Zab has to retire. Just like RJJ. Sucks seeing fighters you’ve watched in their primes get dominated by 2nd tier fighters.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Zab has been shot for years. The limey press will use this as further proof that King Con is the greatest thing since Prince Naseem only to be heartbroken again…[/quote]
I disagree. Zab beat Matthysse (or lost narrowly) and looked better doing it than old Devon Alexander did. And DV, you may remember, was defeated in marginal fashion by Tim Bradley. Khan is, beyond a doubt, the man to beat in his division. Even though iron chinned warriors with pop are always going to give him a hard time, he’s going to be a bad night at the office for just about anyone. [/quote]
Listen man, I was ringside for both of those fights, one against Matthysse and the other against Mabuza. He barely, BARELY won the Matthysse fight, and got knocked down and was running for his life in a couple of those rounds.
Against Mabuza he looked TERRIBLE the entire time, and I, along with most people at ringside, thought he was going to get walked down and knocked out at that fight. He happened to land one very hard punch that KO’d him, but he lost most of the rounds of that fight in my eyes also.
Listen, dude’s done. He hasn’t been good for years and even when was in his prime he would shit out after five rounds.
Beating this clown is not a king maker thing for Khan, just as it wasn’t when he barely escaped from Maidana after running the last two rounds.
He is a good fighter, he’s fast and he’s got power, but I have a really hard time rooting for a glass chinned warrior that Freddie Roach trains.[/quote]
First of all, Matthysse is a top level boxer. I thought he was robbed by Devon, and I think he deserves to be a top five contender. So barely beating him is nothing to be ashamed about at all.
I too thought that Mabuza would eventually catch up with Zab and take him down. But he didn’t. AND he got knocked out. So I count that one in Judah’s favor as well.
And what do you mean exactly when you say he’s shot? That he’s fallen greatly since his days of losing to Spinks? Tszyu? Baldomir? That just his level. I thought for a moment he had become better (possibly blinded by my Pernell Whitaker Man-Love) but it turns out he’s still just Zab Judah.
[quote]fnf wrote:
Zab has to retire. Just like RJJ. Sucks seeing fighters you’ve watched in their primes get dominated by 2nd tier fighters.
[/quote]
And fnf, who exactly is this second tier fighter you are talking about? Where are these elusive tier one fighters? Is it Devon Alexander? Who won a frankly bollocks decision against Kotelnik? Marcos Maidana? Who was beaten by Khan? Matthysse? Who engaged in a tough fight with a man Khan destroyed? Where the fuck are they?!
[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
First of all, Matthysse is a top level boxer. I thought he was robbed by Devon, and I think he deserves to be a top five contender. So barely beating him is nothing to be ashamed about at all.
[/quote]
Mattysse is a strong puncher but he’s not much of a boxer. He had Zab running the entire fight - Zab looked AWFUL against him.
He was running the entire fight. HE caught him with a single lucky punch, literally the “puncher’s chance” punch.
[quote]
And what do you mean exactly when you say he’s shot? That he’s fallen greatly since his days of losing to Spinks? Tszyu? Baldomir? That just his level. I thought for a moment he had become better (possibly blinded by my Pernell Whitaker Man-Love) but it turns out he’s still just Zab Judah.[/quote]
Well, at one time Judah was an A level fighter, even if he never won the big fights. He gave Mayweather a run for his money, and always had the talent, but you’re right, he’s never been the best, more for lack of effort than lack of talent.
But doesn’t that detract even more from this win? Khan beat a guy who was never a top echelon fighter, and who has fallen off so hard in the last couple years that he was literally fighting in front of a thousand people in the devil’s practice rink against Mabuza.
The British press will be clamoring their idiot asses off for Khan to fight Mayweather now, and Mayweather will absolutely school him unless he gets old literally overnight in the next fight.
Again, this guy is much more a creation of Freddie Roach and yapping, moronic, know nothing boxing “reporters” from the UK more than anything else.
