Tiki Barber Squats Over 900

Training Powerlifting
41

good post, Jumanji

although, i disagree about WSMers and the like not being able to compete in NFL and the like because of elastic qualities and the like.

strongman takes a lot of elasticity. it’s just under very heavy load. are RFD and reaction load dependant? or are they the ability to reach peak power/force/velocity as quickly as possible and absorb and react to as much power/force/velocity as possible? doing this is not as load dependant as many think.

P.S. what the hell is power? i know what force is and what velocity is, and i know that those are the two ends of the same curve and that because of how power is discussed it must be somewhere on that curve. is it the the middle of the curve? what is an exercise that best expresses peak power output?

i look forward to your response.

42

i by no means whatsoever meant to disrespect tiki barber or football players at all, i simply said “WITH” the “RIGHT TRAINING” someone like Zydrunas Savickas or Raimond Bergmanis can make the switch to football. You simply cannot deny the power of someone who can log press 440 pounds over their head or pull trucks. Speaking of conditioning they got that covered too. doing 6 plus hours of strongman training a day in immense heat or cold. By the way, i used to play football and believe me strength matters a hell of a lot, a guy with a 700 pound benchpress as a lineman has “the potential” to drive someone back real far.

p.s. please don’t turn this into a rant or even make assumptions about someone you don’t know anything about.

43


and by the way, please do not assume i am some newbie.

like they say a pic is worth a 1000 words

44

Hey Everybody! Warriork’s a Newbie! Let’s Point and Laugh at Warriork!

Newbie!

Newbie!

Newbie!

45

[quote]warriork wrote:
i by no means whatsoever meant to disrespect tiki barber or football players at all, i simply said “WITH” the “RIGHT TRAINING” someone like Zydrunas Savickas or Raimond Bergmanis can make the switch to football. You simply cannot deny the power of someone who can log press 440 pounds over their head or pull trucks. Speaking of conditioning they got that covered too. doing 6 plus hours of strongman training a day in immense heat or cold. By the way, i used to play football and believe me strength matters a hell of a lot, a guy with a 700 pound benchpress as a lineman has “the potential” to drive someone back real far.

p.s. please don’t turn this into a rant or even make assumptions about someone you don’t know anything about.[/quote]

Strength matters a hell of alot huh? Wow, you really went out on a limb there…obviously.

You look real strong, why are you watching on Sunday?

Because strength isn’t the key limiting factor, it is power and speed… your argument still centers around strength. I give you they are strong. But not fast, agile, coordinated, etc… that is athleticism…picking up stones is a disply od raw strength…the two are vastly different.

So you take out your anger on the deadlift bar…it is moving at a pace that is good for you… Tiki isn’t.

Anyone of the WSM can play football. They just have to be fast enough, and have the skill. Since they don’t have these qualities and skills, they compete against other slow guys and display amazing feats of pure strength and pure strength endurance.

That being said, I think Mario might be elastic and quick enough… do they test for steroids in WSM? But, he could probably play FB or Inside LB’er…

still not convinced he can play in the open field… have seen way too many huge beasts look like they had an extra chromosone per gene when they hit the field…

We will know when one of these goliaths hit the field. But remember, the key seperator in FB from DI to the pros isn’t strength, or strength endurance… it is speed and agility…

I suppose you have a plan for that little fact…

I am sure all of those guys would love to hear it… btw, isn’t the best WSM guy in the US a former FB player and current S&C coach? Why did he not continue in the pros?

Hmmmmm.

I love the wrath of very strong, very slow white dudes…

I will give you this though…that is a nice pull.

46

[quote]wufwugy wrote:
good post, Jumanji

although, i disagree about WSMers and the like not being able to compete in NFL and the like because of elastic qualities and the like.

strongman takes a lot of elasticity. it’s just under very heavy load. are RFD and reaction load dependant? or are they the ability to reach peak power/force/velocity as quickly as possible and absorb and react to as much power/force/velocity as possible? doing this is not as load dependant as many think.

P.S. what the hell is power? i know what force is and what velocity is, and i know that those are the two ends of the same curve and that because of how power is discussed it must be somewhere on that curve. is it the the middle of the curve? what is an exercise that best expresses peak power output?

i look forward to your response.[/quote]

Wuf~

I merely align the force curve so that there is MaxStrength on one side and MaxSpeed on the other. In between I differentiate between the two ways to create MaxForce… by Force = WEIGHT x rate and Power = weight x RATE…

both use the opposite means of producing high force… i hope this makes sense…

and I agree the ability to absorb high force isn’t weight/load dependent… but, it is rate dependent.

