Tipping - Good Idea or Bad Idea

[tedro]

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
Sorry, it does make you seem cheap, and not in a “dont’ want to part with my money” kind of way. In a bratty kind of way.
[/quote]
This is the only reason this trend has gone on for so long. It makes no sense. Whether they admit it or not, most tippers do so only because of the social stigma that you have placed on not tipping.

YOU providing a service (not serving food/drink) is not the same thing. Please.

I don’t even know what this is supposed to mean.

The idea of a tip (especially as it comes at the END of the service) is to make the server “work for it,” else they have no incentive. At least, that’s the idea.

So how on earth does the rest of the world get their work done without having that ‘incentive’ to ‘work for it’? OG has been asking this question for almost this whole thread and no has answered it yet.

The purpose of a tip is supposed to be to reward one that goes above and beyond the call of duty. It is not to be expected and certainly should not be a necessary incentive simply to ensure a satisfactory performance.

Through in all the tip sharing that was mentioned above and is increasingly common and that incentive argument gets completely thrown out the window. There is zero incentive if you know from the get go that all of your tips are going to be split up and disbursed.

And if they were paid a substantially higher wage, I guarantee you would be paying more for your meals – the restaurant would just pass the cost off to you.

They would be paid what the market conditions permit. Likewise for the cost of the meals. Why does the restaurant industry work different than any other industry? Why must the customer subsidize the owner’s payroll?

[quote]
Stop being a miser. You don’t have to love everything in this world, but as long as you’re living in it like the rest of us, play by the same rules.
xoxo[/quote]

The mantra of the sheep…

[DJHT]

Why must the customer subsidize the owner’s payroll?

Really? That happens in every business. What do you do for a living, since you have all the answers to life and the rest of us are just swimming with the group.

[tedro]

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
You’d think that the biggest whiners over tipping would seriously consider that the waitstaff are HANDLING YOUR FOOD! Your FOOD! Think about that for a moment.[/quote]

This is the only reason I tip, which is disgraceful and frankly takes much of the enjoyment out of eating out. I don’t want to have to worry about the proper amount to tip so my food doesn’t get spit on the next time I come in. I want to come in to a restaurant, get my food(whether it’s served or not frankly doesn’t matter, the best bbq joints serve you lunch line style and are not allowed to accept tips), be treated with respect and in turn be respectful, and pay a previously agreed upon amount. Treating staff with respect is one thing that should be expected, but this is a completely different argument. Expecting a customer to supplement your wages because your boss refuses to pay you what the job demands is nonsensical on multiple levels.

[tedro]

[quote]DJHT wrote:
Why must the customer subsidize the owner’s payroll?

Really? That happens in every business. What do you do for a living, since you have all the answers to life and the rest of us are just swimming with the group. [/quote]

No, what happens in every other business is management must figure out how to properly price and budget so that they can sustain the business. If they can’t pay their employees a rate that corresponds with the market conditions for the job, they must figure out how to increase revenues to make sure they don’t have a shortage of employees. I don’t pay the cashier his wage when I go through the grocery store line. I don’t pay the bank teller a little extra when I deposit a check. Again, it is not my responsibility to make sure your employees are properly compensated. If I come in and order something, knowing the price beforehand, I will gladly pay for it in the end, but it makes no sense to pay above and beyond the agreed upon price when you simply are recieving only what was agreed upon in the first place.

I’m not sure what my living has to do with forming a logical argument. If you wish to know personal details about my life you can PM me and I may or may not answer them.

[PonceDeLeon]

Another reason why OG’s “auditing analysis” doesn’t quite apply as broadly as her thread implies:

She works in a CASINO, where people who might come up big in gambling tend to tip (from feeling the high of winning big) absurd amounts that are NOT the norm with customers eating at traditional dining establishments.

How often does someone who just came up $2000 in one hour tip MUCH more than the $3-5 they might normally tip on a non-fast food meal (say $15 or so) ? I’ve seen people tip a solid $40-60 to one person where that person might have normally gotten a few bucks. THAT is why OG’s $38/hr is skewed. Customer’s aren’t gambling at most restaurants or tipping with their gambling winnings.

[PonceDeLeon]

[quote]tedro wrote:

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
Sorry, it does make you seem cheap, and not in a “dont’ want to part with my money” kind of way. In a bratty kind of way.
[/quote]
This is the only reason this trend has gone on for so long. It makes no sense. Whether they admit it or not, most tippers do so only because of the social stigma that you have placed on not tipping.

