This is The Average Man's Body

Off Topic
221

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
I’d also like to see how people who are worried about their next meal are going to “up their skill set”. Show me a person working two to three minimum wage or low paying jobs working twelve to sixteen hours a day are going to increase their skill set.
[/quote]

1 thing I think gets overlooked in this debate is that working those jobs, in and of itself, increases your skill set.

Entry level positions can teach employees a lot that they need to know in order to be successful in the work force. How to take directions, how to work as a team, how to communicate with people, customer service, etc. All kinds of skills can be increase just from working entry level positions.

222

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
If you actually made them live in poverty maybe they would be more likely to try to dig themselves out of their holes and less content to just sit back and freeload.
[/quote]

See, I find this kind of argument has as much emotion within it as the kind of arguments Countingbeans talked about.

223

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
If you actually made them live in poverty maybe they would be more likely to try to dig themselves out of their holes and less content to just sit back and freeload.
[/quote]

See, I find this kind of argument has as much emotion within it as the kind of arguments Countingbeans talked about.

[/quote]

I think what jbpick is saying is that you are encouraging apathy by enabling people to live a lifestyle they otherwise could not live.

It’s an interesting argument. Personally I think if you receive government assistance you should have to “earn it” somehow.

224

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
If you actually made them live in poverty maybe they would be more likely to try to dig themselves out of their holes and less content to just sit back and freeload.
[/quote]

See, I find this kind of argument has as much emotion within it as the kind of arguments Countingbeans talked about.

[/quote]

I think what jbpick is saying is that you are encouraging apathy by enabling people to live a lifestyle they otherwise could not live.

It’s an interesting argument. Personally I think if you receive government assistance you should have to “earn it” somehow. [/quote]

This, spoken much more elegantly than I.

225

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
If you actually made them live in poverty maybe they would be more likely to try to dig themselves out of their holes and less content to just sit back and freeload.
[/quote]

See, I find this kind of argument has as much emotion within it as the kind of arguments Countingbeans talked about.

[/quote]

Which this is probably true as my argument has plenty of emotion. The only difference being my argument actually has the benefit of the unknown, as in, we really don’t know what would happen if mine was implemented, may be a disaster, may work wonderfully. We already know what would happen if a “living wage” was implemented.

226

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
I’d also like to see how people who are worried about their next meal are going to “up their skill set”. Show me a person working two to three minimum wage or low paying jobs working twelve to sixteen hours a day are going to increase their skill set.
[/quote]

1 thing I think gets overlooked in this debate is that working those jobs, in and of itself, increases your skill set.

Entry level positions can teach employees a lot that they need to know in order to be successful in the work force. How to take directions, how to work as a team, how to communicate with people, customer service, etc. All kinds of skills can be increase just from working entry level positions. [/quote]

Coming from someone like myself that out earns my parents (both sets) combined, and barely doesn’t out earn all 4 incomes aggregated, and now pays more in tax every year than I ever made in any given year until I graduated college…

I have skills and understanding I obtained from my first job washing windows from 5am until 8pm when I was 14…

Life is damn hard. Sometimes you don’t get paid a lot… Fucking figure it out.

227

Regarding my post resembling an adolescent’s novel: I never was exposed to poor people in my adolescence nor did I give any thought to what I speak of here.

Did my post involve feelings? Yes. As I said, I am talking about other human beings, and not being a psychopath, feelings will get involved with this subject.

I worked unpleasant jobs: dishwashing, buttering bagels, folding clothes at the Gap, stocking shelves, waiting tables, bartending, etc. Thank god I don’t anymore.

228

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
No I haven’t. All I know is that using the terms poverty and America in the same sentence is tough for me to swallow.
[/quote]

The issue is that the middle class that stays afloat and above are living better than any person in the history of the world.

But, in absolute numbers, are there are also more people in poverty today than ever in the history of the world.

Just because the country itself is immensely rich doesn’t mean that it applies to the actual people living in it.

As Countingbeans alluded to, there is always a problem when you try to look at the issue in a general manner. It becomes an emotional issue and you think the fix is simple or obvious or w.e. Reality is always quite different.[/quote]

It certainly is not a simple issue.

229

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
If you actually made them live in poverty maybe they would be more likely to try to dig themselves out of their holes and less content to just sit back and freeload.
[/quote]

See, I find this kind of argument has as much emotion within it as the kind of arguments Countingbeans talked about.

[/quote]
I think what jbpick is saying is that you are encouraging apathy by enabling people to live a lifestyle they otherwise could not live.

