[quote]Modi wrote:
AlbertaBeef wrote:
You should probably test your 1RM in leg extensions (this being the ONLY time anyone would EVER touch a leg extension machine) and then test your 1RM in leg curls.
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Just a couple of comments here…first who does a 1RM isolation exercise? If you are going to do this, warm up a ton. Then stretch, then warm up some more. If you don’t tear your quad or end up with patella tendinitis, good luck.
The general consensus on quad to hamstring ratio is 60-80%. Expecting your hams to be atleast 80% of your quads is at the very high end of that range.
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You’re right. I had a dumbass moment, there. Thanks for catching me on it.
On second thought, it would be MUCH better to test the 8RM for quad extensions and ham curls.
The other advice posted here is also very, very good:
stretching hams, quads, and hip flexors
glute activation work
strengthen the PC (low back, glutes, hams, calves)
soft tissue work (ART, myofascial release, foam roller)
as, come to think of it, my rehab also incorporated many of those things.
[quote]Leafblighter wrote:
Matgic wrote:
Not sure I completely agree either of these statements.
A tight muscle is usually a weak muscle? I think it’s generally the other way around. And when we say “weak” we are referring specifically to the proportions in the individual I assume. Anyway, the “caveman” posture we often see on people who do way to much benching and not enough rowing is generally due to shortened (tight) internal rotators, pec minor, front delt, etc in the front of the body. This means that the muscles on the back are too weak to offer enough pull back in the opposite direction of the “caveman” posture.
I actually thought about this shortly after my post that I might have it backwards, and I think you’re right.
The second issue I see is that you say his hamstrings are probably weak and his glutes are shut down. If that is the case, then what are the muscles that are working order to complete the lift (assuming technique is ideal). It’s not that I disagree with the glutes necessarily being shut down, but his soreness is likely due to his hamstrings taking the brunt of the work.
The reason I’m thinking his hamstrings may be weak (proportionately) is the fact that he says they are so sore he can’t even touch them after every workout. If they were super strong, I’d think other weak points in the chain would shut down the movement before he could toast the hamstrings like that. So my guess (which is most certainly a guess since I’m not trained in this stuff) is that the hamstrings are weak, thus tight, and as a result overstretched during the movement and not used to firing in such a stretched out position.
Normally I don’t like to speculate about this stuff with other people’s bodies, but since my final recommendations are good practice for anyone, I won’t feel so bad if my speculations as to the cause are incorrect.
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Yea, I’ll agree with the latter. It’s definelty tough to pinpoint with working with the guy. And even working with him, it might still be a bit hard.
I think the glute activation and whatnot is probably a good call.
[quote]AlbertaBeef wrote:
You should probably test your 1RM in leg extensions (this being the ONLY time anyone would EVER touch a leg extension machine) and then test your 1RM in leg curls.
If your 1RM for leg curls isn’t at least 80% of your leg extensions, then you have a problem.
I used to have the same problems as you describe and I didn’t stop tearing/pulling hamstrings until I fixed this imbalance in myself.
Beef[/quote]
I’ve always been a little confused by using leg extension/curl machines to test the strenth ratios of the quads and hamstrings.
I feel like the variance in machine and person are too great to test this accurately. Also, just because it tests the strength in a limited (or “controlled”) setting, it won’t test for improper firing patterns and intramuscular coordination.
I don’t really have a better solution, but I just don’t think that those tests should be the be-all-end-all.
Skipped ahead a bit so I dont know if this has been mentioned, but Ive known a few people who have had back problems(ie a very tight lower back) and this has come down to poor flexibility in the hams. Now you mentioned earlier you did single leg stiff leg deads because of a tight lower back.
Start stretching those hammies whenever you have te time and before any workout involving deads, GM ectand your problem should get better pretty quick.
I have seen this with quite a few people at work and It has worked for them in most cases.
Skipped ahead a bit so I dont know if this has been mentioned, but Ive known a few people who have had back problems(ie a very tight lower back) and this has come down to poor flexibility in the hams. Now you mentioned earlier you did single leg stiff leg deads because of a tight lower back.
Start stretching those hammies whenever you have te time and before any workout involving deads, GM ectand your problem should get better pretty quick.
I have seen this with quite a few people at work and It has worked for them in most cases.
Its actually probably tight hipflexors, adductors,and hip rotators more so than hams. That will cause you to lean forward more and perform a romanian type deadlift.Thus activating the hams more than you are planning for.
after your accustomed to regular deadlifts I don’t think your hams get that sore, gluts lowerback, rhomboids, traps yes.
I actually think doing one legged deadlifts will overload your hams to much for a begginer.
open up your hips, and adductors , practice really good form. long negatives and make sure your back is upright, lean back all little pulling on the bar when your doing the first phase.
Learn how to PNF stretch your hamstrings.
Do some round house kicks before deadlifting to loosen up your legs.
Make sure to stretch your hip flexors
and have your friend stretch your hip rotators sit with one legged crossed and your back straight and press against his hand for ten second relax and let the adductor drop lower each time than repeat four or five times.
[quote]Alex630 wrote:
Modi wrote:
Alex630 wrote:
In the meantime, when I lift and it feels like my hamstring is going to pop, I just rub some heat on it. You know, icy-hot or whatever it’s called. It loosens everything up, and I can lift without pain or risk of a pull.
