This is The Average Man's Body

[quote]batman730 wrote:
You seem kinda hung up on guarantees. The only guarantee in this life is that you will die. Period. Everything else is up for grabs.

The individuals who founded the corporations we are discussing did so with no guarantees whatsoever of success. Why should the fry cook expect one? [/quote]

It’s because the way I interpreted Lankymofo’s post that I initially responded to. A “starting point” implies that there is a ladder of sorts that you can go up on. And eventually you’ll reach said livable wages.

I get what y’all are saying about having to start from the bottom and working your way up. Obviously no one is going to give you a management job (or a more demanding job besides flipping burgers or something) if you can’t prove that you have solid management skills, or if you haven’t worked for the folks long enough to prove that you have what it takes.

But doing the job properly doesn’t mean you’ll eventually get the higher up job, or get to leverage the skills you built for a better job elsewhere.

So it’s not that I’m hung up on guarantees. Quite the opposite, really. I’m saying that there are no guarantees. That just because you work hard and faithfully you’ll be rewarded for your work. There’s simply not enough opportunities for every hard working individual to be given their just rewards.

[quote]usmccds423
I’ve worked for minimum wage at a Friendly’s. Then I joined the Marine Corps. (Probably less than minimum wage). Then I got a job based off that experience (4 years). While working at the new job ($17/hr) I went to school at night and ultimate graduated with a degree in accounting. Fast forward two jobs later, mid way through a grad degree, and a promotion I make considerable more than minimum wage and I expect to continue to earn more and more as the value I add increases. It took me about 10 years to get from there to here and I took the long road…

And I aint no special snow flake.[/quote]

Friendly’s is a nice restaurant chain. I liked the place nearby my apt when I lived in MA. They had great ice-cream cakes, among other things.

Anyways, based on the above, you both are and not are a special snow flake, if that makes any sense at all.

Regarding the path to success thing-

I believe what you’re trying to say is- most everyone has the chance to succeed, somehow/someway. And I do agree with this. As long as you’re willing to leave things behind and not become too attached to things, you can always look for opportunities wherever they arise and pursue them.

But this is different from saying there is always a path to success, imo. The way I see it, a path to success actually means that there is a path. But maybe I’m taking it a whee bit too literally?

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]Broncoandy wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Broncoandy wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
What’s an inflated minimum wage, $13 an hour? [/quote]
Minimum wage, due to it’s very nature, is an inflated wage.

My father in law and I argue about this. He is of the impassioned opinion that anyone who is willing to work is owed a “living wage”. He loosely implies that this wage might be around $15/hr. From an emotional standpoint it’s not hard to get behind the idea that if a person works, he should be able to afford a basic standard of living for his family.

Unfortunately, it seems to me that if the government were to impose a $15/hr minimum wage on corporations who employ minimum wage labourers we would only see an initial increase in the standard of living for people in that earning bracket. Does anybody really think it would being before the corporations would increase the cost of basic goods and services to regain their lost profitability? The minimum wage earners would soon be right back where they are in terms of buying power while those of us who have managed to elevate our market value above the minimum would find our buying power eroded (until we, in turn, begin to charge more for our goods and service).

[/quote]

The thing is that prices should be higher. Walmart, McDonald’s, Tim Horton’s, etc… all turn huge profits while tax dollars subsidize an otherwise unsustainable commodity they require to operate (if not for government money their labor force wouldn’t survive, and they’d be out of business with no one to flip patties). In what kind of bizaro world should a big mac cost less to buy than it costs to make while McDonald’s still turns a profit on every sale?
That’s crazy. I want lower taxes, not cheaper big macs.[/quote]

You’re gonna have to prove Big Mac’s are sold at a loss and if that’s a part of their overall sales strategy, ie a loss leader.

[/quote]

They turn a 5 billion dollar profit using government subsidized labor. And probably subsidized beef. And probably subsidized electric generation now that I think about it. McDonald’s: Your tax dollars at work. I’m lovin it.

http://www.nelp.org/page/-/rtmw/uploads/NELP-Super-Sizing-Public-Costs-Fast-Food-Report.pdf?nocdn=1

Forget the last page where they try to throw management under the bus implying they make too much. Simply put they could pay their workers a living wage (whatever they dish out now, plus what the government covers), and still turn a 4 billion dollar profit.