YOU providing a service (not serving food/drink) is not the same thing. Please.

I don’t even know what this is supposed to mean.

The idea of a tip (especially as it comes at the END of the service) is to make the server “work for it,” else they have no incentive. At least, that’s the idea.

So how on earth does the rest of the world get their work done without having that ‘incentive’ to ‘work for it’? OG has been asking this question for almost this whole thread and no has answered it yet.

The purpose of a tip is supposed to be to reward one that goes above and beyond the call of duty. It is not to be expected and certainly should not be a necessary incentive simply to ensure a satisfactory performance.

Through in all the tip sharing that was mentioned above and is increasingly common and that incentive argument gets completely thrown out the window. There is zero incentive if you know from the get go that all of your tips are going to be split up and disbursed.

And if they were paid a substantially higher wage, I guarantee you would be paying more for your meals – the restaurant would just pass the cost off to you.

They would be paid what the market conditions permit. Likewise for the cost of the meals. Why does the restaurant industry work different than any other industry? Why must the customer subsidize the owner’s payroll?

[quote]
Stop being a miser. You don’t have to love everything in this world, but as long as you’re living in it like the rest of us, play by the same rules.
xoxo[/quote]

The mantra of the sheep…[/quote]

And until the structure CHANGES in the food/drink industry, it is the structure in place and the livelihood of many servers depends on good tipping customers.

If the argument is: “Well, they should look for another job!”

The counter is that most jobs are 9-5 and conflict with, say, the school schedule of a student-server, hence the popularity of a server-type job for people who need to work a gig with a flexible schedule.

And your argument that owners can find ways to subsidize their costs for providing meals is absurd. Most businesses don’t have the high input costs of restaurants, including the support staff often necessary simply to run the place. It is a different animal.

[DJHT]

[quote]tedro wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:
Why must the customer subsidize the owner’s payroll?

Really? That happens in every business. What do you do for a living, since you have all the answers to life and the rest of us are just swimming with the group. [/quote]

No, what happens in every other business is management must figure out how to properly price and budget so that they can sustain the business. If they can’t pay their employees a rate that corresponds with the market conditions for the job, they must figure out how to increase revenues to make sure they don’t have a shortage of employees. I don’t pay the cashier his wage when I go through the grocery store line. I don’t pay the bank teller a little extra when I deposit a check. Again, it is not my responsibility to make sure your employees are properly compensated. If I come in and order something, knowing the price beforehand, I will gladly pay for it in the end, but it makes no sense to pay above and beyond the agreed upon price when you simply are recieving only what was agreed upon in the first place.

I’m not sure what my living has to do with forming a logical argument. If you wish to know personal details about my life you can PM me and I may or may not answer them.[/quote]

Its a simple question of your profession, you whole argument is an opinion. If you have formal business education or own a business then you would actually have something to base your opinion on. However your failure to share that information displays the fact your argument is your opinion. I could care less about your personal life again just a simple question. I am not going to expond on chemical engineering due to the fact I have no formal education on this matter. However you feel that you have all the answers and I asked how?

[binky]

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Nope, not gonna tip you. Now… if they have some amazing bare chested men serving my coffee, okay well then maybe.

[/quote]

Their coffee is quite good, surprisingly. How can you not tip a girl in a bikini in 30 degree weather?

I don’t mind tipping. I enjoy tipping good service more than being a cheapskate for poor service.

[tedro]

[quote]DJHT wrote:
Its a simple question of your profession, you whole argument is an opinion. If you have formal business education or own a business then you would actually have something to base your opinion on. However your failure to share that information displays the fact your argument is your opinion. I could care less about your personal life again just a simple question. I am not going to expond on chemical engineering due to the fact I have no formal education on this matter. However you feel that you have all the answers and I asked how? [/quote]

My argument is based on sound logic and an understanding of basic economic principles. A logical argument need not be derived from anything but the facts involved. And that facts are that what feels good and what you want and what you think people deserve are completely irrelevant to what the market dictates. Limiting an argument only to those of your liking is the kind of elitism that leads to nonsensical practices such as this one. What I do or don’t do in no way makes me any more or less qualifed to debate basic economic principles.

In fact, I would argue the very opposite here. It is those without a hand in the stake that will have the most unbiased argument. This isn’t rocket science it’s basic market principles. You know you have (had?) it good as a waiter, and you know full well the business owner has it good. In what other industry does the owner get to cut his payroll without cutting jobs, while the employees make bank all because of societal pressures to pay above and beyond the agreed upon price?

