriously so much money to you some of you that you are simply APPALLED such that you want to make sure the server doesn’t come close to that?

That’s what this argument is boiling down to: “I don’t think FEEL they should be making that much…”

Well, they’re not making that much to begin with. What people make per year is none of your goddamn business. Why that has an impact on whether or not you TIP (which is the basis of a lot of servers’ incomes) is absurd and frankly disgusting.

Bunch of egotistical fucks.[/quote]

Also, everyone arguing to let the market work has it right, and the current status quo is what the market has dictated. If less and less people decide to tip, the # of servers will drop and restaurant owners will be forced to pay a higher wage and food prices go up. At the end of the day, equilibrium is reached one way or another. [/quote]

But the thing is there is information asymmetry in the market. If the average person knew how much these people made with their tips, I would argue people would tip them less. Much less.
[/quote]

…And then less people would be willing to be servers (see above for what happens after that). Some people are only servers BECAUSE they make that much.

257

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
But the thing is there is information asymmetry in the market. If the average person knew how much these people made with their tips, I would argue people would tip them less. Much less.
[/quote]
…And then less people would be willing to be servers (see above for what happens after that). Some people are only servers BECAUSE they make that much. [/quote]

Because the unskilled have no other options at the current 10%+ unemployment.

258

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
you’re saying that people shouldn’t get $x per hour for a profession based on how YOU feel about it, and that’s bull shit.[/quote]

No, I’m saying that lower-skill jobs command lower wages, and higher-skill jobs command higher wages. That is all.

[quote]Here, I did some quick math for you idiots:

Avg server wage (consistent) per 5.5 HOUR SHIFT (normal shift), from a collection of server-friends I’ve spoken to – $23/hr
Avg server works 6 days a week if they’re experienced and been there a while, because they want to make as much tip as possible
Avg of 51 weeks a year worked

23 x 5.5 x 6 x 51 = $38,709

If working only 5 days a week…

23 x 5.5 x 5 x 51 - $32,257[/quote]

And both of those calculations are more than I make as a teacher. Your point?

No, it isn’t. If the market demands that servers be paid that much, then their employers should pay them that wage. Just like any other job. The point of contention is that employers are not paying them that wage, and are instead relying on tips to fill the gap.

259

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:

…23 x 5.5 x 6 x 51 = $38,709

If working only 5 days a week…

23 x 5.5 x 5 x 51 - $32,257…

[/quote]

Holy shit, that’s way too much money.

Let’s eliminate tipping by fiat and then make sure the waitstaff get paid the mandated minimum wage. In Montana, that’s $7.35 hr.

So:

…7.35 x 5.5 x 6 x 51 = $12,370.05

If working only 5 days a week…

7.35 x 5.5 x 5 x 51 - $10,308.38

THERE. That’ll teach them sorry sumbitches they aint hardly worth anything just like Osaka insists.
[/quote]

That is not at all what I am saying, but I’ve covered this in my earlier posts. I’ll say it again, though:

Wages should be negotiated between the employer and the employee based on the going rate in that particular market.

Unskilled labor commands lower wages than skilled labor.

That is what I was trying to say.

260

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I can’t help but wonder why some folks are all bent out of shape if a waitress makes $30 hr working part time and at best averages ~$30k a year. I just don’t get it. Why begrudge them that measly of an income? What do you wish they’d make? $15k? $12k?

Why not whine about a fuckin attorney who pulls in $200 hr after expenses? Or one of the most worthless cocksuckers on the face of the earth - a US Congressman who pulls in $165k + fringes? Why does the waitress catch the collective wrath of the Reform Tipping Now crowd? Do you honestly know of ANY godawful rich, part time, no skills waiters and waitresses? Really?

And if they really exist, these affluent waitpersons who bask in the luxury of their opulence before and after sauntering to their jobs at Golden Corral and Applebee’s and Luby’s Cafeteria and Famous Dave’s BBQ and Chuck’s Down Home Cafe, why not emulate them? Quit your insanely boring job sitting in a cubicle surfing T-Nation on the company dime and swim, swim, swim in the fountain of wealth that a job like waitressing at Bob’s Steakhouse provides. Do it, dudes and dudettes, do it.
[/quote]

Why not just make a bunch of straw man arguments instead?

I’m not even looking for a compelling argument, just give me a logical one. All you have tried to do is turn this into a free market vs. big government argument which NOBODY else has attempted to make.

Even in a free market you can get imbalances for a variety of reasons. In this case, as rajraj said, there is a complete lack of transparency in what waiters are actually making, and there is a huge amount of social pressure to continue this practice. Again laissez faire doesn’t necessarily lead to the best way of doing things, but no one has called on a governmental agency to fix this. I don’t think anyone has even demanded that restaurants change their practice. All I, and I’m pretty sure the rest on this side of the argument, have said is that this way is stupid and makes no sense yet it continues on because of the complacency of society and the clear benefits to the restaurant industry. This isn’t a life-threatening situation. It’s merely a debate and a discussion.

Get over yourself. If you want to defend your position, then by all means do so. Otherwise knock off the childish behavior. You are the only one that has gotten bent out of shape, and that’s simply because we disagree with you. Most of those in this thread have remained extremely civil as far as internet debates go.

BTW, just to twist your panties up a little tighter: I think we need to pay congressmen more.
(I’m not going to go off topic and debate this here, so don’t try. Feel free to start a new thread, though.)