Responsible companies need to pay for their own sustainability. I don’t care if it’s labor, materials, or energy. We (the tax payers) should not tolerate anything less. Corporate welfare is the worst kind of welfare.[/quote]

This![/quote]

Lol…

Bronco’s post did not address mine at all and there are only about 50 issues with his statement, but ya great post!!! Hopefully the gov steps in and forces that “living wage” cause, you know, McDonald’s can afford it.

[quote]magick wrote:
But maybe I’m taking it a whee bit too literally?[/quote]

Ha! Maybe just a bit. It’s all good. I just think there is more upward mobility in this country and time in history then pretty much any other. There is almost always opportunity.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
McDonald’s can afford it.

[/quote]

Of course they can afford it. But unfortunately, if some bloated CEO does decide that his employees deserve some dignity and shouldn’t be in the pathetic position in which they have to go to the government for food and housing, he might not be able to build that new wing on his mansion or buy that new McLaren. A pity.

But wait, “companies exist to make a profit”. And, here comes my favorites: “No one owes anyone anything,” and, “What are you, a communist?” And can’t forget, “But if they get that increased wage, they thereby won’t be motivated to do something ‘better’”. AS IF someone initially aiming for med school, or perhaps even a mid-skilled position such as nursing or teaching, would not follow through because they can make fifteen bucks per hour buttering bagels.

Lovely.

I don’t believe every expense should be paid for simply because it can be afforded, but when it comes to keeping a human being alive I believe it should be so because a human being in America can’t remain alive on seven to eight bucks per hour without help from someone else.

But hey, I am letting my feelings get involved in this, feelings for people who need food and housing to stay alive, not just treating them as economic units to be overworked, used, and exploited, and who in turn have to rely on others and the government.

I personally have never faced poverty, have a decent profession, and am working on developing a spare time business, but I have a heart for those less fortunate than me and can empathize with their situations. The first time I saw a homeless man at age about seven years old, I could not get over the sight of him and needed my mom to calm me down later in the night.

This does not mean I condone people not pulling their own weight in nearly all cases. In my profession I am exposed on a daily basis to the blood suckers and parasites of this country, people who will never lift a foot or hand for anything! However, I am also exposed to many poor and unfortunate people who wound up in their situations to no fault of their own.

No one in their right mind believes fast food workers and dish washers should be paid the same as tradesmen, and mid to high skilled professionals, but it would be nice to see people not facing poverty–DANGEROUS poverty that is–because they do an honest job, whether that’s serving my cup of coffee, buttering bagels, flipping burgers, stacking shelves, or holding my table at a restaurant.

And the economic landscape in which thousands of qualified, upright, decent–albeit perhaps not the brightest or most talented but not stupid–American adults are now working in fast food and hospitality because of the lack of jobs in this country at the present time. So fast food and other hospitality jobs are generally not just entry level positions being filled by high school and college students on spring or summer break or in between or after classes, people who indeed naturally might not be independent because of their age and spot in life.

I’d also like to see how people who are worried about their next meal are going to “up their skill set”. Show me a person working two to three minimum wage or low paying jobs working twelve to sixteen hours a day are going to increase their skill set.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
But maybe I’m taking it a whee bit too literally?[/quote]

Ha! Maybe just a bit. It’s all good. I just think there is more upward mobility in this country and time in history then pretty much any other. There is almost always opportunity.[/quote]

Have you ever done some research on the degree of poverty and food insecurity we have today?

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
But maybe I’m taking it a whee bit too literally?[/quote]

Ha! Maybe just a bit. It’s all good. I just think there is more upward mobility in this country and time in history then pretty much any other. There is almost always opportunity.[/quote]

Have you ever done some research on the degree of poverty and food insecurity we have today?
[/quote]

Then that makes the near obese average american male even more of disgrace.

[quote]mbdix wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
But maybe I’m taking it a whee bit too literally?[/quote]

Ha! Maybe just a bit. It’s all good. I just think there is more upward mobility in this country and time in history then pretty much any other. There is almost always opportunity.[/quote]

Have you ever done some research on the degree of poverty and food insecurity we have today?
[/quote]

Then that makes the near obese average american male even more of disgrace. [/quote]

Yeah.