That is why functional training is so ridiculous…no force, then after force is increase, no rate…

flexibility, stabilization, muscle stiffness, inhibitory responses: all rate specific.

Now, this won’t sell any perform better crap for juan carlos and the crew, but it is addressed by many of the contributors here…

Here is where my point really gets hammered home:

Let’s try to produce peak power in Tiki Barber and a strong guy.

Peak power is produced near 75% of MaxS in athletes who have a very small power deficit. So let’s see what weight Tiki would use to produce Peak power:

BW: 210
BW Squatted: 190
Max Squat: 610

So 610+190 = 800 pounds squatted.

Now, max Power is produced at 75% or 600 pounds minus his squatted BW… so he throw on 4 wheels and some collars.

Now let’s see the strong guy. He is inefficient with Power Prosuction and is on the lower end of the spectrum with peak power displayed at 50% of his max (most athletes display peak power at 50-75% OF maxS).

So BW:210
BW Squatted: 190
Max Squat: 650 (this guy is the top dog squatter in the gym…yeah!!)

So 650 + 190 = 840 lbs squatted.

Take 50% of that and subtract the BW Squatted, and you have 420 - 190 = 230.

So Tiki displays peak power with 410, but our Superhero displays max Power with 230…hmmm.

Can you say Power deficit?

Captain Bench Press best not meet Tiki in the hole…

The answer to all of this according to most S&C guys?

Get’em stronger!!!

All or boy does is have to set his weigthroom goals at (410+190)/50%…or raise his squat to 1200lbs…

No problemo…yeah right.

Strength and strength endurance do nothing to address power deficit. They do build an awesome foundation for future power development, but…

Ths focus is power.

Raise strength, minimize power deficit, raise strength more, etc, etc…

often times to raise strength, hypertrophy must occur. CT talked about what is known as a strength deficit. You can use this to see if and when you really need to gain weight to get stronger, or just need good methods.

I belive Peak Power is achieved in the snatch. But, I use squats of all sorts: jump squats, reactive squats, Iso-Ballistic, etc.

Medicine Ball work is awesome.

And to accentuate to force or power absorption aspect, i use depth protocols, including overspeed depth jumps (bands).

Squats, when coupled with depth protocols are awesome for using appropriate rate for power development.

plus, the high rate produces plantar flexor stiffness.

Not a huge issue in the road grater linemen, but all fast guys need the help with this aspect. Stiffness = spring = speed.

Anyway, I hope this helps. Knock it back to me with questions and / or what you use… I love your posts. They make me think.

Oh, btw RFD or explosive strength has to be trained seperately from MaxS work. MaxS work is enhanced by this training. This is why Louie uses Dynamic Day, and uses Concentric only movements… emphasizing speed!! It must be trained to fire fast through a very heavy load, and many don’t address it…it is more than just trying to move the weight fast…

J

47

Barber has been one of the best backs in the league since staring this training.

48

I just want to say that I watched the video on SI.com of Tiki training and he is squatting a lot of with the safety squat position from the suspended or bottom position.

I’d also like to say that strength is only one component of being an athlete, along with speed, agility, quickness, etcc. But playing a particular sport is a skill and if you have not developed those skills you will only be so effective if you try to play a new game. So while Zavickas is a very strong man, chances are being from Europe he has never played football before and he would not be very good at first, but if he developed his skills of playing football like he did as a strongman he’d probably do all right. I have heard that he has an incredible vertical so he obviously has some athletic ability beyond his strength.

49

[quote]boonville410 wrote:
Scott Shetler wrote:
Viking69 wrote:
Just like when I played ball, all the players lifts are mostly BS. 1/4 500lb squats, bounce presses,etc, etc.

Try using your arms next time you squat to pull you up, you could add 200lbs.

I want my trainer to be a fat guy who has never been in the shape I wanna be in. Hooray.

He’s a football player, not a weightlifter or powerlifter. Honestly it doesn’t matter which lifts he does or doesn’t do as long as his performance improves. Deny he isn’t having one of his better seasons yet.

BTW-his trainer is a former powerlifting champ and strongman competitor so yeah, he may not be the pretty boys that most here are so fond of, but I am sure he knows a tad bit more about strength development than most of the internet superstars here. Think a pretty physique matters in football? Look at David “wonderboy” Boston, man, being all jacked and shredded certainly helped him! Oh wait, does he still play? Well, at least he has abs!