[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
[quote]fnf wrote:
Zab has to retire. Just like RJJ. Sucks seeing fighters you’ve watched in their primes get dominated by 2nd tier fighters.
[/quote]
And fnf, who exactly is this second tier fighter you are talking about? Where are these elusive tier one fighters? Is it Devon Alexander? Who won a frankly bollocks decision against Kotelnik? Marcos Maidana? Who was beaten by Khan? Matthysse? Who engaged in a tough fight with a man Khan destroyed? Where the fuck are they?![/quote]
No need to use swear words. I should have been more clear that I was talking more so about RJJ. I like Khan, but I would say he’s a notch below top tier, say 1b. I’ll give him more credit as he fights more top notch fighters. Zab used to be good, but it’s obvious he should be on his way out.
[quote]fnf wrote:
[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
[quote]fnf wrote:
Zab has to retire. Just like RJJ. Sucks seeing fighters you’ve watched in their primes get dominated by 2nd tier fighters.
[/quote]
And fnf, who exactly is this second tier fighter you are talking about? Where are these elusive tier one fighters? Is it Devon Alexander? Who won a frankly bollocks decision against Kotelnik? Marcos Maidana? Who was beaten by Khan? Matthysse? Who engaged in a tough fight with a man Khan destroyed? Where the fuck are they?![/quote]
No need to use swear words. I should have been more clear that I was talking more so about RJJ. I like Khan, but I would say he’s a notch below top tier, say 1b. I’ll give him more credit as he fights more top notch fighters. Zab used to be good, but it’s obvious he should be on his way out.
[/quote]
Alright. No worries. I find it hard to see how Khan is not top tier at Junior Welterweight. If you’re talking P4P I could see where you’re coming from. But I won’t argue with ya.
Irish mate, seriously, who trod on your hamster? The US press is talking up Khan every bit as much as the UK press, in fact the British papers are being quite circumspect! Just a few examples for you-
British Daily Telegraph- Khan not rushing towards a Mayweather bout- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/boxingandmma/8660481/Amir-Khan-determined-to-bide-his-time-over-fight-with-Floyd-Mayweather-Jnr-after-Zab-Judah-victory.html
British Daily Mail- Khan should avoid Mayweather- Khan should steer clear of Mayweather, warns former champion McKenzie | Daily Mail Online
American ABS-CBN- Mayweather vs Khan more likely than Mayweather vs Pacquiao (with links to many other supporting US sites)- http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/sports/07/26/11/mayweather-khan-more-likely-mayweather-pacquiao
American ESPN- When Khan says he wants to move up to welterweight, probably next year, and fight Floyd Mayweather Jr., it sure sounds legitimate- Amir Khan serves up notice with fifth-round KO over Zab Judah
So less of this British press stuff! You know I have a lot of time for your opinions Irish, but I reckon you’re being a tad myopic on this one.
Time will tell eh?
ABS-CBN is not American, it’s Filipino, and it’s the most biased site I’ve ever seen. They wouldn’t know boxing if it stabbed them and slapped them with its dick. All they care about is Pac.
I have not read about Amir Khan because I don’t care, but after the Maidana fight they were ready to crown him the king of boxing, and I thought that ridiculous.
I’m glad your papers are learning their lesson, being as most of the champs they talk up end up flat on their back. I have never seen writers and a media in general so biased and out of touch with reality as far as sports go.
FightinIrish,
I do not follow boxing as closely as I used to. I am not claiming a position of authority with boxing compared to you.
Still, I have to ask: How much of this bile was actually earned by Khan and how much is splash from your hatred of Roach/Pac-man?
I think Khan is a good to very good fighter. I do not see him ever being one of the “Greats”, but he holds a title. I would not characterize him as possessing a “glass jaw”, but rather an “average” jaw. The problem is that he is swimming in waters where anything less than a stellar chin means you can get KO’d at almost any time.
Who do you put above him in the 140 class? I am thinking Bradley and Alexander for sure, but who else do you put ahead of him?