[DJHT]

[quote]tedro wrote:

[quote]DJHT wrote:
Its a simple question of your profession, you whole argument is an opinion. If you have formal business education or own a business then you would actually have something to base your opinion on. However your failure to share that information displays the fact your argument is your opinion. I could care less about your personal life again just a simple question. I am not going to expond on chemical engineering due to the fact I have no formal education on this matter. However you feel that you have all the answers and I asked how? [/quote]

My argument is based on sound logic and an understanding of basic economic principles. A logical argument need not be derived from anything but the facts involved. And that facts are that what feels good and what you want and what you think people deserve are completely irrelevant to what the market dictates. Limiting an argument only to those of your liking is the kind of elitism that leads to nonsensical practices such as this one. What I do or don’t do in no way makes me any more or less qualifed to debate basic economic principles.

In fact, I would argue the very opposite here. It is those without a hand in the stake that will have the most unbiased argument. This isn’t rocket science it’s basic market principles. You know you have (had?) it good as a waiter, and you know full well the business owner has it good. In what other industry does the owner get to cut his payroll without cutting jobs, while the employees make bank all because of societal pressures to pay above and beyond the agreed upon price?[/quote]

In this thread there has been two business owners that debate your point of “sound” logical argument. Also if you have no formal education in business how do you know basic economic principles? Some how, again you fail to understand that business owners are in business to make money, they take the risk and they suffer if failed. It is painfully obvious you have no background in this and you have never been a server. So your own opinion is just that an opinion. You can call the rest of us whatever you want however some of us with the education and the background just shake our heads at your youthful idealistic argument.

[DJHT]

^ I already tried push.

[tedro]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Ahhh…finally…a concession that the market should dictate the answers here. Thank you.
[/quote]
A concession? That’s been my contention the whole time. I go in to a restaurant, pay my bill as it is received, and am called a cheapskate and other names if I don’t voluntarily pay extra? This isn’t about what the market dictates. This is about a society that has been lured into paying increasingly higher tips all in the name of social norms. 99% of the time I can go to a restaurant and leave no tip and receive the exact same service and goods. Very rarely do I happen upon the same waiter twice. A tip is only left because society, media, etc. has made us feel obligated to doing so. We have no such obligation to personally pay a restaurant owners waitstaff. If the waitstaff then has a complaint about not getting paid fairly, that complaint would logically be with management, not with the customer.

[quote]
Now…the market has dictated that in the restaurant business tipping the waitstaff is the way to go. If the market wishes to change to reflect your philosophy then LET the market do so.

If you don’t agree then the alternative is to invite Big Brother into the party with his heavy handed, “I will choke you to death if you don’t comply” approach.[/quote]

Fair enough, but then the market also dictates that tipping the waitstaff is VOLUNTARY, and thereby should not be looked down upon if I choose not to pay extra for the services rendered. If the restaurant wants to add a 15% gratuity automatically and print it in the menu, fine by me. But don’t try telling me I’m trying to force a market change because I don’t buy into a nonsensical custom.

Push, have you read all 9 pages of this? The only arguments that have even been put forth for the current system is because otherwise the food would cost too much, or waiters work so hard that they are entitled to it, or it gives them an incentive to work hard. These arguments are all baloney and you know it. I am saying to let the market decide if any of these arguments hold any salt. Quit hiding behind this farcical nonsense of guilt-tripping your customers into paying more than what is due in the so-called name of fairness. If you think the service you recieved was above and beyond the expectations of a waiter, then by all means leave a tip, but don’t guilt trip the rest of us into doing it for getting only what is expected, no more sometimes less.

[tedro]

[quote]DJHT wrote:
In this thread there has been two business owners that debate your point of “sound” logical argument. Also if you have no formal education in business how do you know basic economic principles?
[/quote]
First, I never answered your question about my education or business experience, so it would be wise of you to hold off on assumptions. Second, is this a serious question? One must have a formal business education to know anything about econ? Seriously?

Some how, again you fail to understand that business owners are in business to make money, they take the risk and they suffer if failed.

Exactly. And waiters work to get paid. And I go to a restaurant for a meal and pay the bill accordingly. If an owner can’t manage to pay his employees and offer food at a price that meets demand, then as you say, he will fail. Where exactly does the customer paying the waiters wages come into play?