Addendum: I didn’t mean my sarcasm for anyone in particular. I just get riled up on this topic sometimes. I am not an expert but I have my own views on it. I apologize if it was too verbose.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Addendum: I didn’t mean my sarcasm for anyone in particular. I just get riled up on this topic sometimes. I am not an expert but I have my own views on it. I apologize if it was too verbose. [/quote]

Mate, It was a great post.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
McDonald’s can afford it.

[/quote]

Of course they can afford it. But unfortunately, if some bloated CEO does decide that his employees deserve some dignity and shouldn’t be in the pathetic position in which they have to go to the government for food and housing, he might not be able to build that new wing on his mansion or buy that new McLaren. A pity.

But wait, “companies exist to make a profit”. And, here comes my favorites: “No one owes anyone anything,” and, “What are you, a communist?” And can’t forget, “But if they get that increased wage, they thereby won’t be motivated to do something ‘better’”. AS IF someone initially aiming for med school, or perhaps even a mid-skilled position such as nursing or teaching, would not follow through because they can make fifteen bucks per hour buttering bagels.

Lovely.

I don’t believe every expense should be paid for simply because it can be afforded, but when it comes to keeping a human being alive I believe it should be so because a human being in America can’t remain alive on seven to eight bucks per hour without help from someone else.

But hey, I am letting my feelings get involved in this, feelings for people who need food and housing to stay alive, not just treating them as economic units to be overworked, used, and exploited, and who in turn have to rely on others and the government.

I personally have never faced poverty, have a decent profession, and am working on developing a spare time business, but I have a heart for those less fortunate than me and can empathize with their situations. The first time I saw a homeless man at age about seven years old, I could not get over the sight of him and needed my mom to calm me down later in the night.

This does not mean I condone people not pulling their own weight in nearly all cases. In my profession I am exposed on a daily basis to the blood suckers and parasites of this country, people who will never lift a foot or hand for anything! However, I am also exposed to many poor and unfortunate people who wound up in their situations to no fault of their own.

No one in their right mind believes fast food workers and dish washers should be paid the same as tradesmen, and mid to high skilled professionals, but it would be nice to see people not facing poverty–DANGEROUS poverty that is–because they do an honest job, whether that’s serving my cup of coffee, buttering bagels, flipping burgers, stacking shelves, or holding my table at a restaurant.

And the economic landscape in which thousands of qualified, upright, decent–albeit perhaps not the brightest or most talented but not stupid–American adults are now working in fast food and hospitality because of the lack of jobs in this country at the present time. So fast food and other hospitality jobs are generally not just entry level positions being filled by high school and college students on spring or summer break or in between or after classes, people who indeed naturally might not be independent because of their age and spot in life.

I’d also like to see how people who are worried about their next meal are going to “up their skill set”. Show me a person working two to three minimum wage or low paying jobs working twelve to sixteen hours a day are going to increase their skill set.
[/quote]

From age 10 onward, I grew up with my mom supporting us on a job at McD’s. Dad was out of work, mom had no marketable skills so that’s what was available. She started entry level and eventually worked her way into management, due mostly to outstanding work ethic and attention to detail. This is not a hypothetical for me. This actually happened. I appreciate and share your compassion and empathy for the less fortunate and I am a big believer in the equitable distribution of wealth.

We did with less (a lot less perhaps) than some, but I don’t remember my childhood being especially dismal or devoid of dignity. I never had the “right” clothes, the newest video game console, we didn’t eat out much and family holidays were non existant. However there was always a roof over our heads, the lights stayed on, and I never recall going to bed or school on an empty stomach. We sure as hell weren’t standing in bread lines or beholden to government assistance of any kind (beyond income related tax breaks/credits etc).

Flash forward to my adult life. I eventually was fortunate to find a trade that agreed with me (at least for the time being), and through work ethic and attention to detail I have climbed to near the top of my field, at an operational level. What I do is fairly risky, highly specialized and rather difficult. My earning potential is 100% dependent on what our clients are willing to pay for the volume of work I can accomplish per unit of time.

After 10 years I earn a little less than 3 times the minimum wage for my area. I have pretty much maxed out what I can make as an employee in the private sector in my profession and area. The actual revenue I generate for my company (not to mention the effort I put forth) is easily 3 times (probably closer to 5 or 7 times) that of the kid who always forgets to put the straws and napkins in my McD’s bag or the nice old guy who says “Hi” when I walk into Wal-Mart. Sorry, it just is. I’m not worth more on a basic human level, but on a financial level I am.