Regards,
Robert A
I would go as far as saying Khan can beat anyone in the 140-147lb division EXCEPT Money Mayweather & WacPac.
I would like to see Khan avenge his ko loss to Breidis Prescott.
Robert, I would strongly debate putting Bradley before Khan and I no longer rate Alexander in my top five.
cutthroat, I would tend to agree with you, though I think that Victor Ortiz would give Khan absolute hell.
fnf, I would have prefered to see Khan battle Prescott than McClosky but I would much rather see him fight Bradley, Matthysse or Berto than Breidis.
Monster of the week: Gary Russell Jr. Did anyone see this fight?
[quote]Robert A wrote:
FightinIrish,
I do not follow boxing as closely as I used to. I am not claiming a position of authority with boxing compared to you.
Still, I have to ask: How much of this bile was actually earned by Khan and how much is splash from your hatred of Roach/Pac-man?
I think Khan is a good to very good fighter. I do not see him ever being one of the “Greats”, but he holds a title. I would not characterize him as possessing a “glass jaw”, but rather an “average” jaw. The problem is that he is swimming in waters where anything less than a stellar chin means you can get KO’d at almost any time.
Who do you put above him in the 140 class? I am thinking Bradley and Alexander for sure, but who else do you put ahead of him?
Regards,
Robert A [/quote]
Partly it’s caused by my intense dislike for Freddie Roach, and partly (even moreso) it’s caused by my intense dislike for most British fighters (Ricky Hatton and a few others aside) most of whom cherrypick their opponents and fail miserably when they come on a real challenge. As I’ve stated numerous times, the British press doesn’t help - I despise them and their lack of boxing knowledge and their insistence that the next British champ is actually worth a damn when, before Ricky Hatton, their last good fighter was Nigel Benn (although I like Lewis, even with his own shitty jaw).
He doesn’t have an average jaw. An average jaw is someone that takes a lot of punishment, and can be knocked out but you’ve really got to wear them down and land a lot of hard shots to do it. Khan’s is totally glass - one hard shot and you’ve wrecked him, his plan for the fight, and you might knock him out.
He’s better than Alexander maybe, but not better than Bradley. And at 147, he could get kayo’d by nearly any fighter, and his own power may not carry up. Going to welterweight is a dangerous prospect for him… but I’d like it because I would love, LOVE to see him fight a guy like Ortiz or Berto. You think fucking Prescott has power? Let these guys get him…
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Lewis, even with his own shitty jaw).
He doesn’t have an average jaw. An average jaw is someone that takes a lot of punishment, and can be knocked out but you’ve really got to wear them down and land a lot of hard shots to do it. Khan’s is totally glass - one hard shot and you’ve wrecked him, his plan for the fight, and you might knock him out.
[/quote]
This is almost a semantic argument, but I mean average for anyone. My point being that once you are talking top 25 in pro boxing, average anything really does not cut it. The counter point to my using “average” as a descriptor is that since he is a title holder we should be judging him on the Champ scale. I think this is where you are coming from. That’s fare enough since this is a boxing discussion.
I usually reserve the glass jaw title for people who get crushed by even glancing blows. Usually these examples started out on the low end of average, lost consciousness several times, suffered a dozen more mild concussions, and now can’t get hit in the head in training without taking a nap. I have a friend like this. He got that way from to motor vehicle accidents where he lost consciousness. Now a good bump on the head can damn near put him on Queer Street.
I like Lewis as well, although I could never tell if he is British, Canadian, or Caribbean until his fucking entrance music started. He is also an example of what I would say is a slightly better than “average/normal guy” chin in elite waters. I suspect he could take punches from most folks in any bar or restaurant, but when dealing with top 5 fighters, and heavyweights no less, he had issues. He dealt with them by being conservative, using his height, and doing enough damage with the pole axe masquerading as his right hand that opponents usually couldn’t find his chin. Khan should probably take note and be content to decision some men that fans feel he could have finished.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
Robert, I would strongly debate putting Bradley before Khan and I no longer rate Alexander in my top five.