Gimme a break…

I did not imply that the trainer isn’t strong or intelligent. I implied that he’s a fat ass and that he needs to exercise more before he dies of a heart attack.[/quote]

See Big Martin’s post above and ask yourself again if Tiki’s trainer works out. Do some research, pretty little “t-abs” aren’t always an indicator…

50

[quote]Scott Shetler wrote:
boonville410 wrote:
Scott Shetler wrote:
Viking69 wrote:
Just like when I played ball, all the players lifts are mostly BS. 1/4 500lb squats, bounce presses,etc, etc.

Try using your arms next time you squat to pull you up, you could add 200lbs.

I want my trainer to be a fat guy who has never been in the shape I wanna be in. Hooray.

He’s a football player, not a weightlifter or powerlifter. Honestly it doesn’t matter which lifts he does or doesn’t do as long as his performance improves. Deny he isn’t having one of his better seasons yet.

BTW-his trainer is a former powerlifting champ and strongman competitor so yeah, he may not be the pretty boys that most here are so fond of, but I am sure he knows a tad bit more about strength development than most of the internet superstars here. Think a pretty physique matters in football? Look at David “wonderboy” Boston, man, being all jacked and shredded certainly helped him! Oh wait, does he still play? Well, at least he has abs!

Gimme a break…

I did not imply that the trainer isn’t strong or intelligent. I implied that he’s a fat ass and that he needs to exercise more before he dies of a heart attack.

See Big Martin’s post above and ask yourself again if Tiki’s trainer works out. Do some research, pretty little “t-abs” aren’t always an indicator…

[/quote]

Scott,

What is Big martin’s new name here… or is it the same. I haven’t talked with him in a while… super bright kid. Miss seeing him post,

Thanks.

JR

51

WTF did Jumanji say in his long post? There’s no way I’m reading 100 bullet items. haha.

52

[quote]Jumanji wrote:
What is Big martin’s new name here… or is it the same. I haven’t talked with him in a while… super bright kid. Miss seeing him post,

Thanks.

JR[/quote]

seems to still be big mart and anything that ends with …rb

53

[quote]RHINO928 wrote:
Barber has been one of the best backs in the league since staring this training. [/quote]

i particularly dig how he holds the football the way it should be held. you know, because fumbling is for fuck ups.

54

J,

so you say the snatch is the best peak power exercise? i’ve heard that suggestion before, though, i would’ve guessed the VJ to be the best peak power exercise (if it’s even possible for an exercise to be considered the best way to express peak power).

how, then, do you think the power and elastic capabilities of elite OLers is concerning football? if they had the football specific skills do you think that guys like Shane Hammon and Hosein Reza Zadeh would make good linemen?

you’ve said before that if you can squat 2.5X bodyweight, but have a bad VJ then something is terribly wrong. it’s also been said that the VJ is the single best indicator of athletic prowess. well, every elite strongman can squat at least 2.5X bodyweight, because of the rigors of their sport and the intelligence of their training i bet they have pretty sweet VJs.

if the VJ is the best indicator of football performance (excluding football specific stuff, of course) then why wouldn’t WSM guys have what it takes (power-wise) to play in the NFL?

BTW, it’s been said that the jerk is very close to the snatch when it comes to peaking power. it may just be me, but some of the standing presses in strongman look like they’re using similar leg drive as jerking (which is where most of the power comes from).

so let’s say that some elite strongmen do have adequate strength (duh), RFD, and reactivity (which equates to adequate power development) to play elite football. concerning physical attributes, what are they lacking? elasticity, muscle stiffness, rate?

do those things encompass more or other things than strength, RFD, and reaction? i only ask because i’m wary of DB speak. not because i think it’s wrong, but because i dont have any good defintions of them and think they’re an alteration of already understood terminology. i’ve browsed Kelly Baggett’s stuff concerning DB speak, maybe i should spend more time looking into it.

55

[quote]RickJames wrote:
WTF did Jumanji say in his long post? There’s no way I’m reading 100 bullet items. haha.
[/quote]
he said that RickJames sucks a very, very large cock.

sorry you missed that.

56

[quote]wufwugy wrote:
RHINO928 wrote:
Barber has been one of the best backs in the league since staring this training.

i particularly dig how he holds the football the way it should be held. you know, because fumbling is for fuck ups.[/quote]

I am not at all a Giants fan, but Tiki is one of the best, no question.

I know he started holding the ball high to cut back on fumbles and it seems to be working well.

Why doesn’t everyone do this?

57

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
wufwugy wrote:
RHINO928 wrote:
Barber has been one of the best backs in the league since staring this training.

i particularly dig how he holds the football the way it should be held. you know, because fumbling is for fuck ups.