[quote]
It is painfully obvious you have no background in this and you have never been a server. So your own opinion is just that an opinion. You can call the rest of us whatever you want however some of us with the education and the background just shake our heads at your youthful idealistic argument. [/quote]

LOL. I’ve yet to hear a sound argument of any sort out of you (in this thread), or actually an argument of any sort. It seems to me you have simply accepted things as they are, and fallen into the trap that the minority here is automatically the crazy one (or cheapskate in this case) for not buying into this.

[saveski]

[quote]tedro wrote:

is VOLUNTARY, and thereby should not be looked down upon if I choose not to pay extra for the services rendered. [/quote]

[/quote]

Tedro - you WILL be looked down upon for being a cheap-ass, no-tipper when you know that SERVERS GET PAID by tips - like it or not. If you don’t tip your server well for good service then you’re being an asshole - that’s reality. I know. I have 25 servers on payroll.

And if I jack the menu up 15% and say you now don’t have to tip - that’s OK?!

(Push - good job but the dude ain’t hearing you.)

It really is interesting to hear the rationale from a non-tipper. The guy is not stupid but just has to defend his dumb notion of how servers SHOULD be paid, even though REALITY SAYS OTHERWISE.

Done beating this horse. Have to cash out my waitresses. Hope none of 'em got stiffed but that’s the way it goes - got some cheap, ignorant, no-tipping shit-heads out there.

[OsakaNate]

[quote]saveski wrote:

[quote]OsakaNate wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:

I just don’t like the pricks that fuck over a server JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN.

[/quote]

You mean like the guy that only pays them $2.65 an hour?[/quote]

Einstein, how are they getting fucked over when they’re pulling in $100-$300 a night?

Sorry, but that’s the GOING RATE FOR SERVERS. Your silly premise is that I pay them $30 an hour - and then people like you won’t be able to go out to eat BECAUSE YOU CAN’T AFFORD IT.

Econ 101 - will the little kids stay out of this please?
[/quote]

Please.

There is no way in hell that a waiter/waitress job is worth $100-300 a night. Not for a gig that requires 0 education and minimal skills.

Even if you average that at $200 a night, at 5 nights a week that’s $1000. For 52 weeks of the year it’s $52000 for the year.

Teachers in elementary schools get paid about $30000. This requires more education than a server, more time, and just as much ‘‘distress’’ dealing with kids and their parents as servers do with customers. So if you’re trying to argue that a server is really worth $30 an hour, seriously, GTFO.

[OsakaNate]

[quote]tedro wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:
You’re missing the concept that SERVERS RELY ON TIPS. I’m not aware of any TIPLESS servers so if you want your burger to be $8 and not $10 - read it again, slowly - SERVERS RELY ON TIPS.
[/quote]
Wrong. Servers, like any other employee, rely on compensation. You, as the owner, are the one responsible for making sure they are duly compensated for their duties. I, as the customer, am only responsible for paying an agreed upon price for the goods and/or services rendered. It is not my duty to see to it that your employees are properly compensated.

If the burger and service is worth $10, I have no problem paying it, assuming you were forthright in the beginning with how much that particular menu item was going to cost me.
[/quote]

This.

Seems to work perfectly well in the country that I currently reside in.

[saveski]

[quote]OsakaNate wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:

[quote]OsakaNate wrote:

[quote]saveski wrote:

I just don’t like the pricks that fuck over a server JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN.

[/quote]

You mean like the guy that only pays them $2.65 an hour?[/quote]

Einstein, how are they getting fucked over when they’re pulling in $100-$300 a night?

Sorry, but that’s the GOING RATE FOR SERVERS. Your silly premise is that I pay them $30 an hour - and then people like you won’t be able to go out to eat BECAUSE YOU CAN’T AFFORD IT.

Econ 101 - will the little kids stay out of this please?
[/quote]

Please.

There is no way in hell that a waiter/waitress job is worth $100-300 a night. Not for a gig that requires 0 education and minimal skills.

Even if you average that at $200 a night, at 5 nights a week that’s $1000. For 52 weeks of the year it’s $52000 for the year.

Teachers in elementary schools get paid about $30000. This requires more education than a server, more time, and just as much ‘‘distress’’ dealing with kids and their parents as servers do with customers. So if you’re trying to argue that a server is really worth $30 an hour, seriously, GTFO.
[/quote]

God fucking help me. Not even gonna bother with this one. Wow.

I’d offer you a busser position but you’re too far away. Mentally, you do have it for bussing.