It’s an interesting argument. Personally I think if you receive government assistance you should have to “earn it” somehow. [/quote]
I wonder how much government assistance has saved people from turning to crime? This is just speculation on my part.

Many of the people I’ve known who live on government assistance (including those who work, and work hard) tend to be very opportunistic. It wouldn’t surprise me much if they sought out alternate means to maintain their lifestyle if they lost government assistance.

Back on topic:

The biggest resistance I’ve seen is an unwillingness to relocate themselves or their families out of economically depressed areas. They’re aware there’s jobs elsewhere, and they’re aware they’re in a depressed area, but the actual act of moving seems to scare them away from doing anything about it. Social bonding and familiarity is a very strong force.

230

[quote]LoRez wrote:
The biggest resistance I’ve seen is an unwillingness to relocate themselves or their families out of economically depressed areas. They’re aware there’s jobs elsewhere, and they’re aware they’re in a depressed area, but the actual act of moving seems to scare them away from doing anything about it. Social bonding and familiarity is a very strong force.[/quote]

Absolutely.

231

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
No I haven’t. All I know is that using the terms poverty and America in the same sentence is tough for me to swallow.
[/quote]

The issue is that the middle class that stays afloat and above are living better than any person in the history of the world.

But, in absolute numbers, are there are also more people in poverty today than ever in the history of the world.

Just because the country itself is immensely rich doesn’t mean that it applies to the actual people living in it.

As Countingbeans alluded to, there is always a problem when you try to look at the issue in a general manner. It becomes an emotional issue and you think the fix is simple or obvious or w.e. Reality is always quite different.[/quote]

It certainly is not a simple issue.
[/quote]

No it isn’t.

232

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I think what jbpick is saying is that you are encouraging apathy by enabling people to live a lifestyle they otherwise could not live.

It’s an interesting argument. Personally I think if you receive government assistance you should have to “earn it” somehow. [/quote]

Oh I know, and I would agree with the argument itself. It seems intuitive and it makes sense. That doesn’t prevent it from being rooted in emotions from the person who makes the argument though, as jbpick86 himself wrote. Lots of things seem intuitive and makes good sense, yet in practical terms don’t work out very well. Socialized medicine is one of them.

jbpick86-

We did, actually! It’s world history before the late 19th/early 20th century. Of course, if you mean what would happen right this instant then we wouldn’t know.

233

[quote]LoRez wrote:
The biggest resistance I’ve seen is an unwillingness to relocate themselves or their families out of economically depressed areas. They’re aware there’s jobs elsewhere, and they’re aware they’re in a depressed area, but the actual act of moving seems to scare them away from doing anything about it. Social bonding and familiarity is a very strong force.[/quote]

I attempted to address this topic earlier but decided not to because I didn’t know how to address it properly.

Anyways, this is an important point. It’s not fair to look at people as simple machines of sorts that’ll just follow jobs around. If they did then the issue would be a helluva lot more simple- people would become commodities of sorts that can shuffled around places to fit job needs.

We could take the millions on welfare and send them off to CA to work the farms! The issue of illegal immigration would no longer be a thing! You wouldn’t have the special interest groups working to keep illegal immigration a thing because you actually have people to work the jobs no one else would work!

If only…

234

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
I think what jbpick is saying is that you are encouraging apathy by enabling people to live a lifestyle they otherwise could not live.

It’s an interesting argument. Personally I think if you receive government assistance you should have to “earn it” somehow. [/quote]

Oh I know, and I would agree with the argument itself. It seems intuitive and it makes sense. That doesn’t prevent it from being rooted in emotions from the person who makes the argument though, as jbpick86 himself wrote. Lots of things seem intuitive and makes good sense, yet in practical terms don’t work out very well. Socialized medicine is one of them.

jbpick86-

We did, actually! It’s world history before the late 19th/early 20th century. Of course, if you mean what would happen right this instant then we wouldn’t know.[/quote]

But as you said, this is not the turn of the last century. This is a totally different time. And sometimes a drastic change one way causes serious hardship for a while but works to cause a gradual shift back to the more practical less drastic middle that every one can agree on. Whenever 47% of a state is on food stamps but local farmers are going up to $13 or $14 an hour for help on a dairy farm because everyone they hire (if they even get applicants) says that they would rather go home and draw their money than work that hard, something is seriously wrong with the current system.