Most (if not all) of the analgesic rubs do not provide any deep heating effects at all. At best they irritate the nerve endings in the area and create the sensation of heat or cool from their active ingredients (capsaicin/menthol/etc.) Not that there is anything wrong with them, just don’t rely on any deep heating benefits.
What do you mean by “deep heating benefits”? I definately get the hot feeling for a few minutes, but after that, it seems to loosen my muscles up. There must be something to it. It’s not like it just numbs me to the pain and damage I’m inflicting on my hamstrings. Were that the case, I would have torn them months ago.
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Most of the independant studies I’ve seen indicate that analgesic rubs only heat the skin and the most superficial muscle layers. Unlike a proper warm-up, or the use of a moist heat pack which heat the muscles to a much deeper extent.
I’m not saying that anagesics don’t have their place. They can relieve discomfort (by overstimulating the nerve receptors in the area) and create a warming or cooling sensation, which may then allow you to perform an activity that was too painful without them.
My guess is you are still doing warm-up sets to loosen the muscles, and not simply rubbing some cream on your hamstrings and then jumping into your working sets.
As long as you can maintain a flat back position during the deadlift you should have the flexibility it takes to deadlift, straight-legged or otherwise. And if you can keep your flat back position while deadlifting then you should be able to increase your flexibility doing SLDL’s. Taking your muscles through a full ROM in an exercise such as this will only help your ROM. Tight hamstrings are usually from either a lack of use, or using in a shortened ROM, like distance running.
Bilateral hamstrings tightness isn’t a problem; it’s a blessing.
Unilateral tightness is an issue.
Remember, your assessment is generally based on a static measure - not a dynamic one that reflects what really happens in life (yoga has no carryover). You should be concerned about dynamic flexibiliy (as per our Magnificent Mobility DVD) and muscular balance.
The tighter my hamstrings get bilaterally, the stronger I get.
[quote]AlbertaBeef wrote:
You should probably test your 1RM in leg extensions (this being the ONLY time anyone would EVER touch a leg extension machine) and then test your 1RM in leg curls.
If your 1RM for leg curls isn’t at least 80% of your leg extensions, then you have a problem.
Beef[/quote]
A 1RM test for leg ext/leg curls is definitely not a good idea. Maybe you can do a 6 rep max test. Doing a max rep on isolation exercises isn’t really a safe thing to do. Do you do a 1RM on side lateral raises??
[quote]Modi wrote:
Matgic wrote:
Not sure I completely agree either of these statements.
A tight muscle is usually a weak muscle? I think it’s generally the other way around.
Leafblighter wrote:
I actually thought about this shortly after my post that I might have it backwards, and I think you’re right.
Actually I think it can be either way, weak and tight or strong and tight, depending on the level of training.
Untrained individuals often have both tight and weak muscles due to disuse and a lack of stretching.
Beginners tend to strengthen muscles without stretching them and/or only work partial ranges of motion (for way too many reasons to list) consequently developing strong (relatively speaking) yet tight muscles.
Just my 2 cents worth.[/quote]
This brings up a good point that I think needs discussed more. You can have muscles that are long and stiff, long and pliable, short and stiff or short and pliable. Any of them can be weak or strong, but long and stiff is particularly liable to be weak, IIRC. This is why you should perform stretching and self myofacial release with a little thought and care. Why stretch a muscle that is long and stiff? It would make more sense to do soft tissue work and improve the tension. This flies in the face of most people I see who stretch their hamstrings almost exclusively when they probably need aggressive stretching of the anterior structures and soft tissue work on the rear.
If your hamstrings are long and tense then I don’t see much benefit to adding stretching. If they really are “tight” i.e. stiff or have high tension then soft tissue work seems like the way to go. You might want to have someone you trust perform some simple manual muscle testing or at least watch you stand and move.
Is anyone saying that his hamstrings may be so strong/tight that they will not allow his pelvis to tilt anteriorly or that if he strengthens them more this will happen?
[quote]Krollmonster wrote:
AlbertaBeef wrote:
You should probably test your 1RM in leg extensions (this being the ONLY time anyone would EVER touch a leg extension machine) and then test your 1RM in leg curls.
If your 1RM for leg curls isn’t at least 80% of your leg extensions, then you have a problem.
Beef
A 1RM test for leg ext/leg curls is definitely not a good idea. Maybe you can do a 6 rep max test. Doing a max rep on isolation exercises isn’t really a safe thing to do. Do you do a 1RM on side lateral raises??
[/quote]
Krollmonster,
Good catch, but we covered that earlier in the thread. He agreed that an 8RM might be a better way to go.
Wow, this ended up being a pretty interesting thread. it is obviously hard to know whats really going on without actually seeing me or my posture but this thread gave me a few ideas. I am going to cut back frequency (more recovery time) and ditch the single leg stiff deads (maybe too much focus on already tight hams) for more traditional with heavier weight to really hit the glutes.
i’ll also just stretch a ton and try to work on hip mobilty while working the core. i’ll post my revised routine when i have some time and see what you all think.
[quote]Matgic wrote:
I’ve always been a little confused by using leg extension/curl machines to test the strenth ratios of the quads and hamstrings.
I don’t really have a better solution, but I just don’t think that those tests should be the be-all-end-all.
-MAtt[/quote]
I don’t have a better solution, either, but I think we can agree that a person with a knee flexion-extension strength ratio around 0.6-0.8 is a LOT better off than a person with a ratio of, say, 0.2.