[/quote]
See, I have not watched enough of these 140’s to really know. If I saw more tape on them I might agree with you. Gives me a good excuse to spend some time on youtube. That is why I framed my post to Irish the way I did. I really do not trust my rankings of the 140’s right now. As opposed to when I say with certainty that Will O’ the Wisp ranks ahead of Sweat Pea, and Sweet Pea is about twenty five holding slots ahead of everyone else.
Who is your top five in Khan’s division?
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
Robert, I would strongly debate putting Bradley before Khan and I no longer rate Alexander in my top five.
[/quote]
See, I have not watched enough of these 140’s to really know. If I saw more tape on them I might agree with you. Gives me a good excuse to spend some time on youtube. That is why I framed my post to Irish the way I did. I really do not trust my rankings of the 140’s right now. As opposed to when I say with certainty that Will O’ the Wisp ranks ahead of Sweat Pea, and Sweet Pea is about twenty five holding slots ahead of everyone else.
Who is your top five in Khan’s division?
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Wasn’t calling you out Robert, just stating my opinion. It goes: Khan, Bradley, Matthysse, Maidana, Kotelnik.
[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
Robert, I would strongly debate putting Bradley before Khan and I no longer rate Alexander in my top five.
[/quote]
See, I have not watched enough of these 140’s to really know. If I saw more tape on them I might agree with you. Gives me a good excuse to spend some time on youtube. That is why I framed my post to Irish the way I did. I really do not trust my rankings of the 140’s right now. As opposed to when I say with certainty that Will O’ the Wisp ranks ahead of Sweat Pea, and Sweet Pea is about twenty five holding slots ahead of everyone else.
Who is your top five in Khan’s division?
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Wasn’t calling you out Robert, just stating my opinion. It goes: Khan, Bradley, Matthysse, Maidana, Kotelnik. [/quote]
Where do you put Alexander?
I think some of you’re forgetting that Khan made a serious attempt to fight Bradley after Bradley already committed to getting a different promoter. Golden Boy and Top Rank are the two most likely choices for him once he gets his legal situation handled. Bradley was never going to take that fight and Golden Boy knew it.
Unless they move up and take bigger fights I think Bradley will pull off a close decision.
@Robert: Probably sixth. I thought he lost that fight against Matthysse, but it was a close call against Tim Bradley.
EDIT: Apparently he’s a welter now. So much for my ranking.
@gg I don’t think that Bradley is in any way afraid of Khan, but I think he would lose by a fairly respectable margin if they fought (say 4-6 rounds). I heard the story was that he thought he was in with a chance at Pacquiao?
Oh, and did you here that Golden Buy and Top Rank are burying the hatchet for Gamboa v. Ponce De Leon?
[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
@Robert: Probably sixth. I thought he lost that fight against Matthysse, but it was a close call against Tim Bradley.
EDIT: Apparently he’s a welter now. So much for my ranking.
@gg I don’t think that Bradley is in any way afraid of Khan, but I think he would lose by a fairly respectable margin if they fought (say 4-6 rounds). I heard the story was that he thought he was in with a chance at Pacquiao?
Oh, and did you here that Golden Buy and Top Rank are burying the hatchet for Gamboa v. Ponce De Leon?[/quote]
I don’t think there was ever a hatchet significant enough to prevent them from doing business, it’s a convenient excuse to force them out of deals.
Bradley has been wanting to leave Shaw after Shaw sold him out to put his fight with Alexander in the Silverdome. That and Shaw can only do so much since he lacks the connections Top Rank and Golden Boy have. Personally, I think he’s just waiting for his contract to expire. He owes Shaw and Thompson so he’ll have to pay them off but Golden Boy or Top Rank will get him a fight to help him recoup.
I think Khan has a lot of problems with Bradley. Bradley can apply constant pressure while making him miss. I think it’ll be a humbling fight for both fighters but Bradley wins by a close margin.