235

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
The biggest resistance I’ve seen is an unwillingness to relocate themselves or their families out of economically depressed areas. They’re aware there’s jobs elsewhere, and they’re aware they’re in a depressed area, but the actual act of moving seems to scare them away from doing anything about it. Social bonding and familiarity is a very strong force.[/quote]

Absolutely. [/quote]

Eh… I moved 130 miles away from everyone I knew, by myself.

236

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Regarding my post resembling an adolescent’s novel: I never was exposed to poor people in my adolescence nor did I give any thought to what I speak of here.

Did my post involve feelings? Yes. As I said, I am talking about other human beings, and not being a psychopath, feelings will get involved with this subject. [/quote]

I grew up “poor” and the closest thing I knew to “rich” were working class, blue collar people who made good wage, like a licensed machine operator.

How fucked up on booze and weed you got on Thursday was a measure of your success well into your 30’s and 40’s, not just as a high school teen chasing women.

Now that I live in a middle class neighborhood, work with white collar people, and work for very, very rich people day in and day out… My empathy is slim. There are very few examples of “poor” and “bad luck” people I have empathy for. Nor do I feel, for one second, guilty for my situation. In fact I celebrate it. I worked my ass off to get her, and left a lot, a metric fuck ton, of good people behind in order to do it.

SO add in an education and decades experience in business, continuing study of economics, taxation, business practices, keeping up with current events, etc… I don’t buy the bullshit. And much of the whining and crying about the “poor” and the evil “millionaires and billionaires” is bullshit. If fact, anyone turned on by the “YOU DIDN’T BUILD THAT” nonsense would serve themselves well to retake Economics 101, Civics 101 and both World and US history 101. Nothing Obama or Liz Warren says wasn’t already said by FDR, and he confiscated our gold, put people in interment camps and was more than happy to get into WWII.

Right, and our point is your very last sentence here. Think about it.

237

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
The biggest resistance I’ve seen is an unwillingness to relocate themselves or their families out of economically depressed areas. They’re aware there’s jobs elsewhere, and they’re aware they’re in a depressed area, but the actual act of moving seems to scare them away from doing anything about it. Social bonding and familiarity is a very strong force.[/quote]

I attempted to address this topic earlier but decided not to because I didn’t know how to address it properly.

Anyways, this is an important point. It’s not fair to look at people as simple machines of sorts that’ll just follow jobs around. If they did then the issue would be a helluva lot more simple- people would become commodities of sorts that can shuffled around places to fit job needs.

We could take the millions on welfare and send them off to CA to work the farms! The issue of illegal immigration would no longer be a thing! You wouldn’t have the special interest groups working to keep illegal immigration a thing because you actually have people to work the jobs no one else would work!

If only…[/quote]

It’s about CHOICES. I detailed my personal struggle when the government decided all of a sudden that I was not qualified to sell mortgages anymore. I had a choice. I bartended and looked for another job using my skill set from my previous career as an electrician. There were no jobs to be had in my area.

SO I FUCKING MOVED. I heard about jobs in the oil industry (from members of this forum as a matter of fact). I packed all of my shit in my car, drove to Lafayette Louisiana, PITCHED FUCKING TENT and looked for work. I found a job shortly thereafter doing electrical service work on oil rigs.

I leveraged that critical power experience into managing the electrical power/generators/equipment for one of the largest data centers in the country. In just over two years…

It’s about momentum. If someone MAKES AN EFFORT it get’s noticed. People tend to give a helping hand, write a referral, talk to a friend, make an introduction that they otherwise wouldn’t make if you were just sitting on your ass in your living room. Why would they? They don’t know that you’ll produce! But if they see you actually, I don’t know, TRYING - then they may be inclined to risk their reputation with a referral.

I would NEVER refer someone who wasn’t actively looking for work and willing to sacrifice to get it.

“but I have a family” - Fuck you, I had a family

“but it’s so far away” - Fuck you, I traveled almost 1300 miles

“But I don’t know anyone” - Fuck you, I didn’t know anyone

“But I don’t have a place to stay” - Fuck you, I pitched a tent - IN DECEMBER.

I’m not interested in hearing excuses for why people “can’t” get a job. There is only ONE reason: THEY DON’T WANT IT BADLY ENOUGH

And I don’t feel that MY taxes should support that kind of laziness.