I am not at all a Giants fan, but Tiki is one of the best, no question.

I know he started holding the ball high to cut back on fumbles and it seems to be working well.

Why doesn’t everyone do this?[/quote]

because they’re silver spooned meatheads who never had to work a job or learn to do something differently than they’re naturally inclined.

or sorta.

personally, i consider fumbling to be large douchebaggery. hold onto the fucking ball. it’s not that hard. i wonder if attentive fathers in the NFL understand the importance of holding onto the small thing in your arms.

58

[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
popasquat wrote:
carter12 wrote:
Yea, the announcers often exagerate their numbers.
Yesterday during the LSU/Alabama game, the announcer said LSU’s running back could bench press 600.

Like JMB said, use common sense.

He was talking about the fullback Kevin Steltz, and yes he can. In high school he benched a sick 530.

Why, did you see him do it? Backing up a hard to believe claim with an even harder to believe claim is not going to convince anyone.
[/quote]

Here maybe this will help you believe more

http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051104/SPORTS0202/511040324/1001/SPORTS

And I know he benched 495 the summer going into his senior year at Rummel because it is still the school record. The reason 530 isn’t the record is because the football team only maxes out the summer before and once the their senior season is down what ever records they break don’t count. Also I think he inclined around 415 at the same summer. So 530 by the time he left Rummel isn’t BS.

59

[quote]Scott Shetler wrote:
See Big Martin’s post above and ask yourself again if Tiki’s trainer works out. Do some research, pretty little “t-abs” aren’t always an indicator…

[/quote]

Do some research, being grossly fat is unhealthy.

60

wufwugy - I just realized that the last three letters in your handle are not guy…

Anyway, I believe the thrust of why strongmen wouldn’t make great linemen is because they lack the reactive strength to effectively move quickly in response to other fast human beings.

For example, very few strongmen actually do depth jumps or ballistic training. A vast majority of the training I see in the heavies may involve some jumping for height, but, as Jumanji as alluded to, very few (if any, actually, I think maybe Jesse does but you’d have to ask him for certain) will actually jump off of a height and rebound upwards. This is the type of adaptation (stiffness of the plantar flexors is what Jumanji calls it, I don’t like this phrase. It implies a lack of flexibility that needs to be there to avoid injury.) is what is required to make quick non-linear movements to catch a running back or a wide receiver.

I know it looks like a lot of the heavies are quick on their feet and fairly agile, but truth be told, they’re really not. One of the hallmarks of high reactive strength is only having your foot touching the ground for a very short period when sprinting/agile movements. If you watch them move from stone to stone, the balls of their feet will actually stay in contact with the ground for a long time, or longer than a very agile person would anyway (like Barry Sanders, Faulk, etc.).

With regards to peak power output - the jerk is actually substantially less powerful than the power snatch, though it is more powerful than most other lifts. Something most people tent to ignore is that power actually = work/time. Work includes a distance component, so (force x distance)/time. This means that the power snatch out performs the jerk considerably due to the greater distance the bar travels, “artifically inflating” it a little, if you will. It’s not actually gross power output that most athletes are interested in, though, but rate of force development, as Jumanji has said in a roundabout way. Luckily, the power snatch excells at this too, but the jerk is much closer to the P-snatch in RFD than power output, so it is more applicable to the athlete than power output would imply.

The log press is also much slower than the jerk - the dip phase is generally about twice as long due to stabilization issues, especially with the 12 and 13 inch logs. Weight used is also significantly less than in the jerk due to the forward shift of center of gravity due to the thickness of the log.

Jumanji, I think we use different force curves. Ideally, what the force production curve should look like is a checkmark, with the bottom of the check being as sharp as possible to represent very quick reversal of absorbed force, be it catching a clean, stopping another lineman, or the small force of your foot hitting the ground when sprinting. For a power oriented athlete, such as a running back, the slope of the back part of the check would also be as steep as possible to represent achieving a high proportion of F-Max as quickly as possible. The problem with most American coaching is, of course, that they try to increase F-Max, assuming the slope will increase right along with it. As you (Jumanji) have said, though, it doesn’t increase in a 1:1 relationship with F-Max if too much time is spent training for a huge squat/bench.

I actually think the Westside guys devote too much time to speed work for the opposite of this reason, but that’s a sidebar…

You’ll notice I was talking about the heavyweight strongmen in this post… it’s a little bit of a different ballgame with the lighteight pros. They do tend to be much quicker and more agile. Don’t know if you’ve ever met Willie Wessels, but he’s a fast mofo. I bet Brad’s pretty quick too :slight_smile:

-Dan