As I said earlier, forcing corporations to pay $15/hr for unskilled labour will, IMO, only end up hurting the middle class when inflation kicks in to pick up the slack. Mrs Jones will not be inclined to pay more for my services just because all the basics got more expensive. In all likelihood quite the opposite, and since the govenment can’t force her to pay, I’ll just end up getting the shaft. That is not really an equitable distribution of wealth either.

I accept that this is a bit overly simplistic and that the “free” market isn’t free at all. I don’t know what the answer is, but I don’t think a higher minimum wage is the socioeconomic panacea some people make it out to be.

[quote]aussie486 wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Addendum: I didn’t mean my sarcasm for anyone in particular. I just get riled up on this topic sometimes. I am not an expert but I have my own views on it. I apologize if it was too verbose. [/quote]

Mate, It was a great post.
[/quote]

Thanks!

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
McDonald’s can afford it.

[/quote]

Of course they can afford it. But unfortunately, if some bloated CEO does decide that his employees deserve some dignity and shouldn’t be in the pathetic position in which they have to go to the government for food and housing, he might not be able to build that new wing on his mansion or buy that new McLaren. A pity.

But wait, “companies exist to make a profit”. And, here comes my favorites: “No one owes anyone anything,” and, “What are you, a communist?” And can’t forget, “But if they get that increased wage, they thereby won’t be motivated to do something ‘better’”. AS IF someone initially aiming for med school, or perhaps even a mid-skilled position such as nursing or teaching, would not follow through because they can make fifteen bucks per hour buttering bagels.

Lovely.

I don’t believe every expense should be paid for simply because it can be afforded, but when it comes to keeping a human being alive I believe it should be so because a human being in America can’t remain alive on seven to eight bucks per hour without help from someone else.

But hey, I am letting my feelings get involved in this, feelings for people who need food and housing to stay alive, not just treating them as economic units to be overworked, used, and exploited, and who in turn have to rely on others and the government.

I personally have never faced poverty, have a decent profession, and am working on developing a spare time business, but I have a heart for those less fortunate than me and can empathize with their situations. The first time I saw a homeless man at age about seven years old, I could not get over the sight of him and needed my mom to calm me down later in the night.

This does not mean I condone people not pulling their own weight in nearly all cases. In my profession I am exposed on a daily basis to the blood suckers and parasites of this country, people who will never lift a foot or hand for anything! However, I am also exposed to many poor and unfortunate people who wound up in their situations to no fault of their own.

No one in their right mind believes fast food workers and dish washers should be paid the same as tradesmen, and mid to high skilled professionals, but it would be nice to see people not facing poverty–DANGEROUS poverty that is–because they do an honest job, whether that’s serving my cup of coffee, buttering bagels, flipping burgers, stacking shelves, or holding my table at a restaurant.

And the economic landscape in which thousands of qualified, upright, decent–albeit perhaps not the brightest or most talented but not stupid–American adults are now working in fast food and hospitality because of the lack of jobs in this country at the present time. So fast food and other hospitality jobs are generally not just entry level positions being filled by high school and college students on spring or summer break or in between or after classes, people who indeed naturally might not be independent because of their age and spot in life.

I’d also like to see how people who are worried about their next meal are going to “up their skill set”. Show me a person working two to three minimum wage or low paying jobs working twelve to sixteen hours a day are going to increase their skill set.
[/quote]

From age 10 onward, I grew up with my mom supporting us on a job at McD’s. Dad was out of work, mom had no marketable skills so that’s what was available. She started entry level and eventually worked her way into management, due mostly to outstanding work ethic and attention to detail. This is not a hypothetical for me. This actually happened. I appreciate and share your compassion and empathy for the less fortunate and I am a big believer in the equitable distribution of wealth.

We did with less (a lot less perhaps) than some, but I don’t remember my childhood being especially dismal or devoid of dignity. I never had the “right” clothes, the newest video game console, we didn’t eat out much and family holidays were non existant. However there was always a roof over our heads, the lights stayed on, and I never recall going to bed or school on an empty stomach. We sure as hell weren’t standing in bread lines or beholden to government assistance of any kind (beyond income related tax breaks/credits etc).