238

I’m not asking ANYONE to do ANYTHING that I personally have not done. I’m a felon without a high school diploma. I got out of prison with nothing but a bunch of stitches and a lump on my skull where someone hit me with a lock in a sock. I started off as a painter, then found work as a carpenter. I had to wait three fucking years to get into the electrical apprenticeship BECAUSE I WASN’T A MINORITY… But I kept applying and finally got in. While other people in my class were fucking up, I was studying hard because I had no safety net. The knowledge and skill was built and the money soon followed…

Why can’t ANYONE do that? Seriously… ANYONE can get a job as a painter! I know an immigrant who I sold my last house to who has been in this country for less than TEN FUCKING YEARS and he started as a painter, eventually bought a truck, then another one, expanded his business, and now he’s owns FIVE FUCKING HOUSES in Vienna, VA (each house worth more than 500K). Did I mention he’s been here less than TEN YEARS? With a central American education…

What’s Mr. or Mrs. “I’m on welfare cuz I can’t find a job”'s excuse?

They are either STUPID, or LAZY.

Neither one of these conditions is MY FAULT, so why the fuck should I have to carry that burden with MY TAXES?

239

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

Neither one of these conditions is MY FAULT, so why the fuck should I have to carry that burden …?[/quote]

I really can’t argue with anything you’ve written here.

We bought gifts for some foster kids this year, and my daughter kept asking who the presents were for. “For kids without mommies and daddies darling.” We picked one infant and one teen. And the whole time I really got the most enjoyment thinking about how (I hope) happy this kid is when he opens up all that shit we got him. (My wife has good taste). And we even cut into the cloths to toss in a basketball too.

We don’t do this shit because we feel bad for him or anyone. We do it so that some day he’ll have the idea to pay it forward too.

We have this thing called the Wish Project near us. We put together these baskets/bags for “homeless” mothers. Shower sandals and diapers, soap and other small items in a bag they can hand carry… It’s another fun little charity the whole family can get involved in. Plus you can do a shit ton of bags with a measly $500.

We do all this stuff for a couple reasons, and one is so my kids see. They are growing up with exponentially more than I ever had, and parents that drink/party a hell of a lot less. My lodge does a lot of good work too. They know when daddy is out, he is out doing good things.

My point is, all this I do as a choice. I don’t need the government or an authority figure, or any guilt trips and lectures from “intellectuals” like Robert Reich, to do the right thing.

240

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

Neither one of these conditions is MY FAULT, so why the fuck should I have to carry that burden …?[/quote]

I really can’t argue with anything you’ve written here.

We bought gifts for some foster kids this year, and my daughter kept asking who the presents were for. “For kids without mommies and daddies darling.” We picked one infant and one teen. And the whole time I really got the most enjoyment thinking about how (I hope) happy this kid is when he opens up all that shit we got him. (My wife has good taste). And we even cut into the cloths to toss in a basketball too.

We don’t do this shit because we feel bad for him or anyone. We do it so that some day he’ll have the idea to pay it forward too.

We have this thing called the Wish Project near us. We put together these baskets/bags for “homeless” mothers. Shower sandals and diapers, soap and other small items in a bag they can hand carry… It’s another fun little charity the whole family can get involved in. Plus you can do a shit ton of bags with a measly $500.

We do all this stuff for a couple reasons, and one is so my kids see. They are growing up with exponentially more than I ever had, and parents that drink/party a hell of a lot less. My lodge does a lot of good work too. They know when daddy is out, he is out doing good things.

My point is, all this I do as a choice. I don’t need the government or an authority figure, or any guilt trips and lectures from “intellectuals” like Robert Reich, to do the right thing. [/quote]

Same here. I probably “donate” (although I prefer to use the term “invest”) approximately a thousand to two thousand dollars a month to various people who are not as well off as I am, but who are moving (or who I feel have the potential to move) in a positive direction. It’s not a loan, and it’s not always cash. And like you said, the only thing I ever ask is that they pay it forward if and when they are able. Some of them are in different countries, so a little goes a long way.

Why do I do this? Because I FUCKED UP when I was younger and society gave me another chance. So I try to help other people get that chance to open that door so that they can pick themselves up and move forward with their lives. It’s a good example for my kids as well, but I’ve already raised my eldest right - I’m not worried about him now. I could get hit by a bus tomorrow and I would know, beyond a doubt, that he will be a successful man with character and integrity. Right now my focus is on the little one and dealing with his particular challenges.

I firmly believe that CHARITY is far more prevalent than the government would have us believe.

“but what would happen if we stopped supporting a welfare lifestyle?”

People would find a job. And while they were looking, people like me and like Beans, or other charitable people/organizations would help them.

Notice, I’m not talking about unemployment or temporary benefits, I’m talking of permanently subsidized housing with rising welfare checks calculated by the number of illegitimate babies you pump out. That shit is just RIDICULOUS…