Flash forward to my adult life. I eventually was fortunate to find a trade that agreed with me (at least for the time being), and through work ethic and attention to detail I have climbed to near the top of my field, at an operational level. What I do is fairly risky, highly specialized and rather difficult. My earning potential is 100% dependent on what our clients are willing to pay for the volume of work I can accomplish per unit of time.

After 10 years I earn a little less than 3 times the minimum wage for my area. I have pretty much maxed out what I can make as an employee in the private sector in my profession and area. The actual revenue I generate for my company (not to mention the effort I put forth) is easily 3 times (probably closer to 5 or 7 times) that of the kid who always forgets to put the straws and napkins in my McD’s bag or the nice old guy who says “Hi” when I walk into Wal-Mart. Sorry, it just is. I’m not worth more on a basic human level, but on a financial level I am.

As I said earlier, forcing corporations to pay $15/hr for unskilled labour will, IMO, only end up hurting the middle class when inflation kicks in to pick up the slack. Mrs Jones will not be inclined to pay more for my services just because all the basics got more expensive. In all likelihood quite the opposite, and since the govenment can’t force her to pay, I’ll just end up getting the shaft. That is not really an equitable distribution of wealth either.

I accept that this is a bit overly simplistic and that the “free” market isn’t free at all. I don’t know what the answer is, but I don’t think a higher minimum wage is the socioeconomic panacea some people make it out to be.
[/quote]

I appreciate this moving and heartfelt post.

[quote]batman730 wrote:

I accept that this is a bit overly simplistic and that the “free” market isn’t free at all. I don’t know what the answer is, but I don’t think a higher minimum wage is the socioeconomic panacea some people make it out to be.
[/quote]

It’s not a panacea. The system as a whole has many holes in it. How to fix the entire situation is beyond me.

To all those that think that paying a living wage is a good idea, what do you think companies that went to that would do to the cost of living? Basic economic principal says that artificially inflating minimum wage would simply increase the cost of living and past history tells us that soon after it happened $15 would have less purchasing power than $7.25.

There is no way to fix the system because to many people at the bottom have no desire to better themselves. You cant help those that don’t want help. Decreasing government benefits would be one solution so that the incentive to work would be higher and the incentive to have children that you lay off on their grandparents while you draw a check to sit at home wouldn’t exist. When the government pokes its nose into things it breaks them, over and over again and when its really broken they immediately jump to more nose poking.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:
But maybe I’m taking it a whee bit too literally?[/quote]

Ha! Maybe just a bit. It’s all good. I just think there is more upward mobility in this country and time in history then pretty much any other. There is almost always opportunity.[/quote]

Have you ever done some research on the degree of poverty and food insecurity we have today?
[/quote]

No I haven’t. All I know is that using the terms poverty and America in the same sentence is tough for me to swallow.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]aussie486 wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Addendum: I didn’t mean my sarcasm for anyone in particular. I just get riled up on this topic sometimes. I am not an expert but I have my own views on it. I apologize if it was too verbose. [/quote]

Mate, It was a great post.
[/quote]

Not really.

Although I respect Brick as an e-friend his argument does not impress me. It is an economic “solution” based on emotionalism:

My compassion for others especially those not making what I deem a “living wage” causes me to lobby for the government – at the point of a gun – to dictate to business owners how they should run their businesses in regards to their labor force’s compensation.

A better solution would be for those with all that compassion to start businesses of their own and THEN pay their employees more than what they’re worth. The alternative – the nanny state – is a theft of freedom and merely gives a man a fish rather than teaching him to fish.[/quote]

Basically this.

Brick, your post was touching. I’ll give you that.

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
To all those that think that paying a living wage is a good idea, what do you think companies that went to that would do to the cost of living? Basic economic principal says that artificially inflating minimum wage would simply increase the cost of living and past history tells us that soon after it happened $15 would have less purchasing power than $7.25.

There is no way to fix the system because to many people at the bottom have no desire to better themselves. You cant help those that don’t want help. Decreasing government benefits would be one solution so that the incentive to work would be higher and the incentive to have children that you lay off on their grandparents while you draw a check to sit at home wouldn’t exist. When the government pokes its nose into things it breaks them, over and over again and when its really broken they immediately jump to more nose poking. [/quote]

Basically this as well.

[quote]Broncoandy wrote:
I want lower taxes, not cheaper big macs.[/quote]

This alone will raise the cost of living